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  1. #1
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    But it's not logic, it's just something that could become logic, protologic.
    If even that. proto-reason seems more appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I'm thinking of a time where we were asked what would happen if a ball attached to a thread was spinning around a table in a circle. What would happen if you cut the string? My initial guess was that it would shoot out in a wide curve, but of course the answer is that it goes in a straight line. There are countless times where you have to realize that your intuition is wrong and needs to be changed.
    I don't see what this example has to do with logic. It has to do with background knowledge and predicting an outcome. This is physics, not logic. At most, this is a test of reasoning skills, assuming that the guesser has enough of knowledge of the laws of motion to even reason out the correct answer.

    What does this have to do with evaluating consistency of claims made by a set of statements?

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Logic is one of those things where you can't be half right. If it's not proper logic, it's not logic.
    I agree. Logic is built around the concepts of truth and falsehood, where "given" statements are true by assertion, and the goal is to determine if the conclusion statements are implied by those asserted givens.

    I am struggling to imagine how children might possess this capability, but I'm drawing a blank on any examples.
  2. #2
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    "The free market is great when you can do it." -me
    "Look, when we can do it, the free market is great!" -you

    I'd like to add, good evidence doesn't show that you're right, good evidence shows that you're not wrong.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 05-08-2016 at 08:39 AM.
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  3. #3
    Wuf -- I think you're generally right that people make decisions that they think are right at that particular moment. But that doesn't mean that they are acting rationally, objectively speaking.

    All of your examples show that people can act extremely irrationally -- doesn't that conflict with an economic model that relies on the premise that all agents in the system are acting in their rational self-interest?
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    Wuf -- I think you're generally right that people make decisions that they think are right at that particular moment. But that doesn't mean that they are acting rationally, objectively speaking.

    All of your examples show that people can act extremely irrationally -- doesn't that conflict with an economic model that relies on the premise that all agents in the system are acting in their rational self-interest?
    In the context of economic self-interest, rationality =! reason.

    Moving your hand away from a flame because it hurts is rational. Jumping because a loud noise scares you is rational. Getting upset with somebody because you don't like their skin color is rational. Buying Lucky Charms because you want Lucky Charms is rational. Buying Fruit Loops instead, for whatever reason, is also rational. Cutting yourself because you like pain is rational. Attempting an unsuccessful suicide because you want attention is rational.

    In a sense, doing what you want is the most rational thing you can do. Irrational would be if your hand touches a hot burner and your brain sends all the signals that it's hot and you feel the pain and you think the pain and you have no reason whatsoever to not pull your hand away, yet you don't pull your hand away. In this sense, irrationality is describing the impossible. This is rational: wanting something is wanting it. This is irrational: wanting something is not wanting it.

    Economic rationality is like saying that organisms are causal agents. Economists describe rationality through utility because that's the only way it makes sense. The other options are that behavior is random or counter-rational like the leave-hand-on-burner-even-though-brain-says-pull-away example.

    Probably all of the confusion can be cleared up by noting that rationality in economics is totally different than the way the term is used colloquially and in other fields. Economic rationality has nothing to do with it being "good" or "smart" but with it being what you most want at the time.

    Economic rationality may seem like an unimportant concept since it's completely arbitrary and unfalsifiable, but part of why economists like it is because it provides a useful perspective. For example, when you hear about somebody committing suicide, you think "it couldn't have been so bad, that was a bad decision, etc.", but what economists say is that the person committed suicide because it was the best option they saw, it was the thing they wanted the most. I would argue that this is intuitive. Even though you may think committing suicide for the types of reasons people typically do is unreasonable, I suspect you would agree that it only makes sense that somebody would do it if they saw it as the best option. I mean, when somebody kills himself, the net conscious/subconscious value assessment of his options is not "I most want to eat this burger;" it is instead "I most want to kill myself."
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-09-2016 at 02:09 PM.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    In this sense, irrationality is describing the impossible.
    So irrationality can't exist within an economic model? It assumes that anything anyone does, regardless of how crazy, stupid, or self-destructive, is rational? I don't see how any model that's based on such a flimsy premise could work.

