**** Elections thread *****

[BananaStand]

Of course government is a business. You still have to balance your books, you still have to pay for things like jail and policing.

So pay for jail and policing. To me that's more consistent with the mission of government than giving free money to morons.

law and order happen because people don't have to fend for themselves in the way you are suggesting.

Crime occurs because of poverty. The two are linked. People living on gov't assistance are still poor. Hence there will still be crime. You haven't solved anything.

I basically deem someone "unemployable" if I feel that their attitude means they won't be able to hold down a job.

ridiculous.

I'm just trying to avoid the morons from turning to begging and stealing to feed themselves...... do you suppose that at least some of those who then try and fail to get a job will have no choice but to either beg on the streets, or steal?

You're talking about a massively expensive, taxpayer funded entitlement program just to save us the aggravation of a minority few who decide a life of crime is better than working for a living.

everytime it happens, it is an inconvenience for a business, and ultimately a cost.

Dude....it is not the government's job to control business's costs for them. Employee turnover is a real thing, it has a cost, and businesses pay that cost. If they don't like it, there are ways to improve employee retention. There are entire disciplines of business dedicated to managing human resources. They dont' need the government's help.

You know what's a costly inconvenience for business? Big Government.

Right, so you're saying that just over a hundred bucks is "significant",

It's 20% more. Is that not significant? Besides, I'm only paying the $495 once every time a shit-employee needs to be replaced. Supporting a shit employee costs more than that every month. That's certainly a significant difference

while you pull numbers out of your arse.

False. I'm in charge of financial analysis for a company that employs over 1000 unskilled laborers in 20 us cities. Those are real numbers my friend.

The shit employee might earn $1500 a month for a 40-hour week, but only create £500 in value for the company, while a productive employee earns the company $3000.

Businesses are perfectly capable, on their own, of measuring the productivity of their employees and making staffing decisions based on the results. They don't need the government's help keeping out the riff raff. Where in the world did you get the idea that governments should be running private businesses?

Well, if someone is getting through a job every two months

C'mon man. How many people are you really talking about now? Who is this person who starts and leaves 6 jobs a year?

So based on the numbers I shat out, there's an economic argument in favour of benefits.

In favor of whom? Again, it's not the government's job to be trying to control business' costs for them.

Considering neither of us are in a position to know the economic cost of employing a moron, I'd call this point stalemate.

I actually do know the cost. Checkmate.

I'm not making excuses for myself.

Honestly. Your post(s) seem like a roundabout way of you validating your own lifestyle. That's my read here man. Take it for what it's worth.

You think "employability" is purely a physical matter. That's why you're wrong.

If someone has a mental impairment that prevents them from working, I'd agree they are unemployable as well. But laziness simply does not qualify. Behaviors can be changed, disabilities and impairments, can not

It's cut throat because if you're having a bad day and the boss doesn't like you, you're not paying the mortgage at the end of the month.

That's an unrealistic extreme. Also, I think this is simply a perception that is reflective of your own problem with authority. People competing for high paying, high-status job are cut-throat. Bus drivers and waiters...not so much. It's like you're saying "playing cards is cutthroat". But we both know there is an enormous difference between No Limit Hold em, and Go Fish.

Well yes you certainly identify my problem here. And you seem to think it's a choice.

It is, it totally is.

You can't change the way people's brains are wired, just so they can be more productive.

Yes you can. Yes, you totally can.

You think it's shitty that people pay for me to stay at home. Fair enough. I think there's lots more shitty things going on that are dwarfed by the laziness or attitude problems of those who can't hold down a job.

Just because you're not the worst case of injustice in the world, means that what you're doing is ok?

I'll sometimes get to see how many people have applied... it's usually 30-40 as a minimum, and that's the shit jobs that I might actually get. Take away benefits, and suddenly there will be hundreds of applicants for every job.

So what you're saying is.....people lose their benefits and DON'T turn to a life of crime? Those extra hundreds of people are at least attempting to get jobs rather than steal for a living? Doesn't that shatter your entire argument?

But where people are saying "if they don't give me money I'm fucked and I have no idea what I'll do", and then out of desperation steal some food from Tesco, t

Who are these people? ANd how many of them do you think there are? People don't suddenly become destitute to the point of stealing. Generally their lives deteriorate as a result of terrible choices, like leaving jobs for shitty reasons. So if someone's at the point where it's steal or starve, I'm fine with them doing either. What I'm not fine with, is having my tax dollars used to enable this entitled lifestyle.

I can go and live in France and claim their benefits, if I want. There's a sea between us, and that isn't a barrier.

That's because it's at sea level. You need something taller.

No, "hating work" might not qualify. Not being the kind of guy who is capable of being told what to do?.

That's insane. How many countries have mandatory conscription? How does that work with the guy who 'isn't capable of being told what to do'? Do they just let him off the hook? They just give him money and send him home? Unless there is a physical or mental disability that prevents you from working, then EVERYONE is capable of doing a job.

[QUOTE=OngBonga;2274983] I don't think it's possible for people to change their attitude on demand.
Of course its possible. And who said 'on demand'. Maybe you suck at a job for six months, get fired, get another job, get fired again. Eventually you learn to do better.