Game of Thrones TV Thread **HBO-Purists ONLY**

[BananaStand]

Gendry is a bastard, not a Baratheon.

If that mattered, then he wouldn't have to run from King's Landing in the first place.

The annulment and marriage of Prince "Ragger" that Gilly read about is dramatic irony for the audience, telling us that Jon was Rhaegar's trueborn Targaryen son

.
I get all that, but either it's a misdirection, or the writers really really really insulting our intelligence. Rheagar and Elia had kids. OBVIOUSLY their marriage was consummated. How the fuck could it be annulled? I'm not sure the citadel is going to just honor the declarations of a monk who spends most of this time writing down when he poops.

As the Baratheons were killing the Targaryens, Jon became the last living male Targaryen. This may come up in the show such that Dany will have a struggle with the fact that she is not the true Targaryen next in line to the throne.

Which is why they're either gonna hook up, or she's just gonna play the "fuck off I have dragons" card.

[wufwugy]

Interesting to note that Jon has always been the king of Westeros. He never sat the Iron Throne, but the King's Guard protected him at the Tower of Joy since he was their king. It's just that nobody knows he has been king all this time. Maybe they'll find out.

[BananaStand]

the King's Guard protected him at the Tower of Joy since he was their king.

Huh??

Viserys was still alive then

[wufwugy]

Heir apparent is firstborn of the firstborn. Siblings to the firstborn of the king do not have a claim after the firstborn once that firstborn has a son. Before the annulment, that was Aegon. After the annulment, that became Jon (real name could be Jaehaerys). Jon is the firstborn of the firstborn and has been the true king the entire show.

Fucking amazing.

[BananaStand]

Heir apparent is firstborn of the firstborn. Siblings to the firstborn of the king do not have a claim after the firstborn once that firstborn has a son. Before the annulment, that was Aegon. After the annulment, that became Jon (real name could be Jaehaerys). Jon is the firstborn of the firstborn and has been the true king the entire show.

Fucking amazing.

I understand that's the plot we're being fed, so I can't really argue with the accuracy of what you say. But you have to admit, there are some pretty big problems with that.

First, the timing is all messed up. How could the Kingsguard be left at the tower of Joy to guard the heir? Rheagar was alive when he left. He wasn't killed until the Battle of the Trident. Those Kingsguard SHOULD have been there. And if not there, they should have been guarding the pregnant queen and viserys. Instead of those two totally obvious and duty-bound options, they stayed at the ToJ to guard Lyanna's baby.

By the time Ned got there, the Battle of the Trident had already happened and Rheagar had been dead for at least as long as it took Ned to get from the Trident to Dorne. Yet, when Ned arrived, Lyanna was just then having the baby and died in childbirth. So when Rheagar left, he didn't know that the baby would be a boy. So it seems kinda tough to believe he would leave the Sword of the Morning behind to guard a bunch of broads.

The second problem, is the annulment itself. The Seven-god religion espoused by most people in Westeros, including the Targaryens, does not allow for annulments or divorces. I did a little google research and I guess in the books Rheagar just wanted a third kid to fulfill some crazy dream prophecy he had about his kids riding three dragons.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Rheagar's real family was still alive when he left the ToJ. They were still alive when he died at the Trident. And they weren't killed until AFTER Robert marched on King's Landing and took the Iron Throne. So how could Rhaegar even make a case for an annulment? He didn't NEED to remarry in order to produce a male heir.

I'm not seeing how an illegitimate annulment can produce a legitimate son.

[wufwugy]

Lots of stuff doesn't make sense. Such is a story that some weirdo (grrm) made up.

[boost]

Your points about the annulment are good, but it is pretendland, so it's not that much of a stretch, especially given how the show needs to tidy things up quickly. The book could take the same deus ex annulment direction but flesh it out so much more that it would actually be convincing. The show doesn't have this luxury.

As for where the Kings Guard having no business being with Lyanna, I think you're way off. Some of the Kings Guard were with Aerys (we know at least Jaime was), some may have been with Elia and her children, others on Dragonstone with the Queen, and that still easily leaves two or three to be guarding/under the command of Rhaegar. If we accept the annulment, it is perfectly plausible that his Kingsguard would see it as their duty to both follow a direct command from their prince, as well as guard Lyanna, who's now a princess and next in line to be queen, as well as their potential future king.

[wufwugy]

Ep 6 leaked via accidental airing on HBO Sweden iirc. You can find it online. It's gonna be a big one people are getting spoiled on. I watched it early due to people saying how spoiler heavy it is. There's already clickbait spoilers on youtube and stuff on facebook. So if you tend to come across those sorts of spoilers, I recommend watching it now.

