Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post

This argument that B12 supplements and fortifications are made from cow fat, which isn't true at all. A synthetic form exists, and its this forms that's typically used in the supplements and fortifications. So, no hypocrisy here.
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...otal_synthesis
http://www.healthaliciousness.com/ar...itamin-B12.php

Love the 'gotcha' questions. Keep them coming.
Where did i ever say that the vitamin B12 comes from cow fat? Its usually extracted from cow livers where its in much higher concentrations. Its also surprising that you chose to highlight the synthetic B12 cyanocobalamin as highlighted in the first line describing the molecule in the wiki link you provided.
molecule

The core of the molecule vitamin B12 (cobalamin) is a corrin structure (depicted in red) with at its center a cobalt ion. Several vitamins exist with different cobalt ligands but the total synthesis concerned the one with a cyano ligand called cyanocobalamin.
and heres some interesting information about the form that you choose to demonstrate your point.


One of the pitfalls of pursuing a healthy diet is that we are sometimes blind to nutrients we may be missing. And in the world of healthy eating, one of the most common nutrient deficiencies involves vitamin B-12, a crucial nutrient for nerve health and the construction of red blood cells that carry oxygen throughout your body.

Vitamin B-12 deficiency is especially common among vegetarians and vegans, but it's also surprisingly common in meat eaters, too. Why? Because vitamin B-12 can only be absorbed in the small intestine, and due to common intestinal ailments, even many meat eaters who consume high levels of B-12 are unable to absorb it in their gut.

This leads to a series of seemingly "mystery" health symptoms that actually have a simple common cause: Vitamin B-12 deficiency!

Symptoms of B-12 deficiency

B-12 deficiency is shockingly widespread. Studies now show that up to 40% of the population may be deficient in vitamin B-12 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7595423.stm).

Here are some of the most common symptoms of deficiency (do you experience any of these?):

* Chest pain or shortness of breath
* Fatigue or unexplained weakness
* Dizziness, trouble with balance, and fainting
* Confusion, memory loss or dementia
* Coldness, numbness or tingling in the hands and feet
* Slow reflexes or diminished nervous system function
* Pale skin or yellowing of the skin
* Sore mouth and tongue

... in addition, vitamin B-12 deficiency can actually cause brain shrinkage, according to a University of Oxford study (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7595423.stm). Although more work needs to be done, research is already suggesting a link between vitamin B-12 deficiency and Alzheimer's.

If you (or someone you know) shows any of the symptoms listed above, I urge you to immediately investigate vitamin B-12 and determine if a deficiency in this nutrient may be causing your symptoms!

Again, vitamin B-12 deficiency is especially common in vegans and vegetarians because typical vitamin B-12 sources (meats, yogurt, etc.) are simply not present in their diets. But even meat eaters can be deficient in B-12 due to poor digestion. This is especially true for older people who suffer a diminished ability to absorb nutrients in their small intestine.

In addition, diabetes medications and even pain pills can interfere with B-12 absorption, and intestinal parasites can also strongly block its absorption in the gut.

Solutions for vitamin B-12

Traditionally, people who are deficient in vitamin B-12 have received injections of B-12. This is extremely effective because it bypasses the digestive tract and goes right into the bloodstream. But it has one obvious downside: It requires being injected! So most people aren't interested in this method.

Instead, most people supplement their vitamin B-12 using nutritional supplements. But here's where this can go wrong: The most commonly available form of vitamin B-12 on the market is the cheap synthetic form that's actually bound to a cyanide molecule (yes, cyanide, the poison). It's called cyanocobalamin, and you'll find it in all the cheap vitamins made by pharmaceutical companies and sold at grocery stores and big box stores.

Action item: If you have any vitamin B-12 supplements, check the ingredients label right now to see what form of vitamin B-12 they contain. If they contain cyanocobalamin, throw them out!

Cyanocobalamin is a cheap, synthetic chemical made in a laboratory. It's virtually impossible for you to find this form in nature. Low-end vitamin manufacturers use it because it can be bought in bulk and added to products with claims that they "contain vitamin B-12!" What they don't tell you is that the vitamin is bound to a toxic, poisonous cyanide molecule that must then be removed from your body by your liver. Cyanocobalamin is also up to 100 times cheaper than the higher quality methylcobalamin which we'll talk about below.

