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Is Global Warming a Hoax?

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  1. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Nah he does care about learning just this is his way of going about doing it.
    If I wanted to learn, I'd study. I'm not very good at learning. I utterly infuriated some of my teachers at school. I was that cunt of a kid who was exceptionally bright but rejected any form of authority. The only teachers who could actually teach me anything were the ones I liked, the ones I bonded with.

    Nothing changed when I went to college. After two months of GCSE level physchology, I was demanding we studied Jung instead of Freud, because Freud was obviously a wrong 'un who had fucked up emotions towards his parents. On an unrelated note, check out whose grandson is a peedo. A Sir peedo, no less.

    I digress. If I don't like what I'm hearing, I won't learn anything, I'll just argue to amuse myself. Perhaps in the process of arguing, I learn something, but it's an accident when it happens.

    I'm not here to learn. I was, in the sense I came here to improve at poker. I stick around because arguing about shit is fun, and you guys are good sports. If it's not fun for you, don't indulge me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #452
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ah well sorry if I pissed you off that time.
    No worries; if you did, I got over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So it's true that 1/0 doesn't equal infinity? It makes sense to me that it doesn't, but I've seen it argued otherwise.
    1/x goes to 0 as x tends toward infinity.
    y/0 is undefined for all y.
    (Except sometimes using L'Hopital's rule)

    It's ambiguous use of language to say that anything can equal infinity. Infinity is not, strictly speaking, a number. It is a concept of unendingness. There are some uses of infinity as a number, e.g. in infinite sums, and some other cases, but those are usually additionally defined or constrained infinities which a textbook glazes over in one passing phrase. Usually, that phrase involves the word convergence.
  3. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Well being straight is similar to being gay as they are both sexual preferences therefore they are same. And as you're all a bunch of fags that's the first bit of evidence supporting ong.
    Savy trying to win the thread off poop? Close, but no cigar.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    You know the kind of funny where someone is trying to be funny but fails? Then you laugh at the fail?

    That's the level of funny you're on here.
    They're not the same thing?
  5. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    They're not the same thing?
    Yes, they're both funny, but the laughs are directed in an opposite direction. So yes there's an Ongdentity involved.
  6. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    No worries; if you did, I got over it.


    1/x goes to 0 as x tends toward infinity.
    y/0 is undefined for all y.
    (Except sometimes using L'Hopital's rule)

    It's ambiguous use of language to say that anything can equal infinity. Infinity is not, strictly speaking, a number. It is a concept of unendingness. There are some uses of infinity as a number, e.g. in infinite sums, and some other cases, but those are usually additionally defined or constrained infinities which a textbook glazes over in one passing phrase. Usually, that phrase involves the word convergence.
    Pretty much what I thought and also proves Ong is talking shit. All is good in the universe.
  7. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Yes, they're both funny, but the laughs are directed in an opposite direction. So yes there's an Ongdentity involved.
    Very much depends on what I was going for.
  8. #458
    Ong, the good news about the problem of induction is that it shows there's a > 0 chance of you making sense at some point in the future.
  9. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Very much depends on what I was going for.
    The good news for you is that there's a nonzero chance of you being funny.
  10. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ong, the good news about the problem of induction is that it shows there's a > 0 chance of you making sense at some point in the future.
    If this is true, then there's a >0 chance of me making sense now.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If this is true, then there's a >0 chance of me making sense now.
    We've already disproven that hypothesis, repeatedly.
  12. #462
    Yeah but what about now? Disprove it again, things might have changed. You can only disprove it by doing so over and over again, because you can't be certain that the method of disproval still applies.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #463
    Well your present goes on for infinity so we're still not in your future yet.
  14. #464
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017...to-us-schools/

    Do not speak of it!

    You might think that science would deserve a breather after all that, but it's not to be. Yesterday, Politicoreported that the staff of the Department of Energy's Office of International Climate and Clean Energy have been told to avoid using the term "climate change" at all. While a DOE spokesman denied that this was a formal policy, the directive allegedly was handed down in a meeting. Staff was told that the term would cause a "visceral reaction" among the new senior staff, including Department head Rick Perry.
    It's officially begun. Do not speak of the heresy that is climate change. DO NOT!
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


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  15. #465
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    SMH.

    Ostriches hiding their heads in the sand.
    I doubt that's a real thing for ostriches, but damn if it doesn't describe people.
  16. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    SMH.

    Ostriches hiding their heads in the sand.
    I doubt that's a real thing for ostriches, but damn if it doesn't describe people.
    http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/e...myths-toad.jpg
  17. #467
    I've mostly stayed out of the climate change debate, so I admit that I'm somewhat un-educated on the topic. But maybe someone in this thread can help clear up some nagging questions I have.

