**** Elections thread *****

[MadMojoMonkey]

Right, but you didn't engage with the ideas. You overtly said as much. You decided that certain concepts cannot be reached but by (the bad kind of) bigotry, and so you refused to hear any possible reasoning as to challenge this assertion.

Oh, really?
A) Watch me engage with ideas:

Weak sauce.

Your argument is that some people are haters, so you hate on anyone who remotely shares something about the haters that is not the same as about you... they don't have the same religion? So you hate on their religion.

News flash: Muslim terrorists are being killed by Muslim police every day.

News flash: there are Mosques all over America. Have been for ages. Where's this problem with Muslims?

and B) replace Muslims with Blacks and tell me why I should entertain anyone's ridiculous rationalizations for why they think it's OK to hate on black people. Replace Muslim with gay and same thing.

Maybe wuf and I are bigots. But apparently we either a) recognize it doesn't go over well, so we hide it or b) are unaware of the fact. If you think it's the former, then, well, lol. If you think it's the latter, then wouldn't you want to engage with our wrong headed justifications for our bigotry and show us the light? Mischaracterizing our arguments as having "vilified 1/3 of all the people" and crying out " I'm certainly not going to entertain your arguments pretending that what you said was anything but bigotry and hatred." is not the best strategy here.

a) I don't care what you think or believe in your head. I care what you contribute to the world. If you keep your bigoted thoughts to yourself, then that's fine with me.

b) I have no ambition to "show you the light" if you don't want to see it. If you do want to see it, then I am not qualified to act as your expert guide. Make friends with some Muslims, FFS.

It's no mischaracterization to say that wuf's words vilified 1/3 of all the people. Claiming otherwise is a lie.
You may not understand my strategy of calling out BS and lies for what they are, but it's working in the sciences quite well.
I never claimed to be the best at anything, certainly not strategy. I'm doing what I know to do. If it's less than perfect, so be it.

Engaging in the conversation is to give weight to the notion that there is any merit to harboring reasons to hate on large groups of innocent people. I reject that hypothesis. I say if this is how you hate, then you're a lazy hater. Step up your hate game and focus on individuals who are deplorable, and stop saying emotionally charged and offensive BS which doesn't reflect the reality you live in.

On their face, these points may seem offensive to you, and I understand that, but your offense is not the arbiter of truth. Engage with the ideas, or pipe down.

Show me data and I'll engage. I refuse to engage with lies and hearsay.

I have studied Islam as a religion. I have read parts of the Quran (not the whole thing by any means). I have lived with and worked with Islamic people. If you tell me that the religion is one of terror or domination, then I can justifiable assert that I know you are wrong, because I have studied the religious texts in question and gotten to know the people of that faith. For you to assert as much is ignorance at best and bigotry at worst. If you're an adult who is saying ignorant things and have had the time and opportunity to become more informed, yet you have not... then bigotry by negligence, IMO.

Refusing to see groups of people as "normal" humans is bigotry.
Choosing to call out individuals for bad acting is justice.

[wufwugy]

If you tell me that the religion is one of terror or domination, then I can justifiable assert that I know you are wrong, because I have studied the religious texts in question and gotten to know the people of that faith.

I'm very happy you said this.

I am not talking about Muslims at all; I am talking about a political doctrine that is worse than Nazism.

Islam is the way of Muhammad. The Muslims who do not murder other people are nominal, cultural, Muslims. They do not follow the way of Muhammad nor the teachings of the Imams. My opinion or your opinion about Islam or Muslims do not matter. The only opinion that matters is Muhammad's. According to Muhammad and to the widely accepted doctrine, Muhammad was a warlord who commanded his followers to proselytize by the sword. Muhammad's latter actions and teachings have abrogated everything else.

The primary victims of Islamism are Muslims. It's because they're apostates who aren't following Muhammad. Calling ISIS a group of genocidal maniac extremists paints an incomplete and misleading picture of the them. They are the reformation of Islam back to the teachings of Muhammad.


A fruitful discussion would be to consider whether or not there is any hope for Islam as a religion. I'd certainly like there to be, but there is a common theme that runs through religions that suggests there isn't. That theme is that the (perhaps) only way religions reform is by returning to the scriptures and interpreting more literally, purely, and with abrogation of previous teachings. Islam is in a terrible place because the purpose for its creation was the subjugation of all into its ways. Islam can't go back to the scriptures to find peace because there is no peace to be found in Muhammad. I have no idea what the solution is to this, but it certainly is not to give a violent political ideology a pass.

Attacking me based on my statements is like attacking somebody who claims Nazism is awful as instead saying the German people who were also Nazis were awful. I am saying no such thing about Muslims. Muslims are normal people like you and me. But Islamism is one of the most destructive political forces in human history and in the world today. It is not that way due to its adherent just being bad, but because of the teachings of Islam itself. We in America are fortunate in that the vast majority of Muslims here are very nominal and they don't believe this stuff because they're, well, nominal and cultural Muslims instead of adherents to the doctrine.

[MadMojoMonkey]

@wuf: You're really going to double-down on being an ass, huh?

I am disappoint.

I am not talking about Muslims at all

You are choosing your words to mean something which no one else is hearing. Your fault, not mine.
Your choice is ridiculous, in that you are telling people what they believe or that the majority of people in their faith are doing it wrong.

It's a laughable position and you're doing real harm.

Islam is the way of Muhammad. The Muslims who do not murder other people are nominal, cultural, Muslims. They do not follow the way of Muhammad nor the teachings of the Imams. My opinion or your opinion about Islam or Muslims do not matter. The only opinion that matters is Muhammad's. According to Muhammad and to the widely accepted doctrine, Muhammad was a warlord who commanded his followers to proselytize by the sword. Muhammad's latter actions and teachings have abrogated everything else.

Who are you to tell Muslims what their faith is and whether or not they're doing it right?

What is this nonsense about Muhammad? Like, I am surrounded by Christians and I bet most of them would struggle to name 2 direct Jesus quotes. Are they not Christians? Nearly no modern Buddhist follows Siddhartha's mandate that the only thing in the universe worthy of worship is their own spiritual conversation with the God in their soul. Are they not Buddhists?

Why? Because some ignorant tool who has no compassion for world cultures says so?

Shut up with your nonsense and piece together a cogent thought on the topic.
Stop pretending that you have a leg to stand on with this prejudiced line of reasoning. It's literally no different than the call for persecution of the Jewish people leading into WWII... and I appreciate the comedy of saying that on the internet.

The primary victims of Islamism are Muslims. It's because they're apostates who aren't following Muhammad. Calling ISIS a group of genocidal maniac extremists paints an incomplete and misleading picture of the them. They are the reformation of Islam back to the teachings of Muhammad.

This tiny, less than 1% of a group is shouting that they speak for the entire group, while the rest of the group is diligently telling them and everyone who will listen that no, they do not speak for anyone but their despicable selves.

Who does wuf hear? The one that gives him an excuse to be a lazy hater.


... and I ain't got time for this nonsense.


as for the rest:

Shut the hell up with this lazy hate speech. Drop some data or admit that you're a lazy hater who only needs to placate his self worth by denigrating other people. There is no other option.