Christianity could be a higher order way of organizing lives

[oskar]

Depends on what you mean by explain and logically. There's plenty of good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically.

The point of this thread is explaining one reason that a doctrine might be a good thing. If you are a normal human you act in normal human ways, yet if you have a doctrine that is better than normal human, it can propel you to act in better than normal human ways.

It can also make you act way way worse.
Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

Can you give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically?

[wufwugy]

It can also make you act way way worse.
Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

Then we agree.

If you could give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically (this is all I've been asking for this entire thread)

What kind of fathering or mothering makes for a society that lasts for very many generations?

Nobody really knows an exact answer to that question. Indeed one of the most logical ways to answer that question is to look at practices and ideas that have survived. We might not know what in a framework that has survived is creating fitness, but we do know that the framework is associated with survival and most probably fitness.

[Poopadoop]

Can I just organise my life around Aesop's fables? They have a lot of morality in them and are a lot easier to get through than the Bible.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/

[oskar]

Can I just organise my life around Aesop's fables? They have a lot of morality in them and are a lot easier to get through than the Bible.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

[wufwugy]

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

Certainly. I'm not sure anybody here would challenge that.

[Poopadoop]

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

[oskar]

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

See and they even give you a small CONTEXT CUE if you were to misinterpret it so you wouldn't start wearing silly hats and do silly things.

[wufwugy]

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

The Bible has many flaws, there's no debating that.

The intention of the thread was to investigate the idea that maybe people are serious savages that naturally act in ways that lifestyle frameworks, like Christianity, can and do positively correct for. In my estimation, my family is a good example of people whose natural ability to navigate the world is of lower quality than the adoption of the Christian ethos in their lives is at navigating the world. I think this is very common outside of my family too.

[OngBonga]

Can I just organise my life around Aesop's fables? They have a lot of morality in them and are a lot easier to get through than the Bible.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/

Wasn't the hare and the tortoise one of his? Load of bollocks. What's the moral of that story? Don't go to sleep a few meters from the end of the race just because you're miles ahead? I tell you what, anyone who needs to learn that lesson should learn the fucking hard way instead of being taught about a race between two poorly matched animals.

I'd prefer a boxing match between a midget and a giant, where the giant turns his back and starts playing to the crowd, so the midget stabs him in the back of the neck. THAT'S a fucking story.

[Poopadoop]

Wasn't the hare and the tortoise one of his? Load of bollocks. What's the moral of that story? Don't go to sleep a few meters from the end of the race just because you're miles ahead? I tell you what, anyone who needs to learn that lesson should learn the fucking hard way instead of being taught about a race between two poorly matched animals.

I'f prefer a boxing match between a midget and a giant, where the giant turns his back and starts playing to the crowd, so the midget stabs him in the back of the neck. THAT'S a fucking story.

The great thing about these stories is you can flesh out the basic plot line any way you like and people will go 'aaah, what a story'. Religion and Hollywood have known this for years.

[BananaStand]

What's the moral of that story? Don't go to sleep a few meters from the end of the race just because you're miles ahead?

I thought the moral of that story was "slow and steady wins the race". In other words, don't be discouraged at a lack of immediate success. Keep grinding, stick to the plan, one step at a time, don't worry about what other people are doing, etc etc etc.

It's about the tortoise, not the hare. In your interpretation, the lesson is "If you have superior ability, crush your opponent in embarrassing fashion". You might be confusing Aesop with Sun Tzu

[MadMojoMonkey]

It's about the tortoise, not the hare. In your interpretation, the lesson is "If you have superior ability, crush your opponent in embarrassing fashion". You might be confusing Aesop with Sun Tzu

Ha. Good one.
(No sarcasm. That made me laugh)

[OngBonga]

I thought the moral of that story was "slow and steady wins the race". In other words, don't be discouraged at a lack of immediate success. Keep grinding, stick to the plan, one step at a time, don't worry about what other people are doing, etc etc etc.

It's about the tortoise, not the hare. In your interpretation, the lesson is "If you have superior ability, crush your opponent in embarrassing fashion". You might be confusing Aesop with Sun Tzu

Slow and steady wins the race? No it didn't, the only reason tortoise won is because the hare was dicking about. If it's about the tortoise and not the hare, it's even more dumb than I remember.

Don't give up, because even though your rival is vastly superior, he might be a moron. /moral

[Poopadoop]

Slow and steady wins the race? No it didn't, the only reason tortoise won is because the hare was dicking about. If it's about the tortoise and not the hare, it's even more dumb than I remember.

Don't give up, because even though your rival is vastly superior, he might be a moron. /moral

Lol. Well, the tortoise could have just said 'Fuck it, i'll never win against the hare' and taken a nap himself. Then he would have lost. Point is, he couldn't anticipate what the hare's performance would be, but he was never going to win if he didn't try.

Also, the tortoise is an idiot for agreeing to that race in the first place, and sometimes idiots win. So another moral is to take heart if you're an idiot because being an idiot doesn't guarantee failure.