    Aren't glaciers supposed to melt?

    Wasn't most of the world covered in miles-thick ice at one point in time? All that ice melted without any help from coal power plants or car exhaust.

    Why is it that we've now decided the earth has the 'perfect amount' of ice on it, and suddenly we have to scramble to stop any more melting.
  18. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I've mostly stayed out of the climate change debate, so I admit that I'm somewhat un-educated on the topic. But maybe someone in this thread can help clear up some nagging questions I have.
    That's how I first approached this thread, too.

    What I've learned:
    The biggest problem is the cost-benefit analysis of taking action is a total unknown.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Aren't glaciers supposed to melt?
    As I was taught in Ethics class, "supposed to" is a moral assertion.
    I'm not sure what you're asking, unless you're stipulating that glaciers do as the glaciers' god(s) demand(s).


    Can you restate the question?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Wasn't most of the world covered in miles-thick ice at one point in time? All that ice melted without any help from coal power plants or car exhaust.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Why is it that we've now decided the earth has the 'perfect amount' of ice on it, and suddenly we have to scramble to stop any more melting.
    I don't think any credible person is citing the amount of ice as a part of their case.

    It kinda goes like this: The world changes climate all by itself. It usually does so mind-blowingly slowly. Since the rise of human civilization, the climate of the Earth has been changing at a not so slow rate.
    The data is astoundingly clear that the climate is changing, and warming. It is clear that the timing coincides with people's presence.

    It seems not-stupid to correlate those facts, but it is an assumption. This is a talking point of CC deniers.

    What is not at all clear is what portion of the warming is due to human impact and what amount was going to happen anyway in the Earth's natural climate evolution?
    This matters a huge deal, because if humans are barely affecting it, then nothing to really worry about, and inexpensive, non-intrusive changes fix our impact. If it's basically all us, or worse, more than us (e.g. if the Earth would have been cooling if not for our impact), then we have a serious problem to deal with, which will probably require intrusive changes to Earth culture.
  19. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If it's basically all us, or worse, more than us (e.g. if the Earth would have been cooling if not for our impact), then we have a serious problem to deal with, which will probably require intrusive changes to Earth culture.
    Why? Why is it a serious problem to deal with? Isn't a slightly warmer climate more suitable for human life anyway? Longer growing seasons, people leave their house more, etc etc etc.

    I guess there will be less real estate at sea level, but people can move.

    Also, in regards to dealing with this serious problem..
    A) What good is done if America passes all kinds of strict regulations on businesses designed to lessen their CC impact, but at the same time Russia, China, Mexico, and other industrialized nations do nothing? Wouldn't that just put US companies at a disadvantage for no reason? What purpose is served by that?

    B) I read somewhere that at the current rate of population growth, by the year 2600, there will be so many humans on earth that we would all have to stand upright, shoulder to shoulder, in order to all fit on land. Isn't it more likely that one of the other many, many, many, many consequences of overpopulation will force these 'intrusive changes to Earth culture', long before climate change does?
  20. #470
    B) I read somewhere that at the current rate of population growth, by the year 2600, there will be so many humans on earth that we would all have to stand upright, shoulder to shoulder, in order to all fit on land. Isn't it more likely that one of the other many, many, many, many consequences of overpopulation will force these 'intrusive changes to Earth culture', long before climate change does?
    This must be bollocks. There's an idea here that you could fit the entire population of the world on the Isle of Wight. A bit of googling tells me that this was probably true when the thought experiment was first posed nearly a century ago... but certainly not now. Still, you'd only need around four times that area to get the current population standing shoulder to shoulder. So, Greater London should do it.

    I realise we're talking 600 years in the future, and the population has soared in just the last century, but for the population to go from *crammed into Greater London* to *filling up the entire world*, well it seems very unlikely to me. Perhaps a mathematician can convince me otherwise, but I'd be surprised if rabbits can fuck that much.

    I agree with you though, in the sense that I feel like we're more likely to encounter more profound climate threats than the supposed warming we're currently experiencing. It's a matter of time before a volcano cools the planet for a decade or two. We all know about Yellowstone, that seems like a more serious climate threat than humans shitting out carbon.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This must be bollocks.
    Could be. But the idea came from someone alot more informed about science than I am.

    http://www.azquotes.com/quote/785018

    I believe he goes on to suggest that the electricity consumed by that many people would make the earth glow red instead of blue.
  22. #472
    "population doubling every 40 years"

    Yeah this is fucking ludicrous exponential growth, and at that rate yes I can see how that might happen. However, I really don't think we can sustain that kind of population increase. Current trends seem to hint that we'll be at 11 billion by 2100, which is way short of the required growth. For Hawking to be right, we'd need the population to be at 14 billion by 2060, then 28 billion by 2100.

