becoming pro and getting started

[|~|ypermegachi]

How many people here live off RB?

*ding* *ding*
RB alone accounts for 2-3ptbb/100.

[wufwugy]

Rakeback, lol.

If you're paying more in rake than your winrate is earning you, you're doing something wrong.

[Halv]

If you don't get rakeback you're doing something wrong.

[b-rabbit]

i can't focus on what you wrote wufwugy...something is distracting me

[Galapogos]

I <3 that a zero post count generated this huge thread without responding to it. He needs to come back and write a sticky on how to start sweet threads.

Lol.

Also, what's with this thread? I haven't been on here in like a month, did something go down while I was gone? This thread has a serious 2p2 vibe going.

[UG]

I <3 that a zero post count generated this huge thread without responding to it. He needs to come back and write a sticky on how to start sweet threads.

Lol.

Also, what's with this thread? I haven't been on here in like a month, did something go down while I was gone? This thread has a serious 2p2 vibe going.

Lots of threads have the 2p2 vibe going.

I don't like it either.

[Halv]

FUG

Edit: ()

[euphoricism]

I don't read p2p, so I have no idea what youre referencing -- explain?

[UG]

Lots of stuff, it's really too much to mention. It all goes back to the Lukie Theorem which states that anything that hits it big on 2p2 will eventually make it's way here....

"First,"
"[x]"

and lots of condescending attitudes make up the majority of it. Not a big deal, just seeing more of it.



P.S. I have no idea what's going on in this thread, so I'm not really speaking towards just *this* thread.

[jyms]

"First,"

This is one of the stupidest and most annoying things on the internet. It has made it's way to CR's and for a site trying to be professional and charging what they charge, you would think they would put a stop to it.

[chardrian]

I've watched UG's signature fall on his face for like 2 years now and it still doesn't get old.

[UG]

I've watched UG's signature fall on his face for like 2 years now and it still doesn't get old.

I was going to change it this weekend. Seriously.

I will not be changing it now. (maybe change the words in my sig though?)

[wufwugy]

i can't focus on what you wrote wufwugy...something is distracting me

Really? What would that be?

I need like nine more asses too. Or maybe some jumblies.

[donkbee]

I've watched UG's signature fall on his face for like 2 years now and it still doesn't get old.

ME TOO ... I laughed sooo hard when I first saw it way back when.

Don't change it, UG!

[UG]

I've watched UG's signature fall on his face for like 2 years now and it still doesn't get old.

ME TOO ... I laughed sooo hard when I first saw it way back when.

Don't change it, UG!

ok, it stays!

[spoonitnow]

Rakeback, lol.

If you're paying more in rake than your winrate is earning you, you're doing something wrong.

You would be very surprised.

[|~|ypermegachi]

Rakeback, lol.

If you're paying more in rake than your winrate is earning you, you're doing something wrong.

with a good rakeback deal it could account for 2-3ptbb/100....and rumour has it that no one is beating the game for more than 5ptbb/100 anymore...

[wufwugy]

Depends on the limit obv. At 1/2 I'm paying about 1ptbb in rake. If I make most of my money off rakeback I'm doing something wrong.

[PokerSwede]

I think Miffed had a very good point in buidling CV and experience in your area of work. I mean, sure, quite a few (at least students, younger, and singles) can make enough money or more than they do on some random shit job, but the time you're having a good time, playing poker as a job you're not doing anything for your future you'll have after you get tired of poker/online poker dies or whatever. So then you're gonna have to start studying/takin that shit job later in your life that others did when you were playing poker.

Ever since a couple of my friends have been living as poker "pro's", making quite some cash, doing fun stuff, travelling etc (not studying or anything), I've been tempted to go for the same route.
The advice I got was to play as much poker as possible, improve my skills and most importantly, get a bankroll to survive at least 6 months of break-even/slighlty losing months. So that's what I'd say you have to make sure if you wanna play poker as a job.
So for a year or so I've been having some veeeery boring jobs, not well paid and definately nothing long-time or for the future, but just something to do while I get my bankroll.
And now I've had my 6+ months backup bankroll for a little while and could almost live off the rakeback if I wanted to. So plan is to start studying, without takin loans, getting some boring job (enough of those now) or something like that - and get enough money from poker to pay bills etc and do fun stuff on my free time. 3 weeks in Thailand next spring, thanks to poker, for example!
It seems like a good idea.