[boost]

Thanks for the warning-- I think I'm going to follow suit.

I wanted to abstain, because I got one of those lame vague warnings from my ISP when I grabbed e04 for my friend who just moved and didn't have his internet/cable setup yet.. I'm pretty sure nothing ever comes of those, but it kinda feels like buying a reverse lottery ticket every time you get the notice.

[BananaStand]

Your points about the annulment are good, but it is pretendland, so it's not that much of a stretch, especially given how the show needs to tidy things up quickly.

Well now this is the crux of my criticism. Things wouldn't need to be tidied up if they weren't messy in the first place. What if, Jon and Dany defeat Cersei and the Night King, and then that's it. The end. Jon is warden of the north, which is huge now that it includes lands beyond the wall. Dany sits the Iron Throne. And there should be a nice little place for any characters still alive at the end.

Now, instead of that, we have to contend with the notion that Jon is actually the "rightful" king, but only if we accept some really roundabout nonsense.

Sorry Danearys, we all realize that you actually have the right family name. We all realize you've overcome all the requisite suffering and setbacks that a hero must overcome. We all realize you've spent the last 7 seasons maturing into a wise, just, and careful ruler. Your dragons are fucking awesome. You're hot as fuck. People like you. You raised the army. You fought the wars. You did all the work. But none of that matters because Jon has a penis, and you don't.

Why??

This had all better start making sense in future episodes. Otherwise, the writers have just done something that's nearly impossible to believe, for no significant reason. And the result of it, is that the fan-favorite character that everyone has been rooting for, gets totally marginalized and invalidated because "pretendland" has to remain historically accurate when it comes to the gender of heirs.

[wufwugy]

A prediction came true in the leaked episode. I don't think I said that prediction here though, so y'all safe.

[BananaStand]

Also, there is precedent for an heir to a kingdom coming out of order.

By all laws of Westeros, Theon is the only one with a rightful claim to the Iron Islands. Yet when it came time to claim that birthright, it was totally cool for him to pass it on to Yara. And then, despite Yara being Balon's descendant, Euron muscles in and takes over anyway.

So WTF??

And another thing....

Doesn't a successful rebellion kinda destroy any claim you have to the throne whatsoever? I mean, once Robert Baratheon sat in the chair, aren't the Targaryens toast at that point? They could have just killed Aerys and then replaced him with his wife as Queen Regent, with Viserys, or with Rheagar. By all accounts, Rheagar was actually a nice guy. But they didn't. The targaryens were de-throned and Baratheons took over.

If it's a matter of Law, then it seems that the next "rightful" king should be named Lannister. No?

Or, if not, then I still say Gendry has the best claim of anyone on the show

[boost]

Banana, if you haven't you should read, at the very least the wiki's regarding the War of the Roses. Historically, line's of succession do get incredibly messy, and there are cases where people seemingly have equal claims-- or the one with the best claim is the worst candidate, or the one with the worst claim has the biggest army, or any number of scenarios.

And in understanding the messiness of rules of succession you can understand a key theme of the books and therefore the show. If the plot does go the way you are worried it will go, we'll essentially be seeing Stannis' arc on steroids. It's not traditionally a satisfying arc, but on the contrary it is a really compelling arc for a series which consistently bucks the genre and overall literary trends as its modus operandi.

John becoming the reluctant ruler of all of Westeros has been foreshadowed for quite some time, and if he and Dany can sort this out in a peaceful way (likely marriage and co-rule), which would necessitate Dany coming back down to earth (which is great metaphorically, what with the dragons and all), it would be a beautiful arc.

We've seen time and again that self assured heroes and prophecies are hit and miss. People set off on their destiny, only to run into reality. Insomuch as Jon has set off on his destiny, it was to become a Ranger, and here he is, poised to rule all of Westeros as the reality that his destiny ran into head on.

Co-rule is the least sexist ending and the most devoid of cheese. A strong assertive laser focused woman with a kind, noble, humble man, together on the throne.

[BananaStand]

Co-rule is the least sexist ending and the most devoid of cheese. A strong assertive laser focused woman with a kind, noble, humble man, together on the throne.

Sorry man, I'm just not seeing it. Sure, it's a plausible ending, but "least sexist"? I don't think so.

John doesn't seem like he wants to be king. He hasn't put in a lick of effort towards that end. He had never even been south of The Neck before visiting Dragonstone. And now he gets to leapfrog everyone in the realm, and occupy a co-throne, just because he has a dick?? Dany has to surrender half of what she's earned just because she doesn't have a dick? That's the MOST sexist ending I can think of.