    Hawking is talking out of his arse. In a stupid fake American accent, no less.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    "population doubling every 40 years"

    Yeah this is fucking ludicrous exponential growth

    Hawking is talking out of his arse
    I'm not sure where he's getting the 1.9% number, but I doubt he got it from his arse. A simple google inquiry told me that the most recent data for Earth's population growth is 1.1%. Which means that population doubles every 65-ish years.

    So if we're at 7.5 billion now, that's 15 billion by 2082, 30 billion by 2147, and so on.

    By 2600, at that rate, we'll have 3.8 TRILLION people on the planet.
  24. #474
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Why? Why is it a serious problem to deal with? Isn't a slightly warmer climate more suitable for human life anyway? Longer growing seasons, people leave their house more, etc etc etc.

    I guess there will be less real estate at sea level, but people can move.
    Because it's not the humans (with our ability to climate control the inside of buildings, i.e. our own environments) which are threatened by the rapid change.

    In general, I don't see the direct impact on humans as a real problem. We live in literally every climate on Earth from tropical rain forests to the icy desert of Antarctica. Climate doesn't slow us down in that regard.

    The changes will be in mass extinction of oceanic life and migration / extinction of many land-based flora and fauna.

    Eventually, survivors will adapt and speciate into new animals, but that is a slow process, and the expected extinctions will take hundreds of thousands of years to recover from, in terms of biological mass and diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Also, in regards to dealing with this serious problem..
    A) What good is done if America passes all kinds of strict regulations on businesses designed to lessen their CC impact, but at the same time Russia, China, Mexico, and other industrialized nations do nothing? Wouldn't that just put US companies at a disadvantage for no reason? What purpose is served by that?
    Whatever good would be, if you aren't considering it along with the bad, then your conclusions will be biased.

    ... for no reason? Whatever the answer(s) is/are to your first question provide the reason.
    Whether or not action is taken, there will be severe outcomes. No decisions made on this scale would "just" do anything. They will have vast and nuanced consequences, some of which will be dramatic for at least some people. Nothing which happens will be "for no reason" when we're talking national policies.

    The purposes served would be many and varied, some pleasant, and some not so much.

    (I feel like you are the student who comes to my office telling me they don't understand the homework, and when I ask them to show me what they have so far, they say, "I don't have anything." Well... come back when you know what you're confused about. I'll gladly explain to you what you don't understand, but if you're not even trying to understand, well... I can't learn for you.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    B) I read somewhere that at the current rate of population growth, by the year 2600, there will be so many humans on earth that we would all have to stand upright, shoulder to shoulder, in order to all fit on land. Isn't it more likely that one of the other many, many, many, many consequences of overpopulation will force these 'intrusive changes to Earth culture', long before climate change does?
    There are countless examples of human societies which go through booms and leveling off periods.
    There are 0 examples of human populations experiencing unmitigated exponential growth.

    Exponential growth happens when the resources are rich for the current population. When the population grows to consume the resources, then the growth rate slows or stops, sometimes bouncing up and down in cycles (think grasshopper / locust swarms). FYI Grasshoppers and locusts are the same species. When the resources are rich enough, the population changes form. Individuals dramatically increase in size and the population booms exponentially. Eventually, the swarm exhausts the resources in its immediate area and has to move. Sooner or later, the resources run out and the population experiences a dramatic reduction in numbers, and the newborn insects will not morph into the large size of locusts.

    ***
    Exponential growth is not the only expected behavior for a population over "long" time frames.
  25. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The changes will be in mass extinction of oceanic life and migration / extinction of many land-based flora and fauna.
    Sounds like you're saying there are no consequences to climate change at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    (I feel like you are the student who comes to my office telling me they don't understand the homework,
    God I hope that student punched you in the face.

    Ok Professor Fudgeknot, I'll rephrase the question. Would it be a practical application of government to pursue an agenda of taxes and regulations designed to reverse climate change? Does it matter that other governments won't also participate, therefore undermining your efforts in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Exponential growth is not the only expected behavior for a population over "long" time frames.
    No shit Sherlock. But your long-winded, dick-toned, soliloquy about the likelihood of exponential population growth doesn't answer the question.

    Of course I don't expect we'll ever see a day where people are standing shoulder to shoulder trying not to fall into the ocean. I expect something will slow or reverse population growth before that. Whatever that change is, it will have a corresponding change on climate if in fact, human population is the cause of climate change.