    Unless you destroy the definition of rational, I guess.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    So irrationality can't exist within an economic model? It assumes that anything anyone does, regardless of how crazy, stupid, or self-destructive, is rational? I don't see how any model that's based on such a flimsy premise could work.

    Unless you destroy the definition of rational, I guess.
    A model isn't meant to be reality it's meant to be a model. How well that model works dictates its use. As far as I'm aware (not very) economic models are incredibly simple in their scope when compared to what you'd expect if a model were to predict reality.

    Emotional factors clearly play a role in decisions people make in real life and I'm sure Wuf has said in the past there is a whole section of economics that tries to deal with quantifying these emotions.
    Last edited by Savy; 05-09-2016 at 03:17 PM.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Emotional factors clearly play a role in decisions people make in real life and I'm sure Wuf has said in the past there is a whole section of economics that tries to deal with quantifying these emotions.
    I think what happens is probably that "crazy, stupid, and self-destructive" behavior is really hard to model, so economists tend to understand it little. I've seen it said that after economists learn about all the straight forward behavior stuff that makes sense, then they learn about the stuff that seems less sensible. But really I can't say specifically. Economists certainly try to model all behavior related to production and consumption of goods and services, but a lot of them don't think much of the psychology stuff brought by famous "irrationalist" people like Dan Ariely contributes much.

    P.S. From glancing over Wiki, apparently "behavioral economists" don't even say they study irrationality, but "bounds of rationality."
  8. #8
    Well crap, that definition is so vague that it practically loses all meaning. From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational:

    based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings
    So economists decide they can eliminate the meaning of a word and then try to use it to justify their models? Sounds like bullshit to me.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    Well crap, that definition is so vague that it practically loses all meaning. From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational:



    So economists decide they can eliminate the meaning of a word and then try to use it to justify their models? Sounds like bullshit to me.
    Many models are created to be testable; the economic view of rationality is not about justifying models. Rational behavior is a base assumption that allows the field to make sense. Things are no different in other sciences, where they require base assumptions to allow the science to have meaning.

    As for the changed meaning of the word, this is also common in all sorts of fields. It's frustrating to deal with, but scientists have never been easy to deal with.

    So irrationality can't exist within an economic model? It assumes that anything anyone does, regardless of how crazy, stupid, or self-destructive, is rational? I don't see how any model that's based on such a flimsy premise could work.

    Unless you destroy the definition of rational, I guess.
    Economic models aren't attempts to gauge that which is "crazy, stupid, or self-destructive" behavior, but to describe production and consumption of goods and services. To begin this process, economists assume that behavior is caused by the ultimate net "want" of individuals, and they call it "rational."

    As for irrationality in economics, I don't know enough to say much on this. The contribution by "irrationalists" in the field is pretty small, and it's not really even economics in the first place; it's psychology. It can be said that there is some crossover, I guess. As far as I can tell, my university only offers an economics course dealing with something along the lines of irrationality like once every five years or something. It appears that the models that psychologists like Kahneman challenged still are the most functional.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-09-2016 at 03:28 PM.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    As for the changed meaning of the word, this is also common in all sorts of fields. It's frustrating to deal with, but scientists have never been easy to deal with.
    They didn't change the meaning, they eliminated it. Based on your definition, when an economist says, "Agents act rationally", they might as well just say "Agents act." Their intended meaning is the same thing in both statements. Because from what you're saying, it doesn't matter what a person's reasons are -- all that matters is that they did something.

    So why even use the word "rational" anymore?

    Also, I don't know that the term "scientist" applies to a person that thinks that rationality is devoid of reason and comes up with theories that are not meant to be tested or provable.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    They didn't change the meaning, they eliminated it. Based on your definition, when an economist says, "Agents act rationally", they might as well just say "Agents act." Their intended meaning is the same thing in both statements. Because from what you're saying, it doesn't matter what a person's reasons are -- all that matters is that they did something based on reasons.