[boost]

I think I may have sprained an eye muscle with the force with which they were rolled after reading you claim that the only reason he'd be on the throne is "just because he has a dick" for the millionth time. If that's all you see in his character, then I'm not really interested in bringing you up to what I think is speed. But if you want to stop spazzing and reread my posts, you'll see that none of it has anything to do with him having a dick. If he were a she, the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she'd have an equally better claim.

[BananaStand]

I think I may have sprained an eye muscle with the force with which they were rolled after reading you claim that the only reason he'd be on the throne is "just because he has a dick" for the millionth time. If that's all you see in his character, then I'm not really interested in bringing you up to what I think is speed. But if you want to stop spazzing and reread my posts, you'll see that none of it has anything to do with him having a dick. If he were a she, the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she'd have an equally better claim.

If you're suggesting that gender doesn't play a significant role in the determination of birthrights, then I have an equally massive eye-roll for you. If Jon were a she, I doubt very much that anyone, ever, would talk about 'her' having a claim to the throne. Compared to Dany, who has the army, and the experience, to rule, Jon-ette wouldn't even be worth a whisper. Even if Jon-ette had risen to lord commander of the Night's watch, led the free folk, defeated the night king, and become a legendary hero of Westeros....it wouldn't matter. In a contest between Jon-ette and Dany, the throne would be Dany's without a second thought. You're out of your mind if you don't think Jon's balls are tipping the scale at least a little bit. The fact that people are talking about the possibility of Jon as King....is complete proof of that.

Besides, you were the one who brought up which endings would be more or less sexist. So don't rail on me for commenting.

And my original complaint stands. Neither of these people has what I would consider a "legitimate" claim to the throne. Robert overthrew Aerys....the Targaryens are toast. Period. No Targaryen has any claim to anything until the Lannisters are overthrown. If Jon has a role in that, then he may be able to make some kind of claim. But he hasn't even hinted at contributing at all.

So explain to me.....what would be the basis of Jon's claim to the Iron Throne?

As far as I can tell, the only thing differentiating Jon's claim from Gendry's is a barely believable and intelligence-insulting annulment. And it only connects him to the guy who LOST the war. Gendry has the blood of the winners.

We can debate which of those two should be higher on the list, but it's really moot because neither of them would have a shred of a prayer to contest Dany if she happens to overthrow Cersei.

Look man, here's what I'm saying: All the show needs to do is have Dany overthrow Cersei, have Jon defeat the Night King, and the end. Somewhere along the way I expect Jamie will die defending Cersei somehow. I expect Tyrion to kill Cersei. I expect Arya to kill Little Finger. And the Cleganes need to fight each other. Then Dany assumes the Iron Throne, Jon is warden of the expanded North. And finally, two of the dragons need to fuck then lay eggs. End of show.

This whole "Jon might be king" tangent is annoying. It's doubly annoying since it's supported by such absurd and non-sensical logic, at the center of which, is an annulment that can't possibly be believed.

[Jack Sawyer]

LOL theories

Now Bran is the night king

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/4254...an-night-king/

[wufwugy]

I think this may be the origin of the theory:



I think it may be true.

[Jack Sawyer]

O/U on how many episodes until we see some aunt-fucking?

AILF action

I put it on 3

[boost]

If you're suggesting that gender doesn't play a significant role in the determination of birthrights, then I have an equally massive eye-roll for you. If Jon were a she, I doubt very much that anyone, ever, would talk about 'her' having a claim to the throne. Compared to Dany, who has the army, and the experience, to rule, Jon-ette wouldn't even be worth a whisper. Even if Jon-ette had risen to lord commander of the Night's watch, led the free folk, defeated the night king, and become a legendary hero of Westeros....it wouldn't matter. In a contest between Jon-ette and Dany, the throne would be Dany's without a second thought. You're out of your mind if you don't think Jon's balls are tipping the scale at least a little bit. The fact that people are talking about the possibility of Jon as King....is complete proof of that.

Besides, you were the one who brought up which endings would be more or less sexist. So don't rail on me for commenting.

And my original complaint stands. Neither of these people has what I would consider a "legitimate" claim to the throne. Robert overthrew Aerys....the Targaryens are toast. Period. No Targaryen has any claim to anything until the Lannisters are overthrown. If Jon has a role in that, then he may be able to make some kind of claim. But he hasn't even hinted at contributing at all.

So explain to me.....what would be the basis of Jon's claim to the Iron Throne?

As far as I can tell, the only thing differentiating Jon's claim from Gendry's is a barely believable and intelligence-insulting annulment. And it only connects him to the guy who LOST the war. Gendry has the blood of the winners.