    So my point is, why do anything about climate change as long as population is growing? When population growth stops, so will climate change, no?
  26. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I'm not sure where he's getting the 1.9% number, but I doubt he got it from his arse. A simple google inquiry told me that the most recent data for Earth's population growth is 1.1%. Which means that population doubles every 65-ish years.

    So if we're at 7.5 billion now, that's 15 billion by 2082, 30 billion by 2147, and so on.

    By 2600, at that rate, we'll have 3.8 TRILLION people on the planet.
    Well this is way short of Howking's figure. I half arsed crunched his numbers, but didn't bother to post the workings. It was hundreds of trillions.

    He's definitely talking out of his arse. He's just throwing shock numbers out there because he knows that lots of people have immense respect for him, know he's very clever, and thus listen to him. He probably gets a hand job off a honey government employee in return for saying things like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #477
    Still though. I'm not much of a scientist, but I'm pretty sure that 3.8 trillion is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way more than the earth has the capacity for.

    Scientifically speaking
  28. #478
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    God I hope that student punched you in the face.
    You want me to come to physical harm for refusing to offer a student the illusion of education rather than actually educating them?

    more to the point:
    You want me to come to harm over some words you read on the internet?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Ok Professor Fudgeknot, I'll rephrase the question.
    You're upset with me for answering what you asked w/o personal interpretation, yet somehow I deserve insult over your poor wording?

    Don't bother re-phrasing. I see no evidence that you are interested in an adult conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    No shit Sherlock. But your long-winded, dick-toned, soliloquy about the likelihood of exponential population growth doesn't answer the question.
    The hypocrisy to call what I wrote those condescending things, while it is you, and not I, who uses condescending language is more than I care to humor.
  29. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    He probably gets a hand job off a honey government employee in return for saying things like this.
    (in electronic voice) "Oh baby, that's it. Work the head. I'm getting you a fellowship"
  30. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You want me to come to physical harm
    "Physical harm" is such a loaded term. Your offenses are not particularly egregious, but certainly deserving of temporary punitive physical discomfort.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    for refusing to offer a student the illusion of education rather than actually educating them?
    If you were actually educating him, don't you think he'd understand more than 0% of his homework?

    Ever consider that your students' griping might be a reflection on YOU?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You want me to come to harm over some words you read on the internet?
    YOUR words, reflective of YOUR attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You're upset with me for answering what you asked
    You did not answer what I asked. That's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    yet somehow I deserve insult over your poor wording?
    The wording was fine, you understood the question. You chose to split hairs over wording, just to be a dick.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I see no evidence that you are interested in an adult conversation.
    Is your definition of "adult conversation" one where you talk to everyone like they are children?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The hypocrisy to call what I wrote those condescending things, while it is you, and not I, who uses condescending language is more than I care to humor.
    Me: If exponential population growth is unsustainable, won't that fix climate change?
    You: Rather than answer the question, let me tell you why exponential population growth is unsustainable

    The only hypocrisy I see is that you call yourself an educator.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 04-03-2017 at 02:44 PM.
  31. #481
    Start off saying you know nothing about the subject yet pick a side anyway and argue the toss (rudely) with people when they try and explain things to you.
  32. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Still though. I'm not much of a scientist, but I'm pretty sure that 3.8 trillion is way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way more than the earth has the capacity for.

    Scientifically speaking
    Yeah I'm not going to argue against this. We'll reach critical mass long before 2600, assuming no Yellowstone event.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Start off saying you know nothing about the subject
    False. I said I've mostly stayed out of it, and am only 'somewhat un-educated'. I admit I'm no expert, but I'm a long way from "knowing nothing"

    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    yet pick a side anyway
    False again. I'm not even sure what you mean by "side". I agree that the data says the earth is warming. Now I want someone to tell me why I should give a shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    and argue the toss
    "argue the toss"? Is that a British phrase? Sorry, I don't speak toothless redcoat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    (rudely)
    He was being a stuffy bitch

    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    with people when they try and explain things to you.
    He didn't explain anything. He just elaborated on shit that I already knew which I can only interpret as a lame attempt at brain-flexing. I find that to be stuffy, and off-putting. Now he knows.

    I'm still waiting for anyone to explain to me why any human efforts to reverse climate change would be practical or effective.
  34. #484
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    ^^^^^^

    Sorry, I'm not a scientist, able to explain it to you. I just believe them.
  35. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by BankItDrew View Post
    ^^^^^^

    Sorry, I'm not a scientist, able to explain it to you. I just believe them.
    Believe what? All science seems to be saying is that "Earth is warming, and it's probably because of people". Ok, I believe them too.

    However, they don't seem to have any kind of practical or effective solution.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/...rk-in-epa.html

    Obama's expensive regulation wouldn't make a discernible difference. By 2030 -- if it met its goal -- it might cut global carbon emissions by 1 percent.