    So why even use the word "rational" anymore?

    Also, I don't know that the term "scientist" applies to a person that thinks that rationality is devoid of reason and comes up with theories that are not meant to be tested or provable.
    I added the bolded. That's where the assumption of rationality comes from. Economists say that when people do things, they have rationale for doing them. They assume this rationale is a conscious/subconscious valuation of net benefit, which is another way of saying that which is most desired. They claim desire is adequate since costs and benefits really just boil down to desire. When you're buying a burger for $5, really what you're saying is that you desire that burger more than any other $5 item, $5 of work, or the next best option (like $6 tacos or instead eating nothing and dieting like you had been thinking about).
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I added the bolded. That's where the assumption of rationality comes from. Economists say that when people do things, they have rationale for doing them. They assume this rationale is a conscious/subconscious valuation of net benefit, which is another way of saying that which is most desired. They claim desire is adequate since costs and benefits really just boil down to desire. When you're buying a burger for $5, really what you're saying is that you desire that burger more than any other $5 item, $5 of work, or the next best option (like $6 tacos or instead eating nothing and dieting like you had been thinking about).
    But economists don't care about the actual reasons, right? Which strips the term "rational" of any meaning. Especially since you claim that in economics, all behavior is by definition rational.

    Instead of "Agents act rationally", you can replace it with "Agents act based on reasons that are irrelevant to rest of our theory." Which, again, might as well be "Agents act."

    I'm still confused why they even bother to use the word rational.
  13. #13
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    This is fascinating and I'm really glad that NightGizmo is making these observations. I'm curious to follow what wuf's reply is.
  14. #14
    It should also be noted that economists aren't uniform on the topic. An example is that some economists never discuss behavior as if it's irrational and some often do. This just makes it all extra confusing. A lot of economists don't take the logic as far as I've presented here (but still some do), and this is a big part of why the stuff doesn't make sense.

    The field has far too much quantitative talent and too little qualitative talent. Graduate programs prioritize non-economics quantitative talent (to such a degree that it has shown itself as a significant problem in economics at the political level), and most that work with economics in business misuse it all the time (the most common example is saying "demand" when they mean "quantity demanded"). But that's a whole nother can of worms.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-09-2016 at 06:50 PM.
  15. #15
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Because, frankly, if the theory of economics starts with, "People are batshit crazy and random, but we need to figure out how to be more awesome in this morass while being also batshit crazy and random." then I can at least agree with the first principles.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Because, frankly, if the theory of economics starts with, "People are batshit crazy and random, but we need to figure out how to be more awesome in this morass while being also batshit crazy and random." then I can at least agree with the first principles.
    The assumption is that actions come from preferences. Maybe somebody can have batshit crazy or random preferences, but the claim of rationality is that it's the preference being acted upon.

    How can you resolve that "maximize their utility" essentially means "do whatever they feel like doing?"
    Utility is preference. Maximized utility would be always acting on preference. The basic assumption of rational behavior is that people always act on preference.

    I won't argue against rationality being a poor choice of word. I mean, since it's confusing, there's the proof in the pudding right there that it's a poor choice of words. The reason the discussion of rationality emerges on this forum is somebody points out an example of dumb or inefficient behavior and says that's evidence against the assumption of rationality. I say this isn't evidence against rationality because the dumb or inefficient behavior was still based on preference.
  17. #17
    There is even more confusion since practitioners use the terms only within subsets of goods and services. However, this is inadequate philosophically. They do things like find utility by contrasting payments for types of goods and services. But this doesn't mean that utility exists for only paid for goods and services. Utility is necessarily something in all decisions. Yet when practice is this narrow idea of utility and rationality, it opens the door for people to counter the concepts by calling them inadequate.
  18. #18
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    So rational actor = not a literal puppet?

    Wait, are we literally saying that all creatures are rational actors, then?