We can debate which of those two should be higher on the list, but it's really moot because neither of them would have a shred of a prayer to contest Dany if she happens to overthrow Cersei.

Look man, here's what I'm saying: All the show needs to do is have Dany overthrow Cersei, have Jon defeat the Night King, and the end. Somewhere along the way I expect Jamie will die defending Cersei somehow. I expect Tyrion to kill Cersei. I expect Arya to kill Little Finger. And the Cleganes need to fight each other. Then Dany assumes the Iron Throne, Jon is warden of the expanded North. And finally, two of the dragons need to fuck then lay eggs. End of show.

This whole "Jon might be king" tangent is annoying. It's doubly annoying since it's supported by such absurd and non-sensical logic, at the center of which, is an annulment that can't possibly be believed.

You're using the annulment as a lynch pin that it is not. You're doing this because you find it distasteful that the story might go in a direction that doesn't serve your ideas about fairness.

In the same way that any ending in which Dany is not the supreme leader of Westeros bothers you, I'm skeptical of any ending that's essentially "lolallweneededwasawoman!"not being absolutely one dimensional and ill fitting for this show. I could be wrong, and I could find a Dany-wins-it-all ending satisfying, but it seems all too straight forward. Again, themes of unfulfilled prophecy, destiny detoured, and so on have been packed into this series.

[Jack Sawyer]

I think this may be the origin of the theory:



I think it may be true.

So Jamie almost saved the entire world back in season 1

Jamie Quasi Godslayer

[BananaStand]

You're using the annulment as a lynch pin that it is not.

How is it not a lynch pin? Revealing that fact dramatically changes the trajectory of the main character's story arc.

You're doing this because you find it distasteful that the story might go in a direction that doesn't serve your ideas about fairness.

It really has nothing to do with fairness. It's more about consistency. Does the 7-God religion allow annulments, or not? If the answer is no, then it's no. But what we're being told is that the answer is "no, except when it helps us milk an extra season out of the show". It's insulting to the viewer's intelligence.

Are you familiar with the phrase "jump the shark"?

In the same way that any ending in which Dany is not the supreme leader of Westeros bothers you, I'm skeptical of any ending that's essentially "lolallweneededwasawoman!"not being absolutely one dimensional and ill fitting for this show

You must be watching a different show. If "lolallweneededwasawoman" were the goal here, then the show would be over today. Cersei already broke the glass ceiling. And if you think Dany winning it all is "one dimensional" then again, you must be watching a different show. We've spent 7 seasons following her from adolescence and watched her mold her self into a mature, just, and careful ruler. She could jump on the back of Drogon and conquer the whole world TODAY if she wanted to. We've watched for years now as circumstances have tried to deter her from the high road over and over and over again. She has wavered, learned from her mistakes, made sacrifices and demonstrated incredible wisdom at almost every juncture. She is clearly the one best suited to rule, and it's not even close.

Giving Jon a piece of that....seems pretty one-dimensional. Sword-wielding hero fights war and claims throne....haven't we hard that one already??

I could be wrong, and I could find a Dany-wins-it-all ending satisfying, but it seems all too straight forward. Again, themes of unfulfilled prophecy, destiny detoured, and so on have been packed into this series.

Fair enough, but that's not a reason to take the plot through twists and turns that border on absurdity. Maybe Dany doesn't win it all. Maybe she dies in battle. Bummer ending, but reasonable. Maybe she wins it all and then says "Jon, you keep the seat warm for me, I'm gonna ride out the winter in Essos where the weather is nice". Maybe she wins it all and then destroys the iron throne, returning the realm to the original 7 kingdom structure it had before Aegon. Maybe she has a kid with Jon before she dies and Jon has to raise the kid to be king. Maybe they have a kid, then Jon dies, and she has to raise Jon's son to be the next King.

There are lots of possibilities that do not include Dany just surrendering half of what's she's worked for to Jon just because we found out about some silly annulment buried in some poop jokes.

[boost]

It's a forced lynch pin because it's an easy pill to swallow if you aren't so emotionally caught up in the potential ramifications.

There are a lot of plausible ways this could work, we really don't know enough about Westerosi laws and customs to definitively say Rhaegar could or couldn't do this. Taking real world examples, we do know that it was not at all uncommon for Royalty to pull stuff like this, of course with varying degrees of difficulty depending on the era, specific place, and specific circumstances.

It's a forced lynch pin of Jon's (potential) story arc because we simply don't know enough. If it is in fact the weak link that's holding this all together, then you can dismiss all the things it supports-- the things which don't conform to your idea of the story they should be telling.