'Cause I mean, the probability that I'll be able to make millions and be able to live off poker my whole life is not that big so making some cash to have a good time now for a few years and then start studying when I'm 30 seems kinda pointless, so might as well start now.

Sorry for the long post - work was extremly boring today so had to do soemthing :P

And wufwugy - what's wrong with living off rakeback? I know quite a few who does and make money on the games too...

[Jibalob]

The biggest problem I would have with "going pro" is not the financial burden, or lack of qualifications, but the fact I work in the finance sector.

If I went pro for 2 or 3 years and then had to fall back on my qualifications, it wouldnt look so good when my prospective employer looks at my C.V and says "what have you been doing for the past 3 years?" and I say "playing poker".

[PokerSwede]

The biggest problem I would have with "going pro" is not the financial burden, or lack of qualifications, but the fact I work in the finance sector.

If I went pro for 2 or 3 years and then had to fall back on my qualifications, it wouldnt look so good when my prospective employer looks at my C.V and says "what have you been doing for the past 3 years?" and I say "playing poker".

Exactly! A waste of time career-wise is what "going poker pro" is!

[spoonitnow]

Depends on the limit obv. At 1/2 I'm paying about 1ptbb in rake. If I make most of my money off rakeback I'm doing something wrong.

If you're paying more in rake than your winrate is earning you, you're doing something wrong.

Kinda changed what you said a bit, but I'll use this month's 200nl that I played to see.

13296 hands played, $1057.00 in rake paid. That's 264.25 ptbbs/13296 hands, or 1.99 ptbb/100 hands. (Make sure you don't use the "Total Rake" value which is very inaccurate but the MGR value from the Game Notes tab.)

Obviously if you're gaining more in rakeback than your winrate there is something wrong, but most players' winnings are less than or equal to the rake they pay these days, especially at 100nl and lower where the rate of the rake is considerably higher than 200nl.

[wufwugy]

What I said didn't change within context. As a professional player ('professional' has a strong enough implication that there are a few bills that need to be paid), you are doing something wrong if your winrate is less than rake or you're living off rakeback.

Back when I couldn't beat .50/1 for more than 2ptbb, I was doing something wrong. A few things, actually.

As far as beating the games for 5ptbb, it seems to me that good players still do. As somebody who is pretty much pro, I've found that my winrate needs to be pretty high to keep from playtilt as well as lifetilt.

[sauce123]

Euph, Renton, everyone- yea, I agree the 100/hr thing is pretty arbitrary. I guess what I'm saying more is that I, Ben, would not be comfortable going pro with a winrate of less than 100/hr.

Being a poker pro offers amazing independence and well, you get to play poker all day. Sweet.

at the same time it would be incredibly naive to say its easy. relative to being a successful student, worker, or athlete, poker is significantly more difficult. it is high stress, has sick variance (variable reenforcement) which is basically designed to fuck with the human mind. there is little room for error and you will have to work around the isolating social aspect of poker.

As far as risk of ruin goes, If my true winrate as a pro was 4bb/100 or higher at a given limit, 50 BI would be enough. depending on aggression and style, maybe 75.

If it was 2 bb/100 150 BI would be enough

If it was less than 2 bb/100 I don't think poker is worth playing.


ok, so lets consider an example of a 100nl pro who plays 40 hrs a week and makes 2 bb/100. assuming 6 tables this is 960/wk, approx 4k a month. when this is combined with inevitable 100k+ hand downswings, lack of passive benefits (insurance, retirement,) taxes we r in some trouble. 48k a year may sound like a lot, but i cant stress enough the quality of life problems, stress, and anxiety you would run being a pro like this.

