**** Elections thread *****

[Jack Sawyer]

Of course they do. More free stuff for everybody except the half-dozen or so rich people hoarding all the cash in this country. Who could say no to that? No one seems to care that his policies would bring the economy to a standstill. To me, Bernie illustrated perfectly why a popular vote is a terrible idea. Just run through NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Atlanta, Denver, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami....promise everyone a check and a free puppy, viola....you're president.

I hope the GOP gets on board with this super-delagate shit.

E.G. Comrade Bernie was promising free education, by redirecting funds currently allocated to keeping wars going to educate your people. Are you against free education? Color me biased there because I am definitely for free education for everyone in all walks of life; an educated populace has too many benefits too mention, including but definitely not limited to dramatic reduction in crime rates, incarcerations, etc.

Intelligent people are more difficult to fool as well. No student loan to burden you forever, which is debt you can't get out of even if you go bankrupt. More and better jobs for everyone, because people would have more ideas and knowhow in how to run businesses, higher level skills, ability to discern gaps in the market and use their educations to seize the opportunities provided, among many many other benefits. It's a utopia, but one that was definitely achievable in our lifetimes.

I don't understand how people can be against free education. If given the opportunity, would you prefer to keep wars going (with every consequence thereof, like blemishing the US in the eyes of other countries etc., getting more and more enemies by the day therefore needing more war) rather than give your population free education?

[wufwugy]

Are you against free education?

Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.

Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.

[Jack Sawyer]

Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.


Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.

Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


That’s all there is to it.

[BananaStand]

Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


That’s all there is to it.

Why don't they just do all that with K-12?

[wufwugy]

Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


That’s all there is to it.

"Free" education is partly a problem due to how the "freeness" perverts incentives. Another reason is that the government monopoly takes a jackhammer to the quality of education.

[wufwugy]

All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it.

I'll add that we already have this. Incentivizing education is not a bad thing. It's actually a very good thing. The problem is that the incentive is to enroll in a pretty monopolized system. It's so unfair for so many people.

[CoccoBill]

Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.

Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.

That's one point of view, here's another:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national...m_source=atlfb

[wufwugy]

That's one point of view, here's another:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national...m_source=atlfb

Finland's education system is more competitive than the American system.

Finland's system could be better too. Finland is in a unique situation where it has a small, mostly homogeneous population of people who share similar culture and values. In this kind of place, it's not that hard to have a public system that's generally all right because the subjects generally want the same things. There are still some drawbacks, but they're the kind that Americans care more about and Finnish probably don't.

Transplanting this to a diverse population would spell disaster. The funny thing is that a lot of what American conservatives and Trump supporters are fighting for are things that Finland already values and already has. We want to be able to govern ourselves like you guys do. Finnish government is much more representative of the Finnish people than the American federal government is of American people. Some of our state governments are probably about as representative, but most aren't.

[CoccoBill]

Finland's system could be better too. Finland is in a unique situation where it has a small, mostly homogeneous population of people who share similar culture and values. In this kind of place, it's not that hard to have a public system that's generally all right because the subjects generally want the same things. There are still some drawbacks, but they're the kind that Americans care more about and Finnish probably don't.

Finland is both population-wise and geographically the size of an average US state. To my understanding schools and their governance operates there on state level, so I would argue that size is of consequence here. What things are wanted from American schools that's different to Finland? I'd think most just want quality affordable education. Just having a few different religions or cultures practiced by the students is not an issue, it's already accommodated in Finland.

Transplanting this to a diverse population would spell disaster. The funny thing is that a lot of what American conservatives and Trump supporters are fighting for are things that Finland already values and already has. We want to be able to govern ourselves like you guys do. Finnish government is much more representative of the Finnish people than the American federal government is of American people. Some of our state governments are probably about as representative, but most aren't.

The key points are to have a single payer system that ensures all kids regardless of background and location have access to the same level of schools for free, there's no competition for best schools since they're all the same. Teachers are respected and you're required a university degree to become one. There's less homework, less standardized tests and more focus on creativity. I don't see how any of this would spell disaster.

[wufwugy]

Finland is both population-wise and geographically the size of an average US state. To my understanding schools and their governance operates there on state level, so I would argue that size is of consequence here. What things are wanted from American schools that's different to Finland? I'd think most just want quality affordable education. Just having a few different religions or cultures practiced by the students is not an issue, it's already accommodated in Finland.

If I can take my own state (approximately the same size as Finland), Seattle and Spokane are two very different places. There isn't a "Washington nation." Seattle has more in common with San Francisco (a couple states to the south), and Spokane has more in common with South Dakota (several states to the east). Some counties, like Yakima, probably have more in common with New Mexico than with the rest of Washington. Bellingham has more in common with British Columbia than it does Spokane.

Washingtonians don't think of themselves as Washingtonians. Well, maybe some Seattleites do, but they're the kind who might think Seattle=Washington=Utopia. We've got a bunch of people from China, from Norway, from Mexico, from other parts of the US. Even though Washington probably does have more homogeneous people and culture than some other places in the US, it's still crazy diverse.

