**** Elections thread *****

[boost]

It's funny how everyone thinks that fake news is a phenomenon of propaganda being levied against their political ideology (which happens to be the true and right one, of course.)

It's not funny because one side is wrong, it's funny because both sides are right.

[OngBonga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHtH0IJids

8.45 > "We heard about the DNC emails that were leaked"

What on Earth does Obama mean by "leaked"?

[OngBonga]

Ong is trying to say it's racist that white and black people have different dialects where the word 'nigger' has a different meaning. I'm saying it's not.

No, I'm saying that it's racist for white people to have different rules applied to them than black people.

You're arguing the word "nigger" means something different to black people than it does white people. That's not only wrong, it's also racist, because it assumes that the context in which I use the word is irrelevant, and instead the meaning is determined by my skin colour.

[Poopadoop]

No, I'm saying that it's racist for white people to have different rules applied to them than black people.

You're arguing the word "nigger" means something different to black people than it does white people. That's not only wrong, it's also racist, because it assumes that the context in which I use the word is irrelevant, and instead the meaning is determined by my skin colour.

The only way your system would work is if we abolished race as a linguistic concept altogether. That way no race could have its own dialect and words would mean the same thing regardless of the speaker. But then we'd be back to the issue of assimilation which is itself racist.

[OngBonga]

This is like saying the problem with an earthquake isn't the word earthquake, it's the ground shaking. Ya of course it is. What's your point?

Your anologies are worse than mine.

[Poopadoop]

Your anologies are worse than mine.

That was your point?

[OngBonga]

This has fuck all to do with dialect. If you truly believe that "nigger" means something different to black people than it does white people, then I really don't know what to say. Especially considering that you fail to understand that such a position is racist.

[Poopadoop]

This has fuck all to do with dialect. If you truly believe that "nigger" means something different to black people than it does white people, then I really don't know what to say. Especially considering that you fail to understand that such a position is racist.

So you think when a black person calls another black person 'nigger', they're using it as an insult?

[OngBonga]

So you think when a black person calls another black person 'nigger', they're using it as an insult?

Does the word "nigger" mean "a contemptuous term for a black or dark-skinned person" to the black person, or does it have a different definition?

[Poopadoop]

Does the word "nigger" mean "a contemptuous term for a black or dark-skinned person" to the black person, or does it have a different definition?

So that's a yes?

[OngBonga]

So that's a yes?

You're really good at missing the point.

[OngBonga]

Further, if the word means "comrade" to a black person, does that then mean I am respecting their culture and dialect if I use the word in the same context, espeically in the company of black people?

[Poopadoop]

Further, if the word means "comrade" to a black person, does that then mean I am respecting their culture and dialect if I use the word in the same context, espeically in the company of black people?

We're talking about black people, not communists.

My translation of the word 'nigger' in the black dialect is 'person of my same colour'. So no, you couldn't use it and mean the same thing if you're white.

[OngBonga]

Right, so poop, my honkey, I hope the next time you hear a black person say honkey you point out that only white people can use that word.

[Poopadoop]

Right, so poop, my honkey, I hope the next time you hear a black person say honkey you point out that only white people can use that word.

First, I'm mixed White/Native American so I'll take your words as a misunderstanding.

Second, I'm not going to bother trying to explain dialects to a racist.

[OngBonga]

First, I'm mixed White/Native American so I'll take your words as a misunderstanding.

Second, I'm not going to bother trying to explain dialects to a racist.

Ok, so why am I racist? Where am I discriminating, or demonstrating prejudice? Where do I suggest one race is superior to another?

I have shown that you are discriminating against me when you say that I can't say a certain word without it being offensive, while others of a different race can. Now show me why I'm being racist.

[Poopadoop]

Ok, so why am I racist? Where am I discriminating, or demonstrating prejudice? Where do I suggest one race is superior to another?

I have shown that you are discriminating against me when you say that I can't say a certain word without it being offensive, while others of a different race can. Now show me why I'm being racist.

I'm not saying you are racist, just that you are conflating the existence of race-based dialects with the issue of fair and equal treatment.

It's racist to say a racial group cannot have their own dialect and assign different meanings to words when spoken to another member of the group, even if that word were generally understood as racist in most other contexts. It's for them to decide if any given word in their dialect is offensive, not us. We don't get to apply a universal rule to certain words and tell other people they have to construct their dialect around it.