    The Earth will not notice.

    However, people who pay for heat and electricity would notice. The Obama rule demanded power plants emit less CO2. Everyone would pay more -- for no useful reason.
    This is my whole point. Combating climate change is not a practical application of government power
    Last edited by BananaStand; 04-05-2017 at 02:16 PM.
  36. #486
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    If one country out of 200ish can make a 1% dent without really even trying, that's a pretty good start? I don't think anyone's expecting the US to fix the global climate all by itself. What they should do, however, is their fair share.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  37. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    If one country out of 200ish can make a 1% dent without really even trying, that's a pretty good start? I don't think anyone's expecting the US to fix the global climate all by itself. What they should do, however, is their fair share.
    Major emphasis on the word "IF". Also, it's disingenuous to refer to the US as one country out of 200. We're responsible for way way way more than 1/200 of the world's carbon emissions, so in that sense, a 1% is not much of a start.

    I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that the US is responsible for a fifth, a quarter, or even a third of the world's carbon emissions. Therefore, if every other place in the world took the same measures as us, then the total global reduction would only be 3 to 5%.

    and in regards to "fair", how is it "fair" to force US companies to operate under oppressive regulations that put them at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace. Moreover, this doesn't even consider the unintended consequences of market forces. For example, as regulations increase the price of US goods, then demand for those goods will fall, and they will be replaced by cheaper foreign alternatives. That means the companies that are still polluting the most are now producing more. Doesn't that undermine the purpose of the regulations in the first place?
  38. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I've mostly stayed out of the climate change debate, so I admit that I'm somewhat un-educated on the topic. But maybe someone in this thread can help clear up some nagging questions I have.

    Aren't glaciers supposed to melt?

    Wasn't most of the world covered in miles-thick ice at one point in time? All that ice melted without any help from coal power plants or car exhaust.

    Why is it that we've now decided the earth has the 'perfect amount' of ice on it, and suddenly we have to scramble to stop any more melting.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-last-ice-age/

    <@:^)
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  39. #489
    It is real, and will be the death of mankind.
  40. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanDam View Post
    It is real, and will be the death of mankind.
    Yes... and no.

    Our habitats and eating habits will be altered, but we're not going extinct over any foreseeable amount of climate change.

    Humans live in every known environment on the planet and we've even made our own orbiting environments.

    So long as thermodynamics remains exploitable for energy sources and engines, we'll be able to make our own food and environments, no matter what happens to the Earth's climate.

    I'm not suggesting that this is a best-case scenario, but the notion that humans are threatened by climate change is superficial. Our economies will change (as they always do). The coastlines will change (as they always do). Plants and animals will become extinct and new plants and animals will speciate from those which are not extinct (as they always do).

    The questions we face are:
    How much that could be lost is precious to us?
    How much are we willing to sacrifice and spend to prevent that loss?
  41. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The questions we face are:
    How much that could be lost is precious to us?
    How much are we willing to sacrifice and spend to prevent that loss?
    If those questions are unanswered....should government be conducting policy as if they were answered?
  42. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If those questions are unanswered....should government be conducting policy as if they were answered?

    Nah, they shouldn't. They should just let the planet go to shit. Make it a water world first though, like Manaan. Going to the Maldives? Good luck finding them on the map, or take a submarine. Going to the Netherlands? Bring scuba gear.


    Paris Accords? Whole lot of paper good for wiping asses with. Carbon tax? Yet another tax I don't want to pay. If the whole planet goes to shit, then I won’t have to pay anyone any taxes anyway.


    Savy’s excellent comic explaining the situation precisely? https://xkcd.com/1732/ ? Whole load of crap.


    And in the meantime, let’s gag all research about it. Let’s not even talk about it. Take it off schoolbooks. Do not speak of it! Whatever “it” may be. Nothing to see here.


    Carry on.
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  43. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If those questions are unanswered....should government be conducting policy as if they were answered?
    Those type of questions are kind of the whole point of government.
  44. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Those type of questions are kind of the whole point of government.
    Uh, no.

    I mean. really....no

    You're a million percent wrong
  45. #495
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    ^I'd think security is very much the raison d'etre of a government, and climate change is very much a security issue, directly, financially and geopolitically.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  46. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Uh, no.

    I mean. really....no

    You're a million percent wrong
    Nah, he's right.
    <a href=http://i.imgur.com/kWiMIMW.png target=_blank>http://i.imgur.com/kWiMIMW.png</a>
  47. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    ^I'd think security is very much the raison d'etre of a government, and climate change is very much a security issue, directly, financially and geopolitically.
    Your language here is amusing. You "think" something that is not really disputed, while the questionable aspect, ie the threat to humans, is "very much" real.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Uh, no.