[Thunder]

Totally irrelevant contribution from myself.

Firstly, and maybe off point, though I accept BR management is essential, I have noticed that quite a few famous pros only became so (or financially made for life) by ignoring this very subject. They each say "I did something I don't reccommend..." but they did it anyway. The latest to come to my attention is Paul Wasicka who sat down with his entire $5k roll and turned in into $50k by the end of the session. And $50k buys you into a lot more lucrative games on which to make even more money and therefore easier to become pro.

In fact, he lived outside his BR to even get that initial $5k with which he made $50k. If he hadn't, we may never have heard of him, he may never have been able to afford the satellite that took him to 2nd place in the 2006 WSOP, and he may still be one of the frustrated guys trying to eke out a living at .25/.5 whilst working part time in a restaurant.

I am not advocating ignoring BR guidelines at all. And yes, I know that these guys (Negreanu and co) are supremely gifted but the point I am making is that, due to the cost of living and the returns at small stakes, it's much easier to make money and become pro by playing and winning at higher stakes. And that for most people, that may include taking a shot at ignoring BR - be it a tourney or even sitting down at a much higher level cash game and hoping to hit a monster in your first few hands. If you do, you clean up, walk out and are now sufficently rolled to make good money and stay within your new and improved BR limits.



Secondly, Euph wrote: "wake up at 7 am, sit in traffic for an hour+, work with some boss bitching, get 30 minutes for lunch, sit in traffic for an hour+ on the way home, grab some fast food because you're exhausted, and then veg out on the couch all night until you fall asleep just to repeat it the next morning...they're not really living life, they're just surviving."

I've felt this ever since I left school. Yet people look at me as though I'm retarded when I mention that the "accepted" set up is wrong and that we are living to work rather than working to live.

Are they too dumb to realise or have then been anaesthetised by the doctrine of society and are thus sleepwalking to their graves? I don't know but if anyone's seen "They Live" then they know how I feel (ie: Roddy Piper).

I remember receiving an 'inspirational talk' whilst in my first job at Barclays Bank. The speaker was making the point about living the brand, throwing yourself into your work and was trying to imbue this with the throwaway precursor of: "you will spend most of your life at work so...."

Whoa! Back up! Did she really say that with a straight face? As if it's perfectly reasonable? OMG, she did! Quick, look around - is anyone else as gobsmacked as I am? OMG; no! They're nodding or just staring, blankly. Am I the only person to find that sentence spine chilling? Our very own loved ones are in our company far, far less than the people we wouldn't choose to hang around with out of free will - some of whom we positively hate - and yet no one shakes their head in disgust at this sentence??? Least of all this so called motivational speaker'?!?!?!?

Of all the things we love to do, are good at, the company we actually enjoy, we focus more on the things we don't want to do and places we don't want to be. The much vaunted "True Love" - from fiction to our parents saying we'll meet someone and settle down - is on the back burner. The things that make us happy are not prized more than giving some random stranger the balance on their account.

That sentence from that speaker will live with me forever.

Sure, we need to work but it takes up the vast majority of our time: 5 days out of 7 and with travelling involved, those 8 hour days (only 1/3 of your day) actually become 12+ (more than half). Chuck in a bit of sleep and you have just a few hours for the truly important things in your life: spouse, kids, pets, hobbies. Ie: the things that define you. Yet you get just a short time with them. If you're lucky, that is. If you're not too knackered. Or they're not too exhausted. Or out doing something else. Or working a different shift.

7 days in a week and so isn't 3 days work more fair? Giving you the majority of your time for the fun things in life? Despite our supposed intelligence, we are the only creatures to spend our lives doing the exact opposite of what we want and of what makes us happy. If there is a God, he's gotta be up there, smacking his head in disbelief at how we spurned eternal happiness, the Garden of Eden et al, and are now wasting our lives in this way.