    This broad definition no longer even applies specifically to humans.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    So rational actor = not a literal puppet?

    Wait, are we literally saying that all creatures are rational actors, then?

    This broad definition no longer even applies specifically to humans.
    We're saying that people are preferential actors and that it is rational to be preferential. In a sense, this is the most basic type of rationality. It's not a thoroughly thoughtful abstraction, but it certainly makes sense that when the options are (1) act on preference, (2) do not act on preference, or (3) act or do not act on preference randomly, then (1) is the most rational.

    I don't see anything wrong with the point that it could apply to other species, other than it not being terribly useful since we're not modeling economic behavior of other species.
  20. #20
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    Free markets in a nutshell: individuals know better what's good for society than experts and collective wisdom.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Free markets in a nutshell: individuals know better what's good for society than experts and collective wisdom.
    What? You're just stating an opinion about free markets, not defining the term in any meaningful way.
  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    What? You're just stating an opinion about free markets, not defining the term in any meaningful way.
    You may be lacking some historical context of this conversation. That is what wuf seems to claim. My personal opinion is completely and strikingly different.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    You may be lacking some historical context of this conversation. That is what wuf seems to claim. My personal opinion is completely and strikingly different.
    Oops, fair enough.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Free markets in a nutshell: individuals know better what's good for society than experts and collective wisdom.
    It's more like this: one of the most foundational theories of economics -- rational choice theory -- says that aggregate social behavior results from the behavior of individual actors.

    From this emerges the reasoning that nobody has the level of expertise on your personal decisions like you do; therefore it is you who should make your decisions and bear the results. This same paradigm works at all levels, including families, businesses, and communities. Expertise and wisdom of crowds are of the utmost importance to society, but mandates and regulations dished out by a handful of bureaucrats to the enormous quantities of masses is not an effective way to engage them.

    Keep in mind that those with expertise on economics are intense proponents of free markets, and that bureaucrats do not have enough expertise to command trillions of decisions from above.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-12-2016 at 09:45 PM.
  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It's more like this: one of the most foundational theories of economics -- rational choice theory -- says that aggregate social behavior results from the behavior of individual actors.
    What's missing from this? It can't just be individual actions determine group actions.

    And, surely some regulations are of great benefit to society. I'm in no position to protect myself from fraud, for example.
  26. #26
    I typed this at the end after having made the post, but moved it to the front:

    ***The final four paragraphs are probably the most important points I've made on this subject. They gets to the heart of why my position is what it is. They are textbook economics and they gets to the heart of why economists are intense proponents of free markets, why most economists favor deregulation in most ways, and why world renowned economists like Milton Friedman say things like this famous line attributed to him: "if you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert, in fives years there'd be a shortage of sand."

    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    What's missing from this? It can't just be individual actions determine group actions.
    Individuals act. Even large corporations are made up of the actions of each of its individuals. Economists have found no other way to mathematically represent economic behavior.

    And, surely some regulations are of great benefit to society. I'm in no position to protect myself from fraud, for example.
    Standards set through free markets with regards to fraud would be of even greater benefit to society. Standards set by governments regarding a large number of regulations are quite detrimental to society. The reason for this goes back to the different types of markets identified in economics. The idea that governments should set regulations necessarily means that the regulations exist in a monopolistic market, and the idea that private entities should regulate amongst themselves necessarily means that regulations exist in a monopolistic competition market.

    Monopolistic market and monopolistic competition market are the technical names of the market types learned in ECON 101. Monopolistic markets benefit only a few at the expense of many by creating scarcity and increasing prices. Governments are this kind of market, and when you look at the sectors of economies that governments regulate, it makes sense that governments are indeed this kind of market since the sectors have much greater scarcity and higher prices than sectors in freer markets. Another element of monopolistic markets is that they aren't conducive to innovation; instead they're actively inhibiting of innovation. This means that once a monopolistic market is set, it tends to stay that way for a long, long time. This dynamic is evident in government regulation, as it should be since governments are monopolistic markets.