[Poopadoop]

IOW, you can't satisfy every criteria of 'fair and equal' by making the usage of all words equal to everyone, because this impinges on the fair and equal right of groups of people to have their own dialects. The two ideas are mutually incompatible; you can only have one or the other be true at a time, not both.

In that case, unless there is a compelling argument to be made for one idea having a much greater moral value than the other, the simplest thing is to maintain the status quo.

[OngBonga]

There's a lot of "us and them" going on here. That is the root cause of racism, not words. That's the point I've made several times, which you dismiss as anaologous to earthquakes and ground shaking.

You're assuming "nigger" means the same to all black people, while meaning something else to white people. That's the problem with your position. You're saying it's part of THEIR dialect. No, it isn't, it's part of OUR dialect, as in English speaking people, and it has a meaning that is generally considered offensive to ALL.

If it's merely part of their dialect, and isn't offensive in the context they use it, is it ok for black children to call each other niggers?

The crazy thing is, if you actually went and asked black people if they found the use of the word offensive, even when exchanged between fellow black people, I am confident that a healthy majority would say yes, it is offensive, and black people should not use the word. So your idea that it is purely dialect is not accurate.

[OngBonga]

I agree life would be better if no such concept of race existed. But it does and I use words like 'us' and 'them' linguistically as a shorthand for different groups of people. That is not racist imho.

Granted, it's hard to not use words like "us" and "them" when having this discussion, and I don't actually think you're being racist because I don't for one minute think you have prejudice against any given race.

Depends on where you drew your sample from, which just proves my point about dialects.

I think you're being disingenuous here. I think you understand fully that a majority of black people find the word offensive, regardless of who is using it. This is not an issue of dialect, this isn't a faggot/bummer discussion.

[Poopadoop]

I think you're being disingenuous here. I think you understand fully that a majority of black people find the word offensive, regardless of who is using it. This is not an issue of dialect, this isn't a faggot/bummer discussion.

I honestly don't believe that, but I accept the notion it may be true. If that's the case then probably black people shouldn't use it either outside of certain circles.

[OngBonga]

If that's the case then probably black people shouldn't use it either outside of certain circles.

Now we're in agreement. The rules are now equally applied. White people shouldn't use the word outside of certain circles either.

[Poopadoop]

Now we're in agreement. The rules are now equally applied. White people shouldn't use the word outside of certain circles either.

Well I'm saying [I]if[I] that's true. I don't believe it is. We've already established that the same word has different connotations depending on who says it in what context.

And I don't believe rappers or other blacks who use it are trying to be racist against blacks. Other black people might hate the word for their own reasons and never want to hear it, but if they were the majority I don't think Dre or Snoop would sell as many albums as they do.

[Poopadoop]

Here's another tack:

In Canada the word 'tosser' is never used. If it were it would mean 'someone who tosses things'. So a Canadian could use it to another Canadian without any offensive connotation. Not true in the UK, where it means 'one who masturbates'.

By your logic, this dialectic difference in how and when a word is considered offensive proves the existence of xenophobia.

[OngBonga]

I understand that you're attacking the issue from a different level, but to me you're still kinda arguing that it's more important we all use words in the same way than it is to let them have their own culture with its own dialect.

I don't disagree with this, I just really don't see this issue as a question of dialect. There is no confusion on the meaning of the word. It doesn't mean "person of same colour" or whatever throwaway definition you tried to give it. Black people know what the word means, some black people don't care and use it anyway. That's the basic gist of this. If all black people used the word, or even all black people in a given region, then yes, it would be a question of dialect. But when it's used by rappers and hoodlums, and not by most members of their racial group, then it is not a question of dialect. Perhaps it's cultural, but it's not dialect. The word doesn't mean something different just because it's being used in a non-racist context by black people.

If you heard a Pakistani say "I'm off to the paki shop, do you need anything?", would you think that's merely a question of dialect? That it's ok for him to say it but not a white guy?

[Poopadoop]

The word doesn't mean something different just because it's being used in a non-racist context by black people.

It does to them. Just like you can call your white friend 'nigger' with (presumably) no racist overtones, so can they.

If you heard a Pakistani say "I'm off to the paki shop, do you need anything?", would you think that's merely a question of dialect? That it's ok for him to say it but not a white guy?

If they said it to another Pakistani, I would think it was pretty funny. I'd also assume it had nothing to do with them being against their own race.