Like so many other things, I think the books (if they go in this same direction) will easily sell this as convincing, however the show probably just doesn't have the screen real estate to spare. If that's the case, I'm happy that they're doing their best to adhere to the overall vision of GRRM, even if it means taking a few shortcuts and stretching our suspension of disbelief a bit to get there.

[BananaStand]

Are we supposed to feel bad for Danaerys and her dead dragon?

I don't. She had three of the fucking things and only ever used one. If the other two were a little more battle-tested, maybe one of them wouldn't be dead. She should have known better than to bring rookies on this mission.

[wufwugy]

I only feel kinda bad for the dragon, not Danaerys.


Theory time: the Lord of Light is false. The prophecies are false. The visions in the flames are false. The visions have been sent through the flames by the Night King and/or Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest to manipulate the humans into getting a dragon north of the Wall so that the NK could kill and revive it and burn down the Wall with it. There is no Prince Who Was Promised. The Night King is either hellbent on destroying humans or on restoring a pact with them.

I'm not sure how to fit Bran into this. I do think Winter will be defeated but that the how is not foretold from prophecy.

[BananaStand]

I can definitely see the NK as a closet good guy. It seemed to be heading that way ever since we saw him get "born".

Did anyone else notice that the NK looks a little different this season? I feel like I've been seeing some Bran-ish features.

[wufwugy]

Different actor than Hardhome. Does look Brannish.


I revise my theory somewhat. I think BR was sending all the Lord of Light visions and reviving Jon/Beric via sending souls stored in weirwoods back into their bodies. The NK is a part of the weirwood hivemind and has been intercepting the messages, which is how he thought prepping for a dragon would be a good move.

I don't know what I think about the BR/NK working together idea or the Bran/NK relationship. Need a couple more pieces of information to put those together.

[wufwugy]

It could be that the NK has taken over the weirwood hivemind and the whole thing has turned parasitic with the goal of attracting more human souls. NK has some super warging power where he can reanimate and control without returning souls.

Note that the Starks are buried in the crypt. There apparently was some pact a long time ago where I think the Stark bodies were to be given to the weirwoods. The breaking of the pact could be why the NK is returning.

[wufwugy]

Or maybe BR could return the souls to Jon/Beric because they weren't captured in the weirwood hivemind yet. That can explain Jon had no memory of anything while dead.

[BananaStand]

sorry, who's "BR"?

[wufwugy]

bloodraven

[wufwugy]

bloodraven was brynden rivers, a bastard of a targaryen. he was banished for reasons unknown. he is the three eyed raven

some think he has been secretly working against bran all this time. i think it may be most likely that he is essentially on team human, but maybe not

[JKDS]

I like the idea of bran being the Lord of light.

[baudib]

I've always been on Team Daenerys but I think the odds of someone other than her sitting on the Iron Throne at the end of the show are increasing.

Some sort of twist ending with Sansa or Jon or Tyrion or Arya sitting on the Throne, or the NK killing all of humanity, might be pretty good/satisfying.

There was obviously a lot of talk about her line of succession and the fact that Dany can't (won't?) have children, and there are suddenly a lot of people in the picture with some sort of reasonable claim to the throne.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in Westerosi law and I'm skeptical of anyone else who claims to be, but I guess that the claimant with the strongest army wins out, generally. For instance, it is well known (I think) that Robert had many illegitimate children; it's not really a secret that Joffrey/Tommen weren't his children. House Baratheon has to have some survivors, I'm not sure how Cersei can legally lay a claim to being the ruler of Westeros, other than the fact that she was the de factor ruler under Tommen and the Lannister army follows her orders.

[wufwugy]

Could be a fake out. Could be Jon gets her preggers.

[baudib]

yeah well I'm hoping this whole Arya-Sansa tension thing is a fake out. Sansa is too smart to get played by Littlefinger and if Arya is really this mad at Sansa for ~ no reason, I'll be really fucking annoyed.

[JKDS]

Sansa is not smart though. The series leveled her up randomly in season six, but she's still dumb.

[wufwugy]

Bran is watching (caws in the background of every LF scene).

Arya giving the dagger to Sansa might be code.

Honestly I don't have much opinion on the Sansa/Arya thing since I have hate the scenes so much I've been skipping them on rewatch. I just really fucking hope that Arya doesn't wear LF's face after he dies in order to keep the Vale around. Love the Faceless Men assassin thing but hate the face changing.

[wufwugy]

An issue with analyzing this show is that D&D and the directors sometimes do irrational things and lots of stuff from previous seasons is treated as non-existent. Example: Arya met LF before when she was serving Tywin and LF was talking about siding with the Lannisters. Does current Arya remember this? Who knows. Sometimes D&D incorporate past knowledge, sometimes not.