    Monopolistic competition markets make up the majority of other types of sectors. Electronics, plumbing, publishing, clothing, restaurants, are just a handful of examples of monopolistic competition markets. They're "monopolistic" because their goods and services are differentiated. Of the several characteristics that describe monopolistic competition, the main element that gives it the "competition" and thus distinguishes it from monopolistic exclusively is the market has low barriers to entry and exit of producers. While entry and exit is affected by several elements, the chief determinant is regulation by governments.

    The other type of market is "perfect competition." They're rare, and exist for things like wheat, where products are not differentiated. In Utopia, all goods and services would exist in perfect competition markets, but the best that modern civilization can do now (and will be able to do for probably at least a few centuries) is turn as many of its monopolistic markets into monopolistic competition markets.
  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It's more like this: one of the most foundational theories of economics -- rational choice theory -- says that aggregate social behavior results from the behavior of individual actors.

    From this emerges the reasoning that nobody has the level of expertise on your personal decisions like you do; therefore it is you who should make your decisions and bear the results. This same paradigm works at all levels, including families, businesses, and communities. Expertise and wisdom of crowds are of the utmost importance to society, but mandates and regulations dished out by a handful of bureaucrats to the enormous quantities of masses is not an effective way to engage them.

    Keep in mind that those with expertise on economics are intense proponents of free markets, and that bureaucrats do not have enough expertise to command trillions of decisions from above.
    Each individual most likely knows best what his goals are, my point is he often doesn't know how to get there. Also, I'm not convinced that setting "policies" (whether through regulations or dynamically through free markets) for each individual based on their unique preferences is better for the society as a whole than setting them with collective goals in mind. Free market may be more effective, but it doesn't ensure movement in the right direction, collectively speaking.
    Last edited by CoccoBill; 05-13-2016 at 07:58 AM.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Each individual most likely knows best what his goals are, my point is he often doesn't know how to get there. Also, I'm not convinced that setting "policies" (whether through regulations or dynamically through free markets) for each individual based on their unique preferences is better for the society as a whole than setting them with collective goals in mind. Free market may be more effective, but it doesn't ensure movement in the right direction, collectively speaking.
    Who are these angels that can ensure movement in the right direction?
  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Who are these angels that can ensure movement in the right direction?
    No one. Figuring out the right path and the correct steps to get there is science. I far trust the collective human knowledge and understanding here over individuals.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Free markets in a nutshell: individuals know better what's good for society than experts and collective wisdom.
    Free markets tap the ingenuity and expertise of societies in a far more effective and efficient way than any state ever has. It doesn't take much observation of the political system to prove this; to rise in the public sector usually has very little to do with being an expert at anything other than at gaming the political system itself.
  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    Free markets tap the ingenuity and expertise of societies in a far more effective and efficient way than any state ever has. It doesn't take much observation of the political system to prove this; to rise in the public sector usually has very little to do with being an expert at anything other than at gaming the political system itself.
    The brain exists in a pristine environment. If you were to skin your thumb right now, just nick off a bit deep enough, you would not gush out blood. It would pool because your circulatory system, which moves blood through your body, at the furthest reaches merely seeps it through openings into the blood-sponge of your hand. Outside of your arteries, you're a pool of blood. There's a distinct difference when it comes a certain organ - your brain. Blood does not leak from capillaries into the brain, there's a secure border called the Blood Brain Barrier that filters only select elements to enter the august space of brainmatter.

    In a similar way, free markets can't exist without the blood-brain barrier of the State. While they may be most efficient at their given task, they must be supported by manifold contraptions which preserve it, and chief among them is what is called the State.
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  32. #32
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    Well, that's just like, your opinion. Man.
  33. #33
    Over 10k posts in this "What is something we underappreciate" thread, and notice how every example is something that would not exist except for the efforts of free enterprise.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/c...derappreciate/
  34. #34
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    I'd really appreciate it if you walk through this more slowly.

