**** Elections thread *****

[BananaStand]

It is apparently very hard for a person who has absolutely nothing.

I don't believe there are very many people like that in the US or in Finland. Poverty means something entirely different in developed countries. Like I said, a poor household in the US probably gets more cable stations than I do.

Massive catch-22.

I don't really see it that way. It's not like condoms are hard to come by. Also the religious argument is iffy. I find it hard to believe that a sinner would brazenly embrace premarital sex but then draw the line at prophylactics. My point is, that the American system is set up so that virtually anyone, regardless of class or status, can achieve "average". If some choose to squander it with horrible choices like dropping out of school, or having babies that they can't support, I don't see that as a failing, or even a shortcoming, of American education.

Great. Do you believe that if he wasn’t any “probably pretty good” at high school algebra, he’d still be in the position he is now? Do bear in mind that he has a PhD in computer engineering.

Still not seeing your point. If he wasn't good at algebra, that wouldn't necessarily be his undoing. His aptitude for math and science led him to a certain career. If he was better at sports and arts, maybe he'd be in a different career. That doesn't mean he'd necessarily be less successful. Unless he lived in Finland, which was my point about Oprah.

Probably not. But failure to be Oprah would not mean living in poverty in Finland. As we know, not everyone is Oprah. And you do not need a billion dollars to live well.

Ok, if this is how you feel, what's your point about Schmidt?

[Jack Sawyer]

I don't believe there are very many people like that in the US or in Finland. Poverty means something entirely different in developed countries. Like I said, a poor household in the US probably gets more cable stations than I do.

Sure. Standard of poverty is different everywhere.


Using your stance, in that case it probably would mean you are poor as well, and would also benefit greatly from additional gratis advanced educational opportunities offered to you.


See, if your standard on poverty is “how many cable channels people get” and “they get more than me”, you are boxing yourself into a particular corner. Think bigger picture brah.

I don't really see it that way.

I see you don’t see it that way, and that’s ok, you can see it in whichever way you desire.

It's not like condoms are hard to come by. Also the religious argument is iffy. I find it hard to believe that a sinner would brazenly embrace premarital sex but then draw the line at prophylactics.

Oh no they don’t; they fuck, they ignore wtf a condom is because they are told to ignore wtf a condom is, and then they have kids. Can’t have an abortion because their skygod told them it’s forbidden, yada yada. This is greatly documented, if you want I could conjure up some statistical black magic for you to scrutinize at will.


Education level, having kids early and religion it’s all correlated and intricately intertwined.

My point is, that the American system is set up so that virtually anyone, regardless of class or status, can achieve "average". If some choose to squander it with horrible choices like dropping out of school, or having babies that they can't support, I don't see that as a failing, or even a shortcoming, of American education.

Then if you can achieve better than “average” through better and free education, you are against it? You do know that “average” can be raised, right? Raising the actual “average” as a whole with a modicum of effort and you are still against it?


How about you want to go college because you want to be better than “average”; say, a cheap-ass community college. Yet you can’t afford the $9,500 annual tuition expected of you. What do you do? You either don’t go and accept your current fate or you get a student loan, which are handed out like candy. Or a sugar daddy.


This puts you in at least a $38,000 deficit upon graduation, assuming you graduate in four years. Suck at college-ing and don’t graduate, then you are stuck with that bill AND no degree.


Congratulations! You are now a modern wage slave.


Be good at college-ing to graduate in 4 years? Then obviously you have to major in something which makes a ton of money fast so that you can pay off this debt and others you have accumulated, and start thinking about buying your house and living life. This puts whole majors at a disadvantage. DUCY?

Still not seeing your point. If he wasn't good at algebra, that wouldn't necessarily be his undoing. His aptitude for math and science led him to a certain career. If he was better at sports and arts, maybe he'd be in a different career. That doesn't mean he'd necessarily be less successful. Unless he lived in Finland, which was my point about Oprah.