When it comes to what parents in Washington want for their kids' educations, it's all over the place. Some want lots of their specific religions in their schools, others don't. Some want focus on practical skills, others don't. This is the kind of place that would benefit greatly from a private system absent of government funding and regulation. Lots of parents send their kids to private school or homeschool already, and these parents bear a big cost for doing so. The government has made it very hard and expensive to not go to the public school based on your district. Lots of parents would prefer to go private or homeschool but don't due to these costs.

From my personal experience at a community college, I have discovered that if I have kids, they will be homeschooled. I knew a whole bunch of different people there, and the ones who were homeschooled were miles ahead of everybody else. It's pretty astounding actually. I thought "well adjusted teenager" was an oxymoron until I met homeschooled ones.

The key points are to have a single payer system that ensures all kids regardless of background and location have access to the same level of schools for free, there's no competition for best schools since they're all the same. Teachers are respected and you're required a university degree to become one. There's less homework, less standardized tests and more focus on creativity. I don't see how any of this would spell disaster.

In a sufficiently competitive system, products and services aren't that differentiated.

From what I've read on Finland, there is a measure of school choice. This does a fantastic amount of good for competition. In most (or all?) places in the US, we're forced to attend a specific school based on location. Simply being able to choose between a small handful of schools would make our system far more robust.

It isn't that a public system can't be improved. It can. Add vouchers to the US public system, and it will improve vastly. My initial point includes how the kind of problem that has arisen in our public system is the kind that arises due to it being a public system. Also, even though Finland has some smarter elements in its system, I think it would be greatly improved if totally private.

[CoccoBill]

In a sufficiently competitive system, products and services aren't that differentiated.

From what I've read on Finland, there is a measure of school choice. This does a fantastic amount of good for competition. In most (or all?) places in the US, we're forced to attend a specific school based on location. Simply being able to choose between a small handful of schools would make our system far more robust.

I'm not sure what you mean by competition here? That's exactly how things are here, you're pretty much assigned a school based on your location the first 9-12 grades of basic education, after that it's all application based. There is no competition between schools, they aren't even compared to each other, no measuring of performance or any kind of metrics like that. They actually make it a point to not publish statistics on test scores, and nowadays I don't think kids even receive numerical grades until grade 5 or 6. And that was exactly the point of the article, it doesn't matter which school you go to, they're all basically the same. That equality and lack of competition is a key aspect of why Finnish schools perform so well.

It isn't that a public system can't be improved. It can. Add vouchers to the US public system, and it will improve vastly. My initial point includes how the kind of problem that has arisen in our public system is the kind that arises due to it being a public system. Also, even though Finland has some smarter elements in its system, I think it would be greatly improved if totally private.

Making the system private would ensure they wouldn't be of the same quality. Schools would have to employ every strategy imaginable to attract students, like manipulating performance metrics or at least concentrating solely on standardized test performance, which kills creativity. Studying should be about learning stuff, not about learning to perform well in tests.

[CoccoBill]

If I can take my own state (approximately the same size as Finland), Seattle and Spokane are two very different places. There isn't a "Washington nation." Seattle has more in common with San Francisco (a couple states to the south), and Spokane has more in common with South Dakota (several states to the east). Some counties, like Yakima, probably have more in common with New Mexico than with the rest of Washington. Bellingham has more in common with British Columbia than it does Spokane.

Washingtonians don't think of themselves as Washingtonians. Well, maybe some Seattleites do, but they're the kind who might think Seattle=Washington=Utopia. We've got a bunch of people from China, from Norway, from Mexico, from other parts of the US. Even though Washington probably does have more homogeneous people and culture than some other places in the US, it's still crazy diverse.

When it comes to what parents in Washington want for their kids' educations, it's all over the place. Some want lots of their specific religions in their schools, others don't. Some want focus on practical skills, others don't. This is the kind of place that would benefit greatly from a private system absent of government funding and regulation. Lots of parents send their kids to private school or homeschool already, and these parents bear a big cost for doing so. The government has made it very hard and expensive to not go to the public school based on your district. Lots of parents would prefer to go private or homeschool but don't due to these costs.

If you compare cities in Finland, you'll easily find similar differences. The bigger cities here of course also have people from around the world, there are more than insignificant population of Swedish, Russian, Estonian, Somalian, Vietnamese, Iraqi, Albanian, Chinese etc. You don't need to have hundreds of people from a certain ethnicity in a school for it to make an impact, even one person needs to be accommodated. While Finland has been incredibly homogeneous for most of its history, that has been changing fast in the past decades. Over 10% of the population are not ethnic Finns, and in larger cities that number is a lot higher.

From my personal experience at a community college, I have discovered that if I have kids, they will be homeschooled. I knew a whole bunch of different people there, and the ones who were homeschooled were miles ahead of everybody else. It's pretty astounding actually. I thought "well adjusted teenager" was an oxymoron until I met homeschooled ones.

The quality of homeschooling is exactly as good as the person teaching. I wouldn't make any kind of generalizations about it. I would personally be wry of enforcing my own prejudices and limitations to my kids, I'm not an expert on all subjects. BTW in Finland the concept of homeschooling is non-existent and counter to all common sense. Sure I could also do my own electric work and dentistry, but I'd feel much safer getting a professional to do it.