    I mean. really....no

    You're a million percent wrong
    I can only imagine you're disagreeing with the ways the government goes about doing this and their power to do such things. Either way what is the point of government then?
  49. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Your language here is amusing. You "think" something that is not really disputed, while the questionable aspect, ie the threat to humans, is "very much" real.
    I think it's entirely accurate. Whether security is a task for the government can be debated, but climate change having security implications can not.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  50. #500
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    http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-te...your-life.html

    Climate change is just a side topic here, but this is a good explainlikeimfive summary and altogether an awesome blog post (like everything on the site).
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  51. #501
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  52. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    I think it's entirely accurate. Whether security is a task for the government can be debated, but climate change having security implications can not.
    Well yeah we can debate the role of government, but 90%+ of people will agree that security is indeed part of their remit. Now while a similar percentage of people agree that climate change is happening, I don't think there's a common consensus that it is a security threat. I mean first we need to define security threat. Isn't a hindered economy a potential security threat? How much of a role does the economy play in keeping relative peace in the first world? How much damage can we afford to do to the economy to mitigate the threat of climate change, before we cause more damage?

    These questions are why I find your comment amusing. Sure you'll find people who don't think security is a job for government, but it's a small minority. Climate change is a can of worms, and when you use language like "security threat", it's rhetoric and is entirely up for debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #503
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    I understand what you mean and recognize it, I just disagree. Climate change is always a security issue, whether it's getting warmer or colder. Even if it isn't changing at the moment, possible changes always have security consequences, whether its 10 meters of either water or ice on top of New York, a billion global displaced people seeking refuge, loss of crops, natural disasters like droughts, floods or hurricanes etc. Now, whether those are an acute ongoing threat at the moment is another different question that could be debated. Although it really shouldn't.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  54. #504
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    For your consideration
    <a href=http://i.imgur.com/kWiMIMW.png target=_blank>http://i.imgur.com/kWiMIMW.png</a>
  55. #505
    Explain why you think that.
  56. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by acheter View Post
    Explain why you think that.
    Epic first post.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  57. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by acheter View Post
    Explain why you think that.
    I think we have found our wuf troll account.
  58. #508
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    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  59. #509
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    Current state of affairs.

    Conservative ad:




    Meanwhile, in Gotham City

    Trump Administration Is Removing Climate Change Research from Government Websites
    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?...&jumival=18871
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  60. #510
    The claims in that video seem kinda dubious. Is it really 97%? Makes sense that 97% of scientists agree that temps are rising, but I don't recall seeing any other source claim that 97% of scientists believe that humans are responsible. In fact, everything else I've seen on the subject suggests that is a major point of contention.

    Regardless of the level of consensus on the causes, science doesn't seem to be very close to any kind of impactful solution. Even the best efforts of government regulators can only hope to cut carbon emissions by virtually negligible levels. And those efforts are undermined by other nations who do not implement the same measures.

    So what's the point?

    I've asked this question now several times and no one seems to have an answer. If the causes of the problem are not even agreed upon, and the solutions to the problem have minimal impact, then is it a practical and logical for a single government to be expending time and resources working on this issue?
  61. #511
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey...climate_change

    There are plenty of potential solutions, from limiting emissions, carbon harvesting, cleaner energy etc. Just investing more in nuclear power would make a big change. Your argument seems to be that when you're in a car speeding towards a wall, if there's no time to stop the car completely why even bother braking. BTW, pretty much all other governments are doing their share, for example China has been pretty much exemplary.

    https://www.c2es.org/publications/ch...mate-agreement
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  62. #512
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    I'm certain that when you're ready and able to hear "the point," you will realize that it's been coming at you from all sides all along. You just don't feel it, so you probably think it's fake, or BS, or some attempt to trick you. It's not. It's just differences of opinion and where the weight is put on various characterizations of the facts.

    You have asked the question, and you have been told answers, you just think they're bad answers, so you don't remember them.

    Here:
    The point (well, a point) is that some people have conservative values and want to keep things the way they are or even make things the way they were.

    The fact is that the climate is changing. This will impact the environments of the world and the species those environments can support. Some species will likely go extinct. Coastlines will move, displacing communities. There are other consequences to climate change.

    These people who want to conserve the current status quo think that whether or not action is taken to effect change is not a business decision, but a moral one.

    The point, to them, is to not leave a trail of destruction behind us, as a species.
    (There are other points.)