One thing that has me wanting to say the Sansa/Arya beef is a charade is that D&D are very aware of fan criticisms and they try to correct for them. One of the biggest criticisms last season was the whole Arya/Wolverine ordeal of her being flat out retarded and getting stabbed and healing rapidly etc

[wufwugy]

I defo like the theory that Arya is acting. She did train acting a whole bunch.

[baudib]

Sansa is not smart though. The series leveled her up randomly in season six, but she's still dumb.

I disagree pretty strongly. At the very least, I don't think that's going to be proven true. Sansa is going to end up outmaneuvering almost everyone and/or making the key decision that will save the day. Her arc wouldn't make sense otherwise, IMO.

[JKDS]

It doesn't make any sense though. Cersei was at least mentored by tywin for forever. Sansa spent her days knitting, and then getting tortured. She's no mastermind, and we can see that as she undermines Jon in front of all the northmen, and appears to trust the man who helped kill her father more than Arya. And sending briene away, because Arya needs protection...

I think she's gonna screw everything up, because there's no such thing as happily ever after. Hers is the story of make believe, and I think she's going to get continually punished for it. Much like theon will never be redeemed.

[wufwugy]

I sort of agree with both of you. One thing I will add is that the show doesn't do nuance the way GRRM does. Instead it uses shock value. For example, characterizations in the books often foreshadow a twist to come, yet those characterizations are gone in the show and the twist to come is more of a shock. I think we could see shocking twists that are hard to spot because the show is deliberately setting things up that way. But really I have no clue.

[BananaStand]

Remember when Sam killed a white walker with dragonglass. He kinda blindly stabbed, grazed the walker, and then the walker shattered into a jillion icy bits. The same thing happened when Jon killed one with Longclaw's Valyrian steel blade.

So it doesn't appear that the location of the blow, the power of the strike, or the severity of the injury means a damn thing. All you gotta do is score a hit, and some magical reaction makes the bad guys explode.

Jon's got a mountain of dragonglass. How does ice-dragon stand a chance? One volley of arrows and Viseyron-z becomes nothing more than a rain of ice cubes, no?

[wufwugy]

Could be. But they won't know about the undead dragon until after he burns down the wall.

If I'm writing the finale, I probably have the second to last scene be Dany scorching the Red Keep because Cersei double crossed and killed/imprisoned everybody who meets her. And the last scene to be the undead Viserion burning down the wall and the walkers and army marching through.

[baudib]

It doesn't make any sense though. Cersei was at least mentored by tywin for forever. Sansa spent her days knitting, and then getting tortured. She's no mastermind, and we can see that as she undermines Jon in front of all the northmen, and appears to trust the man who helped kill her father more than Arya. And sending briene away, because Arya needs protection...

I think she's gonna screw everything up, because there's no such thing as happily ever after. Hers is the story of make believe, and I think she's going to get continually punished for it. Much like theon will never be redeemed.

I mean every scene Sansa has been in for two seasons has indicated her growing intelligence/cunning/ruthlessness. She learned from her father and especially learned from his mistakes (her words); tells Jon he should listen to her in war planning meeting before BoB, and she is proven correct as they get slaughtered until KotV show up; she learned from Cersei and Littlefinger; her maester comments on how wise she is, etc.

[baudib]

Remember when Sam killed a white walker with dragonglass. He kinda blindly stabbed, grazed the walker, and then the walker shattered into a jillion icy bits. The same thing happened when Jon killed one with Longclaw's Valyrian steel blade.

So it doesn't appear that the location of the blow, the power of the strike, or the severity of the injury means a damn thing. All you gotta do is score a hit, and some magical reaction makes the bad guys explode.

Jon's got a mountain of dragonglass. How does ice-dragon stand a chance? One volley of arrows and Viseyron-z becomes nothing more than a rain of ice cubes, no?

I think Viserion is a dragon wight not a white walker. The distinction being that WWs were made by CotF (and Craster's babies who are turned) and wights are dead raised by WWs (they're all skeletons or zombies). WWs are clearly sentient to a point.

I'm slightly uncertain though because Vis' eye turned blue the way the babies did but it could just be for dramatic effect.

[wufwugy]

It's also how he raised him. Touching the face is how he walker'd the baby. But raising his arms is how he wighted an army.

[BananaStand]

I mean every scene Sansa has been in for two seasons has indicated her growing intelligence/cunning/ruthlessness. She learned from her father and especially learned from his mistakes (her words); tells Jon he should listen to her in war planning meeting before BoB, and she is proven correct as they get slaughtered until KotV show up; she learned from Cersei and Littlefinger; her maester comments on how wise she is, etc.