[OngBonga]

And I don't believe rappers or other blacks who use it are trying to be racist against blacks.

I'm not suggesting that they are being racist, but they are certainly being ignorant, and if they then demand white people don't say it, they are being hypocrites, and now they are also being racist.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not suggesting that they are being racist, but they are certainly being ignorant,

Well you're the one showing an ignorance of their culture and dialect by assuming your standard usage of the word applies universally.

and if they then demand white people don't say it, they are being hypocrites, and now they are also being racist.

'My rules apply to everyone' is not an argument. If you demand I can't say 'tosser' in Canada to another Canadian because it's offensive here, and I said 'ya sure i can it means nothing offensive there, but you can't say it to me here', then I'm not a hypocrite, I just have an understanding of different dialects that you're ignoring.

[OngBonga]

You're providing examples of words that actually mean different things.

If you're trying to tell me that "nigger" does not mean "a derogatory term for black people" to black people, then you're full of shit.

[Poopadoop]

If you're trying to tell me that "nigger" does not mean "a derogatory term for black people" to black people, then you're full of shit.

No, you don't understand American black culture.

Are you aware of the existence of ebonics?

[OngBonga]

If I call a Canadian a tosser, he will be confused, and think "but what have I tossed?". That's because the Canadian doesn't know what the word means.

Are you trying to tell me that there are black people out there who use the word nigger without knowing what it means to the rest of the world?

[Poopadoop]

If I call a Canadian a tosser, he will be confused, and think "but what have I tossed?". That's because the Canadian doesn't know what the word means.

Sure he does, he knows in his dialect it means 'someone who tosses things'. Could be someone making a salad for example. But you're right he would be confused because it's not a name-calling thing.

Are you trying to tell me that there are black people out there who use the word nigger without knowing what it means to the rest of the world?

Obviously not. That's the beauty of language. You can call your friend a 'fuckwit' without it meaning he's an idiot, while still understanding the rest of the world generally accepts that as the meaning.

[OngBonga]

Are you aware of the existence of ebonics?

No. Is that what this is? Does "nigger" mean something else in Ebonics?

[Poopadoop]

No. Is that what this is?

Ebonics is the name given to American Black English. An analogy closer to home would be cockney slang.

Does "nigger" mean something else in Ebonics?

My understanding is that the answer is 'yes' in certain contexts.

[OngBonga]

Obviously not. That's the beauty of language. You can call your friend a 'fuckwit' without it meaning he's an idiot, while still understanding the rest of the world generally accepts that as the meaning.

That's fine. But I'm not saying people of a given race cannot say "fuckwit" while I use the word on a regular basis.

[Poopadoop]

I don't see why it's a big deal really. It's just one word. Are you really being put out by not being able to say it to a black person while another black person can? Do you think black people thus are being granted some huge advantage, and are now much better able to express themselves by having a word that they can use and you can't?

If you do, then you should also morally object to the Canadian use of the word 'tosser' as being inoffensive, since this proves language is xenophobic.

[OngBonga]

Are you really being put out by not being able to say it to a black person while another black person can?

I don't like racism. I just see racism different to most people. When someone says to me black people can use a word that white people cannot, I see that as racism, more so than the use of a single word. There are different standards of behaviour being applied here. It's not a case of the word meaning different things. The word "fuck" means different things, it's still an offensive word. The word "nigger" is offensive in just about every nation in the world. So some people have decided to "reclaim" the word or whatever is going on. Fair enough, they can do that all they like. So can I. Not that I'm going to, but those who say that I can't use the word while black people can, they are being racist, even if it's unintentional. Racism isn't necessarily conscious, it's treating people differently based on their race, and that can come from the subconcious.

The word "tosser" is a completely different issue. For one, it's not particularly offensive here, it's kinda mild; furthermore, it doesn't have the historical connotations that "nigger" has; for another it's not like we have one group of people using the word regularly, while at the same time saying another group of people can't use the word because it's offensive. So your "tosser" analogy really isn't cutting it.

[Poopadoop]

The word "tosser" is a completely different issue. For one, it's not particularly offensive here, it's kinda mild; furthermore, it doesn't have the historical connotations that "nigger" has; for another it's not like we have one group of people using the word regularly, while at the same time saying another group of people can't use the word because it's offensive. So your "tosser" analogy really isn't cutting it.