    So the first step is saying, "People are rational actors," where rational is a fluffy filler word which bears no meaning in the sentence. If any meaning can be attributed to the word "rational" it seems to be in the legal sense of "responsible for their," as far as I can tell.

    While this is a squishy starting point, I don't disagree with the sentiment that "People do stuff and they are responsible / accountable for their own choices."


    What's the next step? If it goes straight to "people know what is best for themselves," then you lost me already. There needs to be some real clarity on these terms. How many times have you been stuck in a rut and a friend says something that you immediately think is obvious and good advice? Until that moment, you did not know what was "best for yourself." You may not have even wanted to talk to that friend.


    This isn't even getting to the point of people who are being taken advantage of by other people due to the free market influences. There is money to be made off of exploiting children to the point of unquestionable abuse. The free market gives this value, and leaves absolutely no incentive to regulate it in a manner which is both meaningful and possible. People who perpetuate the abuse will continue to do so as long as there is money to be made... which it always will, even if only in black markets (the most free of markets, I'd assume).

    What do you have to say for this brutal nature of human desire and selfishness to create a value on the creation of human suffering? How can the free markets ever possibly curtail this?
  35. #35
    I know you did not want to read a long essay, so stopped when the post was much smaller. But as I was rereading your post to make sure I addressed your points, it more than doubled in size.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'd really appreciate it if you walk through this more slowly.

    So the first step is saying, "People are rational actors," where rational is a fluffy filler word which bears no meaning in the sentence. If any meaning can be attributed to the word "rational" it seems to be in the legal sense of "responsible for their," as far as I can tell.

    While this is a squishy starting point, I don't disagree with the sentiment that "People do stuff and they are responsible / accountable for their own choices."


    What's the next step? If it goes straight to "people know what is best for themselves," then you lost me already. There needs to be some real clarity on these terms. How many times have you been stuck in a rut and a friend says something that you immediately think is obvious and good advice? Until that moment, you did not know what was "best for yourself." You may not have even wanted to talk to that friend.
    The act of being rational is the act of acting on preference; irrational would be acting against preference or randomly acting on or against preference. It is not that people know what is best for them (in the reasoned abstract sense), but that people know what they prefer (in a here and now valuation sense)*. Economics doesn't attempt to model the former but does attempt to model the latter. This is probably because modeling abstractions and thoughts and even preferences is about as impossibly hard as it gets. What economists do instead is say they can model preference indirectly by modeling consumer behavior.


    *Even a state of confusion on preference is still a preference, since at that moment, the person prefers none of the options, or rather, the option of not having chosen yet.


    This isn't even getting to the point of people who are being taken advantage of by other people due to the free market influences. There is money to be made off of exploiting children to the point of unquestionable abuse. The free market gives this value, and leaves absolutely no incentive to regulate it in a manner which is both meaningful and possible. People who perpetuate the abuse will continue to do so as long as there is money to be made... which it always will, even if only in black markets (the most free of markets, I'd assume).

    What do you have to say for this brutal nature of human desire and selfishness to create a value on the creation of human suffering? How can the free markets ever possibly curtail this?
    This is a fantastic question. Seriously. It's the kind that I need to be able to answer. Before we get to that, I should point out that black markets are not free markets; they're the antithesis of free markets. They exist because of regulations, for regulations are what push the sectors out of normal markets and into "black" markets. Even still, most black market transactions are beneficial for all parties. They include things like construction projects that skirt useless regulations. I know a ton of people who operate with elements of the black market in construction, and they do it because the zoning and building regulations in Washington state are insane. They're "you can only have this small number of sheds on your vast plot of land because some suit-and-ties at the capitol who have never even set foot in the woods or on a farm say so" level insane.

    Regarding abuse within black markets, the demand for abused goods and services (like sex slaves) exists because consumers can't get what they want in normal markets. It isn't that there is value in selling a suffering, abused sex slave, but that there is value in selling sex, and the only way to get it because of bad laws is through suffering, abused slaves.