Ok, if this is how you feel, what's your point about Schmidt?

Probably, and that’s OK. Just not billionaire OK though, but he’d still probably be OK.


But, he’d never be the Eric Schmidt we know if he wasn’t “probably pretty good” at high school algebra. Oprah and JK Rowling were both “probably pretty good” at high school level English.

[BananaStand]

See, if your standard on poverty is “how many cable channels people get” and “they get more than me”, you are boxing yourself into a particular corner. Think bigger picture brah.

The cable channels comment was hyperbolic, not meant to be taken syllable for syllable literally. Are you trying out for CNN here?

My point is that "poverty" in America comes with a fair amount of luxuries.

Then if you can achieve better than “average” through better and free education, you are against it? You do know that “average” can be raised, right? Raising the actual “average” as a whole with a modicum of effort and you are still against it?


How about you want to go college because you want to be better than “average”; say, a cheap-ass community college. Yet you can’t afford the $9,500 annual tuition expected of you. What do you do? You either don’t go and accept your current fate or you get a student loan, which are handed out like candy. Or a sugar daddy.


This puts you in at least a $38,000 deficit upon graduation, assuming you graduate in four years. Suck at college-ing and don’t graduate, then you are stuck with that bill AND no degree.


Congratulations! You are now a modern wage slave.

Easy Bernie

-what moticum of effort, specifically?
-If you are a high school graduate, and you can't earn 9500 bucks a year, you deserve to have a shit-life.
-Who said you MUST borrow all of your tuition?
-Who said you MUST finish in four years?
-Who said you MUST get a four year degree, and a 2 year degree is unacceptable?
-Who said making a financial obligation and subsequently quitting should not have a consequence?

It's 2017 man, you can take college courses while sitting on your toilet nowadays. A high school graduate should really have no problem getting an education. If it means you have to live with a roommate for a while, so be it. If it means you have to borrow money, so be it (but it really shouldn't....get a job). If getting a job means you take fewer courses at a time, and graduate in 5 years...so be it. If you don't get to live in a dorm, join a frat, drink your balls off, and get the residential college experience...so be it. If you have to get a 2 year degree, then find employment that offers tuition assistance in order to finish..so be it.

Some people have to work harder than others. Life's not fair.

[Jack Sawyer]

The cable channels comment was hyperbolic, not meant to be taken syllable for syllable literally. Are you trying out for CNN here?


My point is that "poverty" in America comes with a fair amount of luxuries.

Only if you are trying out for Fox News


Funny anecdote: I stopped watching Fox back in like ’07. I used to watch it a ton back then though, but I can’t remember why. Maybe because it was like “American News”, must be good, whatever. If I search around long enough I can find the exact date on this board somewhere. I noticed everywhere on Fox saying “Osama” every single time they mentioned “Obama” back then.


Like someone taking off my blindfold.

Easy Bernie


-what moticum of effort, specifically?

How about less war and allocate some of that budget towards education? That’s like, literally, 0 effort on every citizen’s part. 0. None. Nada.

-If you are a high school graduate, and you can't earn 9500 bucks a year, you deserve to have a shit-life.

You wouldn’t have to worry about earning that $9500 a year if you wouldn’t have to pay that tuition. You could get by with much less than that, ergo dedicating more time to, you know, your studies.

-Who said you MUST borrow all of your tuition?

How are you going to get money if you don’t have? I am arguing for the poor here. Poor people don’t have $9,500 lying around. Much less the $70,000 it would take per annum for NYU for instance.

-Who said you MUST finish in four years?

Common BSc studies takes 4 years AFAIK. Medical is like 5 years. I don’t know (and frankly haven’t heard) about 2 year studies that aren’t like doctorate or MSc., so whatever.


Or are you now taking my every word in my example literally?

-Who said you MUST get a four year degree, and a 2 year degree is unacceptable?