The degree of offensiveness or the commonality of the usage is irrelevant. The word is (mildly) offensive here but not in Canada. So by your logic it should not be used by Canadians to refer to someone making a salad, since it having a different meaning depending on the nationality of the user would be xenophobic.

[surviva316]

Before getting into it, I'll first re-emphasize that I don't think that every time a white person uses the word "nigger" it's necessarily wrong, and every time a black person uses it it is necessarily right.

I don't like racism. I just see racism different to most people. When someone says to me black people can use a word that white people cannot, I see that as racism, more so than the use of a single word. There are different standards of behaviour being applied here.

Well, you should know that your definition of racism isn't what the word means.

The cold, uncontextualized logic of double standard gets you in a lot of trouble when applied to social issues. Whether or not using a word is offensive is dependent on so much context (right down to whether it's said in a comedy setting or said in even a slightly sarcastic tone, and so on), that forcing the logic to apply equally regardless of the subject or object is necessarily problematic.

When you speak, you come with a different upbringing, background, beliefs, intent and whatever else (either assumed or actual), and those contexts all factor some way or another. This is true of any social issue, but it's especially hairy with the "n-word" issue when the whole reason it's gained so much semi-mainstream use is (at least ostensibly) a campaign to make the oppressed group reclaim the word. Your thoughts on how black people are trying to reclaim the word so you can just claim that you're doing that too are just so ong's-gonna-ong that I don't really know how to rebut it.

Again, doesn't mean that being black is sufficient to excuse you from hatefully using the word (hatefulness and superiority, by the way, should be prominent terms in this discussion), nor that someone being non-black means they're racist for using the word. It just means it all figures into it.

Is that all an overwhelming amount of considerations to make? Well, I mean, yeah it is. If that makes you just wanna play it safe and just say "n-word," and at that, use even that phrase as sparingly as possible, then fine. Doesn't necessarily reflect on you has having great rhetorical fortitude, but I can understand doing that rather than risk (rightly or wrongly) offending others or turning the microscope onto you. If that makes you wanna throw up your hands and say Fuck Tha Police, I'm gonna say it anyway, then you can do that as well, but you're still responsible for the things you say even if you can't keep up with new-fangled social expectations (and it's hardly like this is the only social expectation that's difficult to keep up with).

As for people who complain about not being "allowed" to use the word, lmao, as much as I hate divisive terms like "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining" ... my god, you can't actually think that's a viable social issue.

[JKDS]

When was the last time you heard someone say nigger, and also heard or saw a black person become offended? It's a small sample size right?

What we do know, is that the news, television, movies, and more continually jam the "it's our word, you can't use it" down our throats. Is it even true?

If it wasn't true before media did this, it's probably been made true by the media. It's now American culture to get offended by it, and to have long discussions on forums over it. But at the end of the day, ong is right.

[OngBonga]

But at the end of the day, ong is right.

I take offence to the phrase "at the end of the day", because my grandfather died around six years ago at 11.57pm. Please apologise, and don't use this phrase again. Thank you.

[OngBonga]

Hence the word "ignorance." You live in a society where there's an awareness that a word you use is offensive, and instead of choosing to educate yourself on why that is and seek to understand from your fellow people's perspective why it's offensive, you ignore all that and go on using it.

There is no need for me to educate myself about the origin of words because I don't use these words in question against those they are used to insult. I sometimes call my friend a faggot. I also call him a tosser quite often. Should I check why we say "tosser" in case it's because someone British once masturbated while tossing a child out of a window? Then let's take a look at "bugger", another word I use often. For that matter, I don't know why we say bollocks. I have no idea why lesbians are referred to as dykes. For that matter, what does Yank mean? I'm not even sure what Limey means. I couldn't give a fuck what it means, I'll never take offence to someone calling me a Limey.

What should be perfectly clear to both sides is that it's good to take the care to know how your words affect others and it's bad to be hurtful toward other people for no reason other than their sexual orientation.

Are you guys familiar with the phrase "sticks and stones"? We ram that phrase down kids' throats when they get called names at school. Why does that not apply to adults?

The idea that words alone can cause hurt is completely alien to me. Sure, there are definitely some things that some people could say that would upset me, but it won't be the words themselves. I doubt anyone I couldn't give a fuck about can hurt me with words. Family, friends, sure they probably could, but it won't be the words alone that cause the hurt, it will be the breakdown of the relationship with someone I care about. Actual emotions, instead of reflex offence.