Thirdly, and rant finished, I am intellectually and educationally gifted yet, for whatever reasons, now have no career to speak of. I love money but quality of life is more important. And that isn't centred around money. 4 years ago, and truly world class, I was on the verge of becoming a professional musician until I endured a significant injury. At the time I was earning £20k in my day job - which included 6 weeks holidays, private health, shares and 6 month sick pay.

The music route had masses of potential as I was doing session work, was about to film instructional DVDs etc but the initial base earning was £18k for touring 4 nights a week (though we knew bands earning £70k). And I would gladly have taken this. So as Euph and co have said, it all depends on your needs and your tolerence levels.

If you say to me, you can earn £60k a year but you'll work your arse off, work in the evenings and weekends and basically be a stressed slave or you can earn £15k doing something you truly love/that gives you freedom to enjoy life (even if it has to be 'free' pleasures) then I'll always choose the latter.

And because of my particulat scenario, I could go pro as long as I replaced my current salary (downswings included). Hell, even if I ran bad - my gf covers the mortgage and bills. I just need to actually get good enough at the damn game, lol!

The thing is, for me, if I was to win just £100k ($200k) then that would change my life forever amd would mean needing to work for a living is no more. And that freedom to enjoy life is mine. I could pay my mortgage and debts off and still have a massive chunk left over. In this case I could use that as a BR, live on it for a few years until it runs out or bank it and just work a part time job. Alternatively, I could invest it, buy a 2nd house to rent out, bank it in a 10% savings account and live off the interest.

Now for many of you, especially 1st time UK housebuyers, £100k wouldn't give you this freedom.

Now how that £100k comes about is moot. It could be a once in a lifetime lucky win in a tournament, like the GUKPT - and with less than 300 runners and soem shocking players it isn't that fanciful. Or it could be be developing a BR online like you guys have done.

[Jack Sawyer]

Amen buddy, now that's a nice post.


Whatever you choose to do, emphasize enjoyment over winning money.



This is the golden rule for that intagible called "happyness"

[Ash256]

Secondly, Euph wrote: "wake up at 7 am, sit in traffic for an hour+, work with some boss bitching, get 30 minutes for lunch, sit in traffic for an hour+ on the way home, grab some fast food because you're exhausted, and then veg out on the couch all night until you fall asleep just to repeat it the next morning...they're not really living life, they're just surviving."

I've felt this ever since I left school. Yet people look at me as though I'm retarded when I mention that the "accepted" set up is wrong and that we are living to work rather than working to live.

Are they too dumb to realise or have then been anaesthetised by the doctrine of society and are thus sleepwalking to their graves? I don't know but if anyone's seen "They Live" then they know how I feel (ie: Roddy Piper).

I am intellectually and educationally gifted yet, for whatever reasons, now have no career to speak of. I love money but quality of life is more important. And that isn't centred around money. 4 years ago, and truly world class, I was on the verge of becoming a professional musician until I endured a significant injury. At the time I was earning £20k in my day job - which included 6 weeks holidays, private health, shares and 6 month sick pay.

The music route had masses of potential as I was doing session work, was about to film instructional DVDs etc but the initial base earning was £18k for touring 4 nights a week *though we knew bands earning £70k). And I would gladly have taken this. So as Euph and co have said, it all depends on your needs and your tolerence levels.

If you say to me, you can earn £60k a year but you'll work your arse off, work in the evenings and weekends and basically be a stressed slave or you can earn £15k doing something you truly love/that gives you freedom to enjoy life (even if it has to be 'free' pleasures) then I'll always choose the latter.

And because of my particulat scenario, I could go pro as long as I replaced my current salary (downswings included). Hell, even if I ran bad - my gf covers the mortgage and bills. I just need to actually get good enough at the damn game, lol!

The thing is, for me, if I was to win just £100k ($200k) then that would change my life forever amd would mean needing to work for a living is no more. And that freedom to enjoy life is mine. I could pay my mortgage and debts off and still have a massive chunk left over. In this case I could use that as a BR, live on it for a few years until it runs out or bank it and just work a part time job. Alternatively, I could invest it, bu a 2nd house to rent out, bank it in a 10% savings account and live off the interest.