I'm not seeing it. If she had an IQ higher than her shoe size, Littlefinger would be dead.

She's still against Jon making an alliance with Umbers and Karstarks even though zombies are about to eat the whole world.

And her insight in the BoB seems like too little too late. It was her idea to start that battle in the first place. John could have declared himself "King in the North" from Castle Black. He didn't really need winterfell. Or, if anything, he didn't need it right then. He certainly had bigger fish to fry

[wufwugy]

Jon never delcared himself dakingindanorf. he got it from hs bravery in the botb and from teh shame of other northern lords not backing him

[baudib]

yeah I mean if there's one thing that's certain, the northern lords are all basically worthless except for Lyanna Mormont, who probably represents the smallest fiefdom but is the bravest and smartest of them all (not saying much).

Sansa is 100% going to make the crucial play somewhere along the way, for good or ill, and to her own gain.

Because of its strategic/symbolic importance, whoever controls Winterfell basically controls the North, you can't "rule" it in absentia.

[BananaStand]

I've been re-watching some past seasons, and I'm midway through season 6. This is when we start to see the change in Sansa. But from what I can see (having just watched these episodes in the last few days) Sansa isn't smarter or more cunning. She's just colder and more cynical. She used to be all flowery and optimistic imagining gallant lords and fair princesses...yada yada yada.

Now she seems to expect more cruelty from the world. And while that's certainly a more mature perception, it's not necessarily a sign of intelligence.

[wufwugy]

i tend to think that the issue with sansa is execution from showrunners. my analysis from the beginning was always that she is on a long arc from naive pawn to smart player, but the execution of that arc is pretty bad.

she does make sense as a purely tragic figure too tho. like, if she's on an arc where she *should* becoming a player but simply doesn't because life is tragedy and she gets fucked or is fucked.

[JKDS]

I want the latter.

In other news, people be suspecting cleganbowl is coming. Perhaps even next episode now that hound is temporarily with Danny and they're meeting cersei

[boost]

Did I miss it, or was absolutely no reason given for the Hound falling in with Dany? If it's the latter, seems like Cleganebowl is a lock.

[wufwugy]

I assume he's with Jon. They bonded in blood, he's got nowhere else to be, and he's always finds ways to hang out with Starks.

Cleganebowl happening status: it's.

[wufwugy]

The Hound his own damn self fucking confirmed Cleganebowl! Gonna be the series finale! Jaime's racing to get the best seat! Night King bringing the ice cold brews! Ya cunts!

[JKDS]

I'm concerned that Tyrion isn't playing true to dragon lady. Is he gonna betray her for family?

I'll give Sansa a point for this episode. I still hate her though.

[Jack Sawyer]

O/U on how many episodes until we see some aunt-fucking?

AILF action

I put it on 3

God damn, should have taken the under

[Jack Sawyer]

Benjen and Bran Stark hold the key as to the fate of the kingdoms ...


Edit: fuck. I read one thing about some warrior and all is now spoiled to me. Fuuuucckkk


Should have sticked to my nonsensical B & B Stark theory

[oskar]

Could be. But they won't know about the undead dragon until after he burns down the wall.

If I'm writing the finale, I probably have the second to last scene be Dany scorching the Red Keep because Cersei double crossed and killed/imprisoned everybody who meets her. And the last scene to be the undead Viserion burning down the wall and the walkers and army marching through.

Pretty good.

[BananaStand]

I expect Arya to kill Little Finger.

Called it!

Is it me, or do the dragons look faker in every episode?

[oskar]

nice. I did not see that one coming. I thought LF would make it to the end for sure. The finale was a mixed bag for me. I did not care for the fanservice meet and greet at the start. It was too much of: Look at all those zany characters! You know all those characters! Obv Dani and Jon had to smash. Obv undead dragon had to melt the ice wall... I would have appreciated a Family Guy moment where the dragon starts blasting the wall and nothing happens. He blasts it again and a couple of drops form and trickle down and then we cut to the next day with an annoyed army of the dead and an exhausted dragon.
But then the Sansa/Arya twist and Cercei not being able to off Tyrion was pretty great.

[boost]

I think this is great television and bad Game of Thrones. So I'm just enjoying the watch and letting myself be giddy every time they dish up fan service. With that being said, allow me to put my thinking cap on:

What was the Hounds line to Gregor supposed to mean? Are we just to assume he was saying some lame religious shit? That seemed like a pretty big dud.

Also, they really needed GRRM to write these-- there are far too many characters with far too many connections in that scene, and there's a lot of a lot that goes unsaid that would 100% be said.