I understand why racism hurts. But racism isn't words. Racism is discrimination. It's the discrimination that hurts, not the word itself. Anyone who gets offended simply by a word needs to get a fucking grip.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not even sure what Limey means. I couldn't give a fuck what it means, I'll never take offence to someone calling me a Limey.

It came from British sailors eating limes to prevent scurvy. This happened in ye olden days when they first started colonising the world. The parts of the world that grew lemons hated the British and wouldn't trade with them, so they had to eat limes. The name limey is a dig at that fact.

I understand why racism hurts. But racism isn't words. Racism is discrimination. It's the discrimination that hurts, not the word itself. Anyone who gets offended simply by a word needs to get a fucking grip.

The problem is you want to be the one to decide whether a word should hurt another person or not, based on how you feel about the word yourself. And that's not how discourse works. Your choice is about whether to use the word; the rest is out of your hands. Deal with it.

[OngBonga]

Deal with it.

If by "deal with it" you mean "talk shit on the internet about it", I'm way ahead of you, bro.

Well, you should know that your definition of racism isn't what the word means.

I haven't defined it, all I said was racism is discrimination. That was in comparison to words, rather than attempting to define the issue at hand.

(hatefulness and superiority, by the way, should be prominent terms in this discussion)

You clearly understand what racism is. Discriminating against someone based on their race, that is racism. Assuming one race is superior to another, that is racism. These are what cause hurt, not a word.

Your thoughts on how black people are trying to reclaim the word so you can just claim that you're doing that too are just so ong's-gonna-ong that I don't really know how to rebut it.

I don't even want to use the word nigger, I just expect society to consider it equally offensive for me to use it as anyone else. If I release a rap song saying nigger this and bitches that, I'd face a huge social media backlash. Dr Dre does it and it's all cool because it's just part of the lingo.

[surviva316]

...

You didn't really address the main point of my post:

The cold, uncontextualized logic of double standard gets you in a lot of trouble when applied to social issues. Whether or not using a word is offensive is dependent on so much context (right down to whether it's said in a comedy setting or said in even a slightly sarcastic tone, and so on), that forcing the logic to apply equally regardless of the subject or object is necessarily problematic.

The context of what you say matters. Your race is (one easily outnumbered) part of that context. This is what happens when we have conversations. It is only in highly politicized aspects of conversation that we get in a huff that we judge comments in the context of who said it and to whom it was spoken.

If I go on a jocular tirade about my son being a snot-nosed little brat who wouldn't even defend himself if the dog ate his face off, I might get some laughs; if you say it to your girlfriend while you're in the car, you might get an unwilling smirk and an, "Oh ong ... "; if you say it in front of everyone at the dinner party, including my son, things might be very awkward for a bit and my wife will be like, "Who's this internet shithead my husband's invited"; if we've been BFFs since birth and you say it, then it might get some laughs but be just a little more uneasy than when I say it; if it's a callback to something that was already said earlier in the evening, it'll be all the more uncomplicatedly funny; if you say it in an overly dry manner that gives the appearance that you're serious, you might downright dampen the night. None of this is really debatable and people seldom take issue with it.

[wufwugy]

^^i lold

[wufwugy]

It's certainly racist to say that a person cannot use a certain word because of his skin color.

[OngBonga]

It's certainly racist to say that a person cannot use a certain word because of his skin color.

Well, I don't think anyone's actually arguing white people can't say it, merely that the level of offence is different depending on your skin colour. I believe this too is a racist viewpoint, because it implies that I am subject to certain behavioural standards purely due to my skin colour.

[wufwugy]

holy hilariousness. you can see the moment when she sees the ludicrosity (made up word, deal with it) of her gender/sex beliefs and must reconfigure her braingorithm (brain+algorithm) to make sense of it. At 1:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7vH...youtu.be&t=114

[OngBonga]

ludicrosity

Better than "manosphere".

The word you're looking for is ludicrousness, by the way. You can probably drop the second 'u' like the faggot Yank that you are.

[OngBonga]

That's definitely a dude who could turn me gay.

[Poopadoop]

That's definitely a dude who could turn me gay.

Possibly because it's a woman who just changed her gender on her id card. So technically if you banged her/him you wouldn't really be gay.