As Wikipedia explains: "A common synthetic form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements, and as a food additive, because of its lower cost. In the body it is converted to the physiological forms, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, leaving behind the cyanide..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12)

Removing the cyanide molecule from the vitamin and then flushing it out of your body requires using up so-called "methyl groups" of molecules in your body that are needed to fight things like homocysteine (high levels cause heart disease). By taking low-quality cyanobalamin, you're actually stealing methyl groups from your body and making it do more work at the biochemical level. This uses up substances such as glutathione that are often in short supply anyway, potentially worsening your overall health situation rather than helping it. This is one of the reasons why low-grade vitamins may actually be worse for your body than taking nothing at all!

Cyanocobalamin, in summary, is a low-grade, low-quality and slightly toxic (cyanide) form of vitamin B-12 that's used by all the cheap vitamin manufacturers. I recommend avoiding it completely. It won't kill you to take it, of course, but there's a better solution for B-12.

The better choice: Methylcobalamin

The proper form of vitamin B-12 to supplement is called methylcobalamin. This is the form that exists in nature, and it is pre-methylated, meaning it's ready for your biochemistry to put to immediate use. Methylcobalamin has several key advantages over cyanocobalamin:

* Increased absorption
* Better retention in tissues
* Contains no toxic cyanide
* Supports production of SAMe

As explained by Ed Sharpe:

"The coenzyme form of vitamin B12 is known as methylcobalamin or methyl B12. It's the only form of vitamin B12 which can directly participate in homocysteine metabolism. In addition, converting homocysteine to methionine via methyl B12 generates an increased supply of SAMe (S-adenosyl methionine), the body's most important methyl donor." (http://www.health101.org/art_methylcobalamin.htm)

Every informed nutritionist knows that methylcobalamin is far superior to cyanocobalamin. That's why companies like Ola Loa (www.DrinkYourVitamins.com) use only the high-end "methyl" form of B-12.

As you can see the cheap form of the synthetic form results in you having to excrete cyanide caused by the body breaking it down and converting it into a usable form and that conversion then leaves you deficient in other methyl groups which results in being in worse position health wise than not taking the synthetic B12 in the first place.




Yes, I do. Here's why:

Women have a higher incidence of osteoporosis. Source: http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-statistics

As a woman, I have been told by physicians, by articles, by the media etc. that milk and yogurt and cheese are the way to go to prevent osteoporosis. I have been told that is what I need to do to build strong bones in my future children. More calcium has been championed as the solution by many.

Men may not have been given that message, but understand that this is the message women are getting and why I think it is important to think about this one factor. When one factor is acclaimed and highlighted as the silver bullet to preventing a chronic disease, like calcium has toward women, then the claims should be evaluated and given a second thought.
but you aren't giving it a second thought . You are going from an ethical standpoint that you hold and taking fact A and fact B and saying that because of fact B fact A is wrong. You are completely ignoring all of the other factors that can effect whether fact A will work or not. You want calcium from milk products to be THE solution. Or should i say , you don't want it to be THE solution because of your own personal lifestyle beliefs and the truth is that Calcium from milk products should be PART of THE solution.
You also need to ensure that you have adequate vitamin D either from diet or sunshine exposure so that you can regulate your calcium absorbtion and bone deposition properly . If you don't you will lessen the efectiveness of the supplemental calcium.

Similarly , if you have a sedentary lifestyle why will extra calcium have any effect, As Jyms explained above you need to exercise to promote the deposition of calcium into the bones to strengthen them,otherwise you eat the extra calcium and your bdy looks at it and says we've got enough to satisfy our current needs thanks and you flush it down the loo instead.

ALso if you suffer from crohn/coeliac /other diseases which affect your ability to absorb the calcium you need to sort out those so that you can absorb the calcium in your diet.

I acknowledge that many things can contribute to osteoporosis, and it's not just a calcium deficiency. With that said, is more calcium the solution, when so many things can contribute? Is it the best solution, or the only solution? Those are the only questions that I am asking, and what I want others to at least consider.
No , i gave all those extra solutions earlier , you just persist in asking whether taking calcium in milk is the THE solution and refuse to admit that it is part of the solution because of your vegan lifestyle.Taking the extra calcium is part of the solution ,changing your environment is also part of the solution, whether thats by reducing household contributors that may cause asthma, ensuring that you get sufficient exercise, modifying the other parts of diet that may cause gut absorbtion problems.
Minimise the causes of osteoporosis and use the sources of calcium as a whole approach to treating the problem rather than hoping for your magic one shot cure all.

Quote Originally Posted by "MMM
Also, you must be single, Keith, or you would know that I'm the one person in the world she doesn't listen to.
Fraid not , married and totally used to the women's irrationality .