Now for many of you, especially 1st time UK hosuebuyers, £100k wouldn't give you this freedom.

Now how that £100k comes about is moot. It could be a once in a lifetime lucky win in a tournament, like the GUKPT. Or it oculd be be developing a BR online like you guys have done.

Wow, QFT, I feel the same about the people sleepwalking to their graves. Unfortunately I'd say that we have it worse than the sleepwalkers because they don't get all emo.

You should watch the original Vanishing Point.

It's funny, I'm on such a low income now that a £5k donkament win would probs change my life forever, unfortunately it'd take sick luck to do so and life isn't a film.

What was your professional music career? I'm aiming to become a professional electronic musician one day.

[Jack Sawyer]

I'm right at the crossroads myself

Either I become some sort of a bohemian artist/ design buff, traveling the world and taking pictures, etc

Or some sort of manager, probably in the offshore banking business, and I have to deal with the conditions similar to which Eupho described


Obviously, the most +EV choice is the most boring one, and also lacks freedom, and me being a Gemini, I need freedom to survive. To live a happy life.

Now, I couldv'e gone to study journalism/ photography/ etc., but for reasons I'm not going to discuss here, I couldn't leave my island back when I had the choice. Choices here are limited, so I chose bus admin instead.

If I can somehow win $200 a day playing poker, I'm way past my sustenance needs, and I'd be basically livin' large, barring skyrocketing oil prices.

But I'm not strong enough mentally to play poker for a living. Not yet, at least. I'm working very hard at this.

[badgers]

Excellent post, Thunder.

[jyms]

Our very own loved ones are in our company far, far less than the people we wouldn't choose to hang around with out of free will - some of whom we positively hate

This is something I've tried to explain to my wife many times when she wonders why I hate working for a living. 8 hrs ++ a day with people I would never associate with outside of my work environment.

[Phantaroth]

I didn't realize you actually got that much money from rakeback... are there any places that offer RB for Absolute or FT?

<3

[jyms]

yes, but not with existing accounts

[Jonny_MEMPHIS]

Anyone know where to find a guide to poker tracker, I know how to pull up the tables and insert the players to rate, but there seems to be so much more.

[badgers]

Anyone know where to find a guide to poker tracker, I know how to pull up the tables and insert the players to rate, but there seems to be so much more.

Fantastically random choice of thread
This is a great help imo. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&fpart=1&vc=1

[Thunder]

Ash,


My pro music career was varied. I was in a tribute band that had decided to go full time. Our main rivals, were pulling in over £60k each for 4 nights work a week. Then they hit cruise ships in the summer. And winter. Not bad eh? I was also in the process of creating instructional DVDs and also did session work too. i did the latter because you can only ever rely on yourself.

I mean, if you perform original music, your success is determined by whether the A&R man likes you (much like getting promoted at work). And most have no clue and only want a copy of what is popular right now. In terms of a band, you ever read about how a band splits up for musical differences and you think "you're making millions and getting laid like rock stars because you're....well....rockstars and yet you wanna throw it away?" I used to think "WTF? get a grip!" but it happens. I can fully relate and had perfectly good bands torn apart. So once again, you can only rely on yourself.

Becoming professional, as you can see, is fraught with too many things out of your control. Most of all it's who you know and not what you know. With that in mind, I set my own business up, rather than trying to make contacts and kiss arse to get my foot in the door as it were.

The good news, for me, is that going from serious, serious zero to world class has been of massive help for my poker development as I can relate so many things - as well as take heart from the fact that I eventually "made it". It's kinda like I've been here before. And though I am not yet good enough to recognise or understand many of the abstract elements and higher level rationale, I am at peace because in the music world it was pretty much the same where I developed a feel, an intuition that can't be explained. You're in the dark until - hopefully - you "get it". And when you do transcend you can see/hear so many things that 99.9% of others can't. And if ever I want to waver from the excellent, standard advice then I can fall back on when I did the same within music. And was proved right to do so and to follow my instincts.