[OngBonga]

Possibly because it's a woman who just changed her gender on her id card. So technically if you banged her/him you wouldn't really be gay.

Legally I would be.

[wufwugy]

ludicrousness is a dumb word. ludicrosity sounds better.

[wufwugy]

wtf is a manosphere

[OngBonga]

wtf is a manosphere

Do you even watch the videos you link us?

[wufwugy]

Do you even watch the videos you link us?

I watched the portion I said to watch.

I also have bad hearing so I don't hear everything on poor quality videos.

[OngBonga]

Your thoughts on how black people are trying to reclaim the word so you can just claim that you're doing that too are just so ong's-gonna-ong that I don't really know how to rebut it.

You clearly realise that I'm just typing words as I smoke, so I don't really know why you indulge me when you oppose my position.

poop indulges me because, like me, he is semi-trolling, and finds it all somewhat amusing, while simultaneously being (mostly) interesting conversation.

[OngBonga]

Well watch the first few seconds and see that bitch make up the word "manosphere". I have no idea what she's talking about, I just wanna nail the dude who's interviewing her.

[OngBonga]

You didn't really address the main point of my post:

Yeah I was basically glossing over it and hoped you'd let me get away with it.

I agree the context matters. It's critical, in fact. I've been saying this myself, that the word isn't what matters, it's the context, or intent, the motive, whichever way you want to look at it. I'm not sure I agree that the colour of my skin plays a role in determining the context, though. Ultimately, the context of anything I say is controlled by me, by the things I say, by the intent. If someone else decides that the context of my language is different to intended, they are mistaken. If they are applying context to my language purely because of my race, they are being racist.

if you say it in an overly dry manner that gives the appearance that you're serious, you might downright dampen the night.

^ this one, assuming I can hide my smirk. That's why I love the internet so much, nobody can see me smirking.

[surviva316]

I'm not sure I agree that the colour of my skin plays a role in determining the context, though.

I could have added additional examples of you being a dad in my analogy versus not being a dad, of you being a loving dad versus a neglectful one, etc all adding additional context.

Also, the race thing comes down to background as much as it comes down to color of your skin. If a black Brit were to, fresh off the boat, in a top-hat and posh accent go up to someone in the Bronx and say "What's up, my nigger," it might not go over so well. Likewise, there's a history of non-black but peoples of vaguely brown decent who grew up in American ghettos saying the same thing and it being (generally, for all those with the knowledge and appreciation of its context) accepted.

Finally, in most cases, it's not as big a deal as it is with this particular word. This is specifically because of its unique history of being purposefully re-appropriated by a certain peoples and re-mainstreamed for a specific cause. If a gay person were to walk into a LGBTQ demonstration and say "Wassup, faggots," while it would probably sting at least a bit less than a straight person doing it (especially with additional context, like it's said by a close friend in a jovial way), it would still be mostly the same. The whole reason anyone can say the n-word, black or white, in any context where it seems mundane is exactly because of this history of a certain people re-appropriating and normalizing it, otherwise it'd be some degree of cringey regardless of who uses it. So if you're not from that particular people using it in that particular way, then it's going to be comparably cringey to if that word were used by a black person in an alternate timeline where the word was never re-appropriated.

[surviva316]

...

It's also *maybe* worth noting (but almost certainly not worth it) that I do think JKDS is kinda onto something that the appropriation and counter-appropiation and n-word edgelords and the debate over this whole thing has gotten so old at this point (hell, most of a decade has gone by since we had this discussion post-BF), that some of its edge probably has at least somewhat dulled in at least some contexts where it's not used in an obviously hateful way. But I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on that matter ...

[OngBonga]

Ok well allow me rephrase the comment you quoted of mine...

I'm not sure the colour of my skin should play a role in determining context.

The fact it does is kinda my problem, to be honest. I guess I'm indirectly acknowledging that you're right, while arguing you shouldn't be.

[wufwugy]

Color of skin is only relevant on this issue due to racism.

[boost]

I think the reclaiming of the word has so far been an utter failure. If you reclaim the word, with the intent to deflate it's punching power, you cannot also be offended by the word.

Take for example, "Nasty woman." Sure it never had the sting that nigger did (does), but it was successfully reclaimed, and now if a left leaning woman is called a "nasty woman" by a man, whether joking, intending insult, or whatever, she will likely reply, "damn right I am!"