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    It is always practical and logical for the largest human organizations to ponder the biggest human dilemmas.
  63. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    There are plenty of potential solutions, from limiting emissions, carbon harvesting, cleaner energy etc. Just investing more in nuclear power would make a big change.
    I don't think you can prove definitively that marginal reductions in pollution will reverse climate change.

    Your argument seems to be that when you're in a car speeding towards a wall, if there's no time to stop the car completely why even bother braking.
    Shitty analogy because it assumes that there are no side effects or unintended consequences of braking. If it doesn't matter whether you hit the wall at 100 mph or 95 mph (you're dead either way), then it seems that when it comes to braking, the only salient consideration would be for those side effects, or unintended consequences. Everything else is null.

    BTW, pretty much all other governments are doing their share, for example China has been pretty much exemplary.
    Just fuck off with this. If you believe this then you should pry open your skull with a screwdriver, scoop out your brain and bury it in the woods.

    China is a notorious polluter. If they happen to clean up alot, it's because they make such a big fucking mess in the first place. And their clean up efforts are no where near commensurate with the amount of pollution they produce.

    https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/ran...by_country.jsp
  64. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The point (well, a point) is that some people have conservative values and want to keep things the way they are or even make things the way they were.
    That's not what 'conservative' means. The word you're looking for is 'traditional'. 'The way the were' is a really broad and vague phrase. Once upon a time, the spot I'm sitting in right now was covered in over 5000 feet of solid ice. So who decides how far back we go to achieve "the way things were"? How are we determining what point in history had the 'ideal' climate?

    The fact is that the climate is changing.
    And it has been for kajillions of years. Why is it just a problem now?

    This will impact the environments of the world and the species those environments can support. Some species will likely go extinct. Coastlines will move, displacing communities. There are other consequences to climate change.
    So what? Saber tooth tigers are extinct. Woolly mammoths are extinct. Brontosauruses are extinct. Coastlines have been moving around forever. The egyptian pyramids weren't always in the desert you know.

    My point is that changes in nature can happen with or without man's intervention. That is the natural course of the earth's development. Is it even possible for man to stop those changes? If so, why would he want to?

    These people who want to conserve the current status quo think that whether or not action is taken to effect change is not a business decision, but a moral one.
    Fine. But that still doesn't answer the question as to why it should also become a function of government. People have moral opinions on all kinds of shit. Those morals only become policy through the exercise of representative government. We had an election and the guy who denies climate change won. It only follows that the government, under his administration, would cease government sponsorship of a minority moral opinion.

    If the tree-huggers want their moral opinion to become policy, they need to demonstrate how the US, as only one of nearly 200 nations on earth, can unilaterally affect climate change with it's own domestic policy. Otherwise, you're just choosing to crash your car into the wall at 95mph instead of 100mph. You're still dead. Except in the meantime, you're introducing costly and cumbersome regulations into your economy.

    The point, to them, is to not leave a trail of destruction behind us, as a species.
    (There are other points.)
    Let's be serious for a minute now. The only way that's ever going to happen is if somehow, about 3-4 billion people instantaneously drop dead, and the remaining people cease to expand their population exponentially.

    Where's the morality police now?

    It is always practical and logical for the largest human organizations to ponder the biggest human dilemmas.
    American hubris right there bro. I don't think US counts as one of "the largest human organizations".
  65. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I don't think you can prove definitively that marginal reductions in pollution will reverse climate change.
    That statement is so loaded you should be required a permit to wield it. No, _I_, as a non-a-scientist, can't _definitely_ prove that _marginal_ reductions will _reverse_ climate change. The actual scientists, however, have demonstrated that with current technology it's entirely possible to stop it from making the planet a shitty place to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Shitty analogy because it assumes that there are no side effects or unintended consequences of braking. If it doesn't matter whether you hit the wall at 100 mph or 95 mph (you're dead either way), then it seems that when it comes to braking, the only salient consideration would be for those side effects, or unintended consequences. Everything else is null.
    Clearly not everyone is going to die so 100mph is way exaggerated, maybe 40mph would be closer. Getting from 40mph to even say 20-30mph would be nice, and worth every penny imo. You do realize that there's an excellent chance that the possible costs of a runaway climate change far exceed any economical measures taken now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Just fuck off with this. If you believe this then you should pry open your skull with a screwdriver, scoop out your brain and bury it in the woods.

    China is a notorious polluter. If they happen to clean up alot, it's because they make such a big fucking mess in the first place. And their clean up efforts are no where near commensurate with the amount of pollution they produce.

    https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/ran...by_country.jsp
    Nice change of goal posts. The fact remains that other countries are doing what's agreed.

    http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/china.html
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  66. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Nice change of goal posts. The fact remains that other countries are doing what's agreed.

    http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/china.html
    They website you linked rates China below sufficient. Two posts ago you used the word 'exemplary'.