    When it comes to the very small but still existent proportion of people who desire to consume the abuse of people (like psychopaths, murderers, rapists), they can be dealt with effectively through other means that don't involve integrating them with normal people looking for something like just sex like the laws that create black markets do.

    As for something like "forced" labor, it isn't actually forced. The examples in emerging economies are of people (sometimes children) choosing to improve the amount of pleasure in their lives by working and developing more wealth than they otherwise could. This is happening in real time by the millions. The narrative of abusive factories in China is wrong.

    As for something like actual slave labor based on something like color, it is non-competitive and couldn't exist today simply because the products of the labor would be too expensive. The incentives for slaves to work is to not be punished. This results in really low levels of productivity. Contrast to how China sweat shop laborers are very productive; it's because their incentive is to improve their wealth and net pleasures. American slavery was beginning to struggle before the Civil War and I think that if the war had never happened, all slaves would still have eventually been emancipated since enterprise was gradually making products cheaper than plantations could.



    It is basic human nature that people tend to choose to not suffer. Because the value of something is dependent on its consumption, when people have choice, they tend to choose things that provide pleasure and eschew things that provide suffering. This reduces the value of practices that cause suffering and increases the value of practices that cause pleasure. Adam Smith's most famous observation details this: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." He's saying that because people choose pleasure over suffering, producers have to provide pleasure enough that consumers will choose their services. Those that cannot, or those that dish out suffering explicitly, do not receive the consumptive choice of others, and they lose economic power that includes their own ability to consume. This is suffering to them, so their goals end up aligning with the so-called goals of society, where pleasures and positives are constructed and suffering and negatives are eschewed.

    On a philosophical note, the way free markets curtail abuses is the same way governments, communities, and individuals do; it's just a more effective way on the macro level than governments. What stops people from being abused when that person is abused? That person not wanting to be abused and other people not wanting that person from being abused. This value is not exclusively incorporated at the level of government; it remains in free markets. There is not a magic reason for how the morals held by people in societies can only be distributed from a capitol building and bureaucracies, and one can see how it is easier for individuals' morals to remain relevant when they aren't distributed from a capitol building or bureaucracies.
  36. #36
    In the third video of the OP, Yaron Brook made a comment that implied he doesn't think FDIC deposit insurance should exist. Do you believe that basic banking regulations shouldn't exist and that consumer deposits shouldn't be protected? So if a bank is mismanaged (either due to incompetence or outright corruption) and fails so completely that they cannot pay back any deposits, that the consumer is SOL and loses all of their money?
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    In the third video of the OP, Yaron Brook made a comment that implied he doesn't think FDIC deposit insurance should exist. Do you believe that basic banking regulations shouldn't exist and that consumer deposits shouldn't be protected? So if a bank is mismanaged (either due to incompetence or outright corruption) and fails so completely that they cannot pay back any deposits, that the consumer is SOL and loses all of their money?
    I agree with him. FDIC is a fantastic example of moral hazard and unintended consequences. It incentivizes risk-taking because the government mandates bailouts. This is the exact thing that constructed the subprime housing crisis. The government had several laws on the books and institutions working (Fannie and Freddie, Community Reinvestment Act, and many others) that incentivized riskier and riskier loans. The behavior of lenders and investment banks was a symptom of this.

    Banking is already intensely regulated. It is one of the most regulated industries in the world, as it was before the housing crisis and Great Recession. It does not make sense that even more regulations will somehow fix it, especially when most economists view many of its existing regulations as creating moral hazard.

    Consumers (and producers of all sorts) respond differently when regulations are different. Consumers of bank deposits won't just park their money in banks to the degree that they do now if they know they're SOL if the bank is mismanaged. In a free banking system, consumers would have far greater incentives to diversify and consume insurance, and the decentralization would greatly reduce systemic risk (risk to the whole system) caused by various things like mismanagement of a group of banks.