All that being said, the campaign to reclaim nigger was started when, essentially, only racists were using the word to insult and denigrate black people. The goal was to deny these racists the power that the word had carried-- if the campaign had not ever been started, you would not be saying the word, except maybe in an academic context, and so the failure of the well meaning (if always doomed) campaign should not change your use of the word.

[Poopadoop]

the campaign to reclaim nigger was started when, essentially, only racists were using the word to insult and denigrate black people. The goal was to deny these racists the power that the word had carried-- if the campaign had not ever been started, you would not be saying the word, except maybe in an academic context, and so the failure of the well meaning (if always doomed) campaign should not change your use of the word.

Interesting analysis, but the bolded is where I think you go wrong.

First, you generally cannot ascribe a goal to a linguistic development. It's not like black people got together and campaigned for reclaiming the word. There was no centralized organisation involved in it; it just happened more or less spontaneously afaik. The fact that a word can have its original interpretation altered over time is not unique to the word 'nigger'; it happens all the time. 'Gay' used to mean 'happy', 'silly' used to mean 'blessed', etc. etc.

Second, if there was a goal, it would not have been to deny power to racists (though it may have been a 'fuck you' to racists, see below). Racists can still use the word with its same harmful effects, and if they couldn't, black people wouldn't be offended by white people using it (which afaik they still are - haven't tested that theory myself and don't plan to). More apt would be to describe the purpose of using the word when addressing a fellow black person as a way of identifying with an in-group. Like saying 'nigger' instead 'my brother', which used to be in common use among American blacks when I was a kid.

But, there probably never was a conscious goal behind adopting the word nigger. It just came about in an ironic sense, as analogous to calling your friend 'moron'. You and he both know it is only teasing, and in that context the word has little if any negative connotation.

White people getting up in arms about the use of the word 'nigger' between black people reflecting some kind of racist use of language, and crying foul because they're not allowed in on the joke, fail at irony imo. The effect of black people's use of the word among themselves has been to remove not enable the racist overtone. It's no more racist than calling your friend 'moron' in a joking manner is a sign of an anti-mentally-handicapped mentality. If however, you call a person with Down's Syndrome 'moron' you're being a douche.

OTOH, I can kind of understand how whites might think the word's being used indirectly by some black people as a way to fuck with the heads of white people. Like when the teacher calls you and your friend 'boneheads' and so you start calling each other 'bonehead' in front of the teacher. It's mocking the teacher, right?

In the end, I guess my advice to people who think this is unfair to whites is that they should try to see the history of the word and understand why some black people enjoy using it in an ironic sense. In the end, having one word that they can use but you can't is not really a huge travesty of justice or whatever. Just let it go.

[wufwugy]

Excellent points.

[boost]

Right, so I think you're absolutely wrong in thinking that no people of standing in the community ever called for reclaiming the word with the goal of disarming racists. And even if this were true, it is undeniably a meme, and whether it stems from some authority or not does not matter. So, I believe my point stands, insofar as the purpose of using the word is to reclaim it from the racists, it has been a failure.

Second, if there was a goal, it would not have been to deny power to racists (though it may have been a 'fuck you' to racists, see below). Racists can still use the word with its same harmful effects, and if they couldn't, black people wouldn't be offended by white people using it (which afaik they still are - haven't tested that theory myself and don't plan to). More apt would be to describe the purpose of using the word when addressing a fellow black person as a way of identifying with an in-group. Like saying 'nigger' instead 'my brother', which used to be in common use among American blacks when I was a kid.

You're making a logical error here-- the fact that the initiative has failed cannot be proof the initiative does not exist. If the goal followed the linguistic development rather than the other way around, this still doesn't have any bearing on my post. The initiative exists and it has, so far, been a failure.

As to your claim that nigger, when used by black people, is a different word-- you are partially correct. So, while its use may have originally stemmed from an ironic use of the slur, nigger (more precisely "nigga"), when used as a synonym for "brotha," is no longer meaningfully tied to its origins. However, this unfortunately gives cover to black people who use both nigger and nigga as a derogatory slur towards other black people, e.g. "that stingy nigga", "he's a good for nothin nigger", etc. I think that most people who are accepting of blacks' use of the word as a term of endearment, including the black people who themselves use it, don't consciously recognize this distinction. This continued and sanctioned use of the slur within the black community is neither good for it, nor society as a whole.