    How about you just give this shit up now before you embarass yourself too much.

    You can play with the stats all you want, but if you come up with any conclusion other than "China is a fucking ass-hole to the planet", then you're smoking some extra cheesy cheeba.

    If the US passes regulations that handcuff businesses, and leave them at a competitive disadvantage versus their Chinese counterparts, that drives demand away from US companies and toward the companies that pollute the most. That's probably a net-loss for the planet.

    Also, there's nothing affecting climate change more than overpopulation. Gas guzzling SUV's aren't killing the planet per se, it's just that there are too fucking many of them. If we could put 3 or 4 billion people into some kind of rocket and fire them into the sun, then the rest of us could let our cars idle 24/7 and it wouldn't matter a damn bit.

    So again, what's the fucking point of implementing measures that reduce the emissions that any individual produces, while at the same time the world is just producing more individuals. That's still a net loss for the planet.

    Overpopulation is the villain. That means China, (with it's 1.3 billion people eating, fucking, and shitting), is public enemy number 1.

    Going back to your speeding car analogy...

    The US and China are on the same planet. So it's like we're both in cars that are speeding toward a wall. We're both gonna crash and die in fiery violent wrecks. Inside the US car, we're looking for loose change to pay a toll booth. Inside the chinese car, they're doing hookers and blow while laughing at the stupid Americans who built a tollbooth on the road to destruction.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 05-03-2017 at 03:34 PM.
  67. #517
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    Waa and boohoo. China is exemplary because they're on track to meet their targets. If Trump ditches the CPP, US emissions will also start rising higher. China and USA combined release more carbon emissions than the next 25 biggest polluters combined, so yes it makes a big difference what the US does. And yeah, for sure China should and could be doing more, but at least they're doing something.

    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  68. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    [...]
    All of that just affirms my initial statement.

    To wit:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'm certain that when you're ready and able to hear "the point," you will realize that it's been coming at you from all sides all along. You just don't feel it, so you probably think it's fake, or BS, or some attempt to trick you. It's not. It's just differences of opinion and where the weight is put on various characterizations of the facts.
    You asked what the other side's point is and I told you a piece of it.
    You're not ready to hear it yet, or you are, and you do, and you continue to pretend you don't.
    Whatever.

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  69. #519
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    BTW re: population growth, that's most likely already slowing down. Current estimates say we'll hit 9 billion by 2050, but we probably won't exceed 10 billion, at least on this planet.

    Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    If we could put 3 or 4 billion people into some kind of rocket and fire them into the sun, then the rest of us could let our cars idle 24/7 and it wouldn't matter a damn bit.
    Nah, we'd just get warmer a bit slower. It took millions of years for mother earth to deposit all that juicy fossil fuel into the ground, and it takes us a couple centuries to dig it all up. If we keep doing it, whether it takes us 200 or 300 years total makes no difference. We need to stop doing it.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  70. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    China is exemplary because they're on track to meet their targets
    So was Enron
  71. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Nah, we'd just get warmer a bit slower. It took millions of years for mother earth to deposit all that juicy fossil fuel into the ground, and it takes us a couple centuries to dig it all up. If we keep doing it, whether it takes us 200 or 300 years total makes no difference. We need to stop doing it.
    Does not compute.

    Pandoras box is open on fossil fuels. You can't close it. We will never, ever, be in a position where "mother earth" is producing fossil fuel deposits at a rate that's at least as fast as the rate we're using it. Just...never.

    It's gonna run out sometime. The sooner that happens, the sooner we'll cease producing carbon emissions through the use of fossil fuels. Isn't that the ultimate victory for the planet?

    Wouldn't the greenest, most conservationist, most climate sensitive policy be to promote excessive and wasteful consumption and drive us to the inevitable conclusion as soon as possible?
  72. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You're not ready to hear it yet, or you are, and you do, and you continue to pretend you don't.
    I do hear it. My answer is "So what?"
  73. #523
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    I don't believe you hear it. If you heard it, you wouldn't need to ask that question.

    You would be asking other questions. Questions about how to adapt what you understand to the bits of truth in the other side's argument. Questions about what you believe with certain weight can be changed to a new weight which balances the information into a more informed position.
  74. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't believe you hear it. If you heard it, you wouldn't need to ask that question.
    No, I think it's an apt question.

    Extinct species? So what? Unless we're talking about people, chicken, or cows, then who fucking cares.

    Altered coastlines? So what? Move!

    Erratic weather patterns? Wear a jacket you pansy!
  75. #525
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    My suggestion is troll better. You went from a complete skeptic to "so what" in like 3 posts. Try to be more consistent.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

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