Finally, the hare's hubris cost him because he accepted a contest that had no upside for him. If he beats the tortoise, everyone just shrugs and goes 'Yeah no shit you won, you're a hare and he's a tortoise. So what?' But if he loses, he looks like a total dickass. All his hare buddies probably trolled him relentlessly after that, as did the rest of the animals in the forest. 'Hahahaha, you lost to a tortoise? Fail!"

A lot of lessons for a 30 second story. If it was in the Bible, the race would be preceded by three pages of "the hare begot another hare, who begot another, and so on...". And then after the race the hare's buddies would stone the tortoise or some shit.

[oskar]

...

Can you give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically?

[wufwugy]

...

What is the effect of communal prayer and worship on the longevity of a society?

[oskar]

What is the effect of communal prayer and worship on the longevity of a society?

idk. What's the effect of rolling heads down one side of the temple and the headless bodies down the other for longevity of a society?
If you want to say that communal prayer is good stuff, I think you need to explain how it's good stuff and not just point to the fact that it's a thing and say because it's a thing it's good stuff. That's very obvious circular reasoning.
The Kakapo and the Marabou stork survived. That doesn't mean it was a great idea. Survival isn't necessarily a sign of excellence.

[wufwugy]

If you want to say that communal prayer is good stuff,

It might not be good. Nobody knows, but we DO know that there is plenty of good stuff in the human world that we do not understand and cannot explain logically.

The Kakapo and the Marabou stork survived. That doesn't mean it was a great idea. Survival isn't necessarily a sign of excellence.

Completely agree.

Survival is, however, an important mode of evaluation when it comes to things we otherwise have little understanding of.

[spoonitnow]

Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

People do that and much worse without the influence of religion. I think you may overestimate innate morality.

[wufwugy]

People do that and much worse without the influence of religion. I think you may overestimate innate morality.

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

[spoonitnow]

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

The entire concept of reasoning with people is mistaken with the concept of being effective at persuading them.

[wufwugy]

The entire concept of reasoning with people is mistaken with the concept of being effective at persuading them.

Very much so.

[wufwugy]

With that in mind, religion is EXTREMELY persuasive, maybe the most persuasive thing ever. That suggests that if the tenets of the religion are better than the natural function of the human, the religion might be on net a good for humanity.

[spoonitnow]

With that in mind, religion is EXTREMELY persuasive, maybe the most persuasive thing ever. That suggests that if the tenets of the religion are better than the natural function of the human, the religion might be on net a good for humanity.

I'd agree to the degree that it's used for good. It can be used for evil as well. It's just a tool, etc etc.

[Poopadoop]

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

I think you may be extrapolating a bit too far from your family to the general population. If you came to me or a lot of other people and said 'hey this is what Jesus would do', you may as well be telling me it's what Batman would do. I think I'd be more impressed by the wise and articulate dog story frankly.

But to speak to your immediate problem if it pushes the right buttons to quote scripture and all that as opposed to trying to use reason, then by all means testify.

[wufwugy]

I think you may be extrapolating a bit too far from your family to the general population. If you came to me or a lot of other people and said 'hey this is what Jesus would do', you may as well be telling me it's what Batman would do. I think I'd be more impressed by the wise and articulate dog story frankly.

Yeah I'm speaking in terms of people who basically are sufficiently Christian. In terms of people acting like normal homo sapiens and fucking shit up because of it, that applies to humankind all over the place. The Christian solution is obviously for those who appeal to the Christian belief.

[wufwugy]

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

inb4 somebody correctly points out that I am blaming others like a hypocrite. Even though I'm not really a part of the family problems I am discussing, I could have solved for all of them if I had sufficiently humbled myself and made the right sacrifices that would have led to those solutions.

[spoonitnow]

inb4 somebody correctly points out that I am blaming others like a hypocrite. Even though I'm not really a part of the family problems I am discussing, I could have solved for all of them if I had sufficiently humbled myself and made the right sacrifices that would have led to those solutions.

I don't know if that's the case, but I get your general sentiment.

[oskar]

People do that and much worse without the influence of religion. I think you may overestimate innate morality.

That is the most logically sound thing I have ever read. I don't think anyone could ever possibly find a flaw in this line of thinking.

[wufwugy]

That is the most logically sound thing I have ever read. I don't think anyone could ever possibly find a flaw in this line of thinking.

This appeal to logic and reason, are we sure it's not an overestimation of innate morality, also an overestimation of peoples' ability to logic?

[oskar]

This appeal to logic and reason, are we sure it's not an overestimation of innate morality, also an overestimation of peoples' ability to logic?

I sure as hell overestimated your 'ability to logic' if you can't find a flaw in spoons statement there.

[wufwugy]

I sure as hell overestimated your 'ability to logic' if you can't find a flaw in spoons statement there.

I didn't express an opinion on that.