Like, Joffrey died and the Hound disappeared, and everyone is just like "oh, cool, he just is with these guys now and wants to have a little chat with his brother real fast."

Also, what the fuck is Cersei's plan here? If she didn't want to go North, why not just agree to the truce and avoid the double crossing? You don't think that they'll notice the lack of Lannisters in the North in a week? It's like D&D have gotten pretty good at GRRM level scheming, but they're applying great scheming to a shitty plan.

Also, what the hell is the outline of the next season going to be? Jaime can no longer Queenslay Cersei, which removes a great ending to both their arcs, and the White Walkers seemingly need to be dealt with mid season (or earlier?) to give time for everything to wrap up. That seems awkward.

[oskar]

Yeah, some awkward writing at the start there. "You know what's coming for you. You've always known"... wut?
"Theon, I have your sister. If you don't submit to me here and now, I'll kill her"... wut?
And then Euron goes from superjerk to full retreat mode in the same scene. That didn't seem to fit his character... even if it did, why announce it? Why not just save face and then no call no show. Would seem more in line with his personality.

[wufwugy]

I think this is great television and bad Game of Thrones. So I'm just enjoying the watch and letting myself be giddy every time they dish up fan service. With that being said, allow me to put my thinking cap on:

What was the Hounds line to Gregor supposed to mean? Are we just to assume he was saying some lame religious shit? That seemed like a pretty big dud.

Also, they really needed GRRM to write these-- there are far too many characters with far too many connections in that scene, and there's a lot of a lot that goes unsaid that would 100% be said.

Like, Joffrey died and the Hound disappeared, and everyone is just like "oh, cool, he just is with these guys now and wants to have a little chat with his brother real fast."

Also, what the fuck is Cersei's plan here? If she didn't want to go North, why not just agree to the truce and avoid the double crossing? You don't think that they'll notice the lack of Lannisters in the North in a week? It's like D&D have gotten pretty good at GRRM level scheming, but they're applying great scheming to a shitty plan.

Also, what the hell is the outline of the next season going to be? Jaime can no longer Queenslay Cersei, which removes a great ending to both their arcs, and the White Walkers seemingly need to be dealt with mid season (or earlier?) to give time for everything to wrap up. That seems awkward.

Yup.

Regarding your last point, I think with their magic jetpacks they can kinda do whatever they want with things. Could take the Night King 4 eps to reach Winterfell while Dany flies to Ulthos and back.

[wufwugy]

Yeah, some awkward writing at the start there. "You know what's coming for you. You've always known"... wut?
"Theon, I have your sister. If you don't submit to me here and now, I'll kill her"... wut?
And then Euron goes from superjerk to full retreat mode in the same scene. That didn't seem to fit his character... even if it did, why announce it? Why not just save face and then no call no show. Would seem more in line with his personality.

No man is as accursed as the hypeslayer.


On a serious note, the Hound/UnMountain scene was one of the most poorly done of the entire show. I still love it because FUCKING CONFIRMED but objectively it needed to be rethought/redone

[wufwugy]

What he means by "you've always known" is that he's always known that his little brother he burned over a toy was eventually gonna put him down. It's consistent and the dialogue is fine. The editing of the scene was just....off. I never would have thought that's how the writers would manage their interaction. Hound quietly walking across the platform to face off, just, no.

[wufwugy]

Sansa killing LF was heavily foreshadowed in the books. I'm glad it happened now instead of drawing it out til next season. Very unhappy with how the whole situation was setup for the season. Too much unnecessary and deliberate misleading of the audience. I wasn't even paying attention to the scenes because I knew they were either intentional misleading and the finale would see Sansa/Arya kill him, or it was really really really terrible dumbness from some showrunners who are capable of terrible dumbness at times.

[wufwugy]

Now that it's all D&D land, there are zero surprises. I can't think of one thing that lots of us didn't see coming.

What I didn't see coming the most was all the fan service. I'm happy for it though. The kid in me wants a string of like 3 episodes dedicated to only fan service. Let's get every special conversation every grouping of the beloved characters can have.

[wufwugy]

[baudib]

Is Jaimie the tragic figure of the show? Or is it your mom?

[wufwugy]

if no work this work http://i.imgur.com/vfYUwoR.gifv

[wufwugy]

Is Jaimie the tragic figure of the show? Or is it your mom?

Probs me mam.

The Mannis is my pick for the Oedipal-esque tragedy of the show. But D&D killed him off early.

Jaime is my sleeper pick for the true hero of the series.

[baudib]

your love affair with Stannis always felt sorta like romanticizing Henry VIII.

Jaimie could indeed be the hero. He's always been the most interesting character IMO, and his POV in the books were the best.