See above. Plus, what are you arguing here exactly? The money still has to be there per year regardless.

-Who said making a financial obligation and subsequently quitting should not have a consequence?

Kids make stupid decisions all the time. It comes with being young and ignorant. However, it’s easy to prey on this stupidity, and people have been making careers out of this. Have you heard how much of an issue student loan debt has become nowadays?

It's 2017 man, you can take college courses while sitting on your toilet nowadays. A high school graduate should really have no problem getting an education. If it means you have to live with a roommate for a while, so be it. If it means you have to borrow money, so be it (but it really shouldn't....get a job). If getting a job means you take fewer courses at a time, and graduate in 5 years...so be it. If you don't get to live in a dorm, join a frat, drink your balls off, and get the residential college experience...so be it. If you have to get a 2 year degree, then find employment that offers tuition assistance in order to finish..so be it.


Some people have to work harder than others. Life's not fair.

It can be very different for literally everybody if people stopped being so dense for no reason, at least for a little while. Stopping and reasoning, thinking with the tiniest bit of empathy for a change.


Much easier said than done apparently

[BananaStand]

Only if you are trying out for Fox News

It's good to be #1

How about less war and allocate some of that budget towards education? That’s like, literally, 0 effort on every citizen’s part. 0. None. Nada.

Obama pulled us out of Iraq/Afghanistan years ago. Schools didn't improve. You really think that we can just throw more money at schools and make them better?

Also, why are you so down on the military? Military spending boosts the economy quite a bit. There are lots and lots and lots of private companies that are DoD contractors. they build planes, ships, guns, gear, and everything else. That's millions and millions of jobs. Sequestration led to massive layoffs at these companies. How did that help anything?

If you want the government to start diverting wasted money.....start looking at the Post Office.

You wouldn’t have to worry about earning that $9500 a year if you wouldn’t have to pay that tuition. You could get by with much less than that, ergo dedicating more time to, you know, your studies.

Or.....what if college cost less than 9500? Also this idea of having "more time for your studies" is silly. There are enough hours in the day to work and go to school.

How are you going to get money if you don’t have?.

Prostitution....robbery....or maybe this new thing called 'Employment'

Common BSc studies takes 4 years AFAIK. Medical is like 5 years. I don’t know (and frankly haven’t heard) about 2 year studies that aren’t like doctorate or MSc., so whatever.

You get your degree when you've earned enough credits to qualify. Most people take four years. But depending on how heavy a course load you can handle, it could take longer or shorter than that. Associates degrees require significantly less credits than bachelors and are commonly finished in 1.5 or 2 years.

See above. Plus, what are you arguing here exactly? The money still has to be there per year regardless.

It's a smaller loan. It can be paid back easier, and sooner.

Kids make stupid decisions all the time. It comes with being young and ignorant. However, it’s easy to prey on this stupidity, and people have been making careers out of this. Have you heard how much of an issue student loan debt has become nowadays?

And how did it become an issue? This is a MAJOR flaw in your solution of 'throwing more money' at the problem. The only reason college is so expensive is because of the asinine inflation caused by government handing out student loans like candy. More money won't solve this problem. College simply has to get cheaper. That means LESS student loans, LESS government assistance, and colleges are left to compete with each other simply on the merits of the service that they provide.

It can be very different for literally everybody if people stopped being so dense for no reason, at least for a little while. Stopping and reasoning, thinking with the tiniest bit of empathy for a change.

We tried the "empathy" route. That's what CAUSED this problem. In the 90's, it was decided that college education was a "right". Hence, the government started handing out student loans like candy. What happens when a government prints shitloads of money.....INFLATION. Tuition went through the roof because the colleges were all greedy fucktards.

If these schools really had to manage their costs, and compete for student enrollment, you'd see an entirely different system in this country. But as long as people whining about how they want the 4-year, residential college experience, debt-free, and demanding their "empathy"....we're fucked.