In the end, I guess my advice to people who think this is unfair to whites is that they should try to see the history of the word and understand why some black people enjoy using it in an ironic sense. In the end, having one word that they can use but you can't is not really a huge travesty of justice or whatever. Just let it go.

I think this last paragraph, and in particular the bolded last sentence, belies the baselessness of your argument. It is a quagmire of a topic, it is deep in the weeds, but it is most certainly not insignificant. We can take this line of thinking to the absurd and make the same dismissive gestures on any topic until we realize that the most important topic, until we rand all the possible topics, is the ranking of topics. Trying to switch the subject when it's apparent no one is going to budge and even the dead horse is getting tired is admirable, but ushering the discussion to a new topic while simultaneously being dismissive is anything but.

[Poopadoop]

Right, so I think you're absolutely wrong in thinking that no people of standing in the community ever called for reclaiming the word with the goal of disarming racists.

I may well be wrong, but then - who are these people? I have never heard anyone of stature say such a thing.

[boost]

Read the whole post. I'm not going to do the work, because ultimately the point doesn't pivot on whether or not persons of authority initiated or even ever espoused the meme. The meme exists and is widespread.

And to go one step further, I again encourage you to read the whole post, because, again even the existence of this meme, and its subsequent failure is not the strongest argument against black peoples' use of the word.

And one last point.. I'm trying to avoid identity politics here, but your framing of the debate as something happening only outside of the black community, or that it's only non blacks calling for a moratorium on the use of nigger-- well it's simply wrong. You're wrong on this issue, even if it's only insomuch as you think you're on the side of black people.

[Poopadoop]

I think you're absolutely wrong in thinking that no people of standing in the community ever called for reclaiming the word with the goal of disarming racists.

the initiative has failed

Read the whole post.

I don't need to re-read your whole post to ask you whether there's any evidence for your specific arguments. The evidence wasn't in your post, that's why I asked for it. Your argument was that black people deliberately decided in an organised fashion to make the word 'nigger' lose its power by using it in a different way, and this was led by some person or persons, and it failed. I'm arguing it didn't happen that way, and asking how you came to your specific conclusion.

I'm not going to do the work, because

I'm not interested in doing the work myself to back up your points either, that's not how arguments work. Either back them up yourself or admit you don't have the evidence and it's just conjecture on your part, and that my interpretation is a priori just as likely as yours to be the correct one - in fact more so since it doesn't rely on events that I have no evidence for having ever happened.

ultimately the point doesn't pivot on whether or not persons of authority initiated or even ever espoused the meme. The meme exists and is widespread.

The point was that the effort was deliberate and it failed. It absolutely depends on the above.

[boost]

To be clear, I don't spend much time thinking about this topic, and I don't know where I'd rank its importance among topics concerning the African American community, American society, or whatever other category-- but when it comes up, and if we are going to talk about it, however uncomfortable it makes us, I think we should talk about it in an intellectually consistent and honest way.

Anyways, what's the next topic at hand? The wearing of the hijab? When human life begins? How tall of a wall do you have to propose and how does the judge need to be for compulsory reclusion?

[BananaStand]

Anyways, what's the next topic at hand?

Can we work on banning the word "fascist". I don't find it particularly offensive or anything, it just seems to me that 99.9% of people who use it lately, don't know what it means.

[OngBonga]

Let's ban banning.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The problem with use of that word is that its use is racism, so long as the sole reason I would be scorned - even if I used it in identical context and meaning as "good friend," and not as a derogatory - is due to my skin's melanin content.

Any argument which says its use is not racist is ignoring the fact that the context or meaning of the word as used is irrelevant when compared to the skin color of the person who used it.

I agree with boost that - regardless of whether its initiation came from some singular authority or if it was a collective decision made by individuals - the useage was to reclaim the word. In similar way that I self-identify as a geek / nerd / etc. Yeah, some people say those words with scorn, but I say them with pride, so I'm not bothered.

I'm not sure if it's a failure, since it has been so effectively reclaimed that ANY use by non-black people is regarded as obviously offensive. Shit, that one sports commentator lost his job because he called a black woman, "nappy headed," which literally means, "tightly curled hair," which I'm fairly certain applies to most black people and some non-black as well. Thing is, that "nappy headed" is used relatively interchangeably in black culture with "nigga," so any use by a non-black is deemed racist.