Not only did I get there - and at an accelerated rate - but I started off with a much greater disadvantage than anyone possibly can when it comes to poker.



Jack,

My advice is to go for it. I have 2 mottos:

1) "It's better to regret the things that you have dont rather than the things you haven't."

2) "Every once in a while say 'what the fuck?!' 'What the fuck?!' gives you freedom. Freedom brings you opportunity. And opportunity makes your future."

My brother is trapped in a high paying IT job. He hates it. But cannot get out because of his lifestyle. And IT is the only sector where he can earn that kind of money. He can't go for a more interesting job as they all pay significantly less and he can't even set up his own business as he hasn't got time for it to grow. Don't become like him with your banking job.

I will always put happiness first. I didnt; at one point - and chased the career ladder but all that got me was bugger all. My injury curtailed that and my company didn't want to know. I've also been in industries that have suddenly gone tits up so I know full well that a job for life is very rare these days. And throughout, all I did was miss opportunities to be happy - such as playing with famous bands.

But that's me. Maybe that's not you. And I'll never play safe again.

The beauty of these mottos and the mindset is that it truly gives freedom and everything will work out. I've been able to walk out of jobs with nowhere to go and a mortgage payment due at the end of the month, and I've always managed it. It's not as daunting as people suggest. And the irony is, these people who are all doom and gloom are the ones who let their own fear frighten them and will never take a risk. Not even a calculated one.

And nothing beats sticking 2 fingers up to a crappy job - instead of working on out of fear. The freedom is immense. And hey, should you be so desperate, there's always a crappy job waiting for ya. They're everywhere.

I have the belief that everything will be fine - and like that miracle 2 outer on the river - something always happens to make it true.

[wufwugy]

Jack, just get better at poker. I'm making more money in half the time now than most of the people who told me I am a fool for putting my efforts into poker. I know most players won't say to ever really strive to play professionally unless you're already ballin, but I endeavored to do that back when I was a losing player because I knew I'd get somewhere great if I tried my hardest. And I've only just begun.

And your bitch is hot. Little too skinny and shiny, but I'd definitely let her enjoy making me a sandwich afterwards.

[salsa4ever]

we're faced with choices all the time, and it's my belief one should ask "is what I'm about to do going to take me closer to who I really am, or further away?"

Society has taught us to repress ourselves from a young age, and cloud our minds with desires that we've simply been manipulated into having. The sooner people realize that nothing in the world can make them happy except themselves, the better.

I've gone pro because that is a way of making a living that is authentic to who I am and leaves me with enough freedom to do what I want.

See also Thunder's post. I agree with what he had to say.

[jyms]

I'm still pro. I haven't made $100 in almost all of my hours since doing this Aug10. It's still early, but I will be the happiest person alive if I can get out of the woods and be more financially free. Goal one, get through Xmas, after that It's clear sailing.

[Jack Sawyer]

TNX guys

I really really really appreciate your pieces of advice

[spoonitnow]

I play poker so I can go piss whenever I want.

[jyms]

I play poker so I can go piss whenever I want.

I find it's the opposite now.

[wufwugy]

Urine receptacle ftw

[Ash256]

we're faced with choices all the time, and it's my belief one should ask "is what I'm about to do going to take me closer to who I really am, or further away?"

Society has taught us to repress ourselves from a young age, and cloud our minds with desires that we've simply been manipulated into having. The sooner people realize that nothing in the world can make them happy except themselves, the better.

I've gone pro because that is a way of making a living that is authentic to who I am and leaves me with enough freedom to do what I want.

See also Thunder's post. I agree with what he had to say.

<3

This thread is dripping with existentialism and I love it.

[Jonny_MEMPHIS]

thanks, that link is awesome. Game already improving

[martindcx1e]

I play poker so I can go piss whenever I want.

I find it's the opposite now.

You piss so you can play poker all you want?

[jyms]

When I had a job I could walk away to do whatever I wanted. Now I am afraid to sit out and miss hands when at a good table in case the fish loses his stack to someone else.