    Ofc the worst banking regulation of them all is the money monopoly. That's the real killer. It took the Fed until 2003 IIRC to finally admit that it created the Great Depression.
  38. #38
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    That's a fine analogy but the post I was replying to was implying that the state consists of experts and collective wisdom, which it just does not.

    I think it's reasonable to posit that free markets wouldn't function as well without the state to maintain law and order and such. That's a different argument entirely. But CoccoBill believes that the state is the only way for groups of people to cooperate and make decisions. A socialist person who understands economics still understands the great value that comes from free markets; he just believes that certain projects need to be financed through taxation which will enhance the effectiveness of the free market. He certainly doesn't believe that the profit-and-loss system just consists of individuals winging it; that there's no incentive to be an expert in this context; that expertise and knowledge wouldn't be cultivated and accumulated under these conditions.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    I think it's reasonable to posit that free markets wouldn't function as well without the state to maintain law and order and such.
    Just curious, what is that reason?

    Edit: I'm looking for something more than "to maintain law and order." I'm looking for why it's important for that to come from the state.
  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Just curious, what is that reason?

    Edit: I'm looking for something more than "to maintain law and order." I'm looking for why it's important for that to come from the state.
    The reasoning behind the belief would be something along the lines of "this is the only type of free market that has been observed to flourish." Which is true. We just don't know what a completely free society would be like because it has never happened. My point was merely that it is possible to be a socialist and be aware of basic economics at the same time, and to reconcile those two things. It's incredibly rare that this happens, but in theory it is possible to happen. I suspect if all socialists were to take some econ courses, 95% of them would reject socialist theory.
  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    But CoccoBill believes that the state is the only way for groups of people to cooperate and make decisions. A socialist person who understands economics still understands the great value that comes from free markets; he just believes that certain projects need to be financed through taxation which will enhance the effectiveness of the free market. He certainly doesn't believe that the profit-and-loss system just consists of individuals winging it; that there's no incentive to be an expert in this context; that expertise and knowledge wouldn't be cultivated and accumulated under these conditions.
    No I wouldn't say I believe that, I believe a structured and policy-based system is needed to keep greed and selfishness at manageable levels. I also don't think I'd call myself a socialist. A government is always going to have non-experts just as free markets are going to have individuals winging it, both are people with identical genetics. You're assuming profit to be the only incentive for doing anything, and that's where I disagree strongly. A lot of people become experts for entirely different reasons, but it might be most of them are women.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  42. #42
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    But there is a bureaucracy ruling over scientists and it's manned by old, successful scientists. They know science and they know how to navigate the harried waters of the unknown.
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  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    But there is a bureaucracy ruling over scientists and it's manned by old, successful scientists. They know science and they know how to navigate the harried waters of the unknown.
    I object to calling this a bureaucracy, but I do know what you're talking about. Structures and standards are natural and very important.
  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I object to calling this a bureaucracy, but I do know what you're talking about. Structures and standards are natural and very important.
    There are entire fields of science on fire right now arguing over the structure of the bureaucracy surrounding them.
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  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    There are entire fields of science on fire right now arguing over the structure of the bureaucracy surrounding them.
    What bureaucracy? What fields? What are they discussing?
  46. #46
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    The peer review process. Psychology. Why people produce apparently good but ir-reproduceable science.
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  47. #47
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    Plus there's also a discussion about pay-walled peer-review publications and the free labor of peers to review new science.
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  48. #48
    That's not bureaucracy.
  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That's not bureaucracy.
    I didn't realize a bureaucracy required gov't. Obviously there are parts of science that exist independent of gov't.

    There are also parts that don't like DARPA.
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  50. #50
    I think we were getting somewhere (especially with your latest post), but I"ll respect that and not respond.
  51. #51
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    Well the hockey finals may have affected my mood, but I can't imagine anyone else enjoying reading these, so maybe lay them to rest for a while.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  52. #52
    taxation=theft=hockey=socialism=aynrand
  53. #53
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    Now we're thinking!
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