Wonderland's OP (at last): TEN NL --- Move up and STAY UP

fish avatars are, for me, almost as good as HUD sometimes! lol.

Lockpull? what that?

Yeah that's me on my bikey going around Mallory Park. Took that corner at around 90mph, sometimes knee to the ground, sometimes not.

there I was thinking the bike had stalled and you were falling ever so slowly off sideways , cursing your bad luck and wondering why you can't beat all the other racers

Yeah that's me on my bikey going around Mallory Park. Took that corner at around 90mph, sometimes knee to the ground, sometimes not..

at least it wasn't bum on the track round the corners

yeah but there's a difference between going round a corner and going round a corner @ 90, there aren't that many circuits in europe with such corners! twas a specific boast.

There were a few offs that day in my group though.

So had a quick session tonight and got half a buy-in then lost it to one bad beat ish kinda hand and one stupid bluff. NEED TO STOP BLUFFING!! I had KJs and the flop comes down Q9X my suit on 2 of them. Full 6 players on the flop in a 3x raised pot. Call a .20c bet to get to the river... nothing, i figure they've hit fuck all, so i bet .75c and get one fold. By now there's like $3.5 in the pot, so i decided to bet less than half the pot coz it should be profitable a good % of the time. Fucker calls with Q no kicker.

Also, i was in some SICK spots where i just HAD to call and each time i fucking KNEW what they had. So i'm going to have to start making some sick lay downs. Thing is, i'm developing a keen sense for when they have it, just like... the speed in which they bet, the amount, my subconscious just seems to know what it means.

So i ended my session coz i just couldn't feel any bad players after that. They weren't 'good' either but people were starting to fold, 3bet etc. so i put it down.

A massive part of poker is damage limitation management. There's a whole array of factors which, when added up, constitute a significantly increased win rate. And it's all about folding.

One tip i have is like, say you have KK and have been waiting for it, get all excited, raise, get one caller, fuckin ace WILL hit the flop (think this has happened 9/10 times for me in the last week, and also, they have the bastard ace 9/10 times coz people call with ANY ace) you know when they have it, so just fold to aggression and immediately focus on something else (like the next table) like you just threw away J4o. Just bin it. Once you're beat, those cards are as good as blank sheets of paper, so throw them away like they are.

later folks.

Woah that's pretty sick. I wish I wasn't such a pansy cuz that bike thing looks like fun

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Woah that's pretty sick. I wish I wasn't such a pansy cuz that bike thing looks like fun

+1

sooo, wondering if i played this hand ok. At first i was like, shit, i was way behind here, but now i think i did ok actually... *scratches head*

http://weaktight.com/1110370


DocRon001 = 75/25 over 4 hands (wotev)
SNOWHAND0 = 80/0 over 5 hands (again... wotev)

See i'm not exactly going to raise JKs OOP with 3 limpers. He shouldn't have called the bet or raise on the flop with 2nd pair no kicker. I was pondering calling the turn but when i saw the pot odds i thought, hmm, nice.

What say you?

I would fold the turn and raise the river

Untick the option to show results. Turn is probably a fold, river is close. If you raise its to raise/fold, so dont raise unless you're prepared to fold.

PF I just call like you did. I found a leak in my game was isolating decent hand OOP against multiple limpers. You just end up with a multiway flop OOP with medium str hands causing yourself problems.

Definitely raise the river here, you are missing so much value out of worse K's that didn't two pair and worse Q's that may or may not have two paired.

yeeeah. Missed value. I was just concerned, i was putting KQ in their range but then wondered if they'd have raised with that. Some people do limp with AK at these levels.

Then when the heart hit i got scared and was just praying they'd bet small. Not saying this is correct but i am sharing my thought process for evauation purposes. If i did raise here it would be a min raise coz he aint calling big with that scary heart on the river.

I found a leak in my game was isolating decent hand OOP against multiple limpers. You just end up with a multiway flop OOP with medium str hands causing yourself problems.

Could you elaborate here? what do you mean by decent hand, as in you have a decent hand and you try to isolate but end up getting called by a few, so your hand loses equity?

I mean decent, but not great. Something like QJ or A9, stuff like that. I raise in the blinds after 2 or more limpers and see a 3 way flop which I miss most of the time v's people who wont fold any part of the board. You can check it out in your HEM filters. When I did I was a pretty decent loser in hands where I raised behind 2+ limpers.

yeah, especially against loose players. Thing is, we think: ah, we're ahead of their range. But we're also getting called by (often) more than one of those limpers, thus slicing out equity into a smaller piece.

I guess it's the thing of tightening up again. Fold or check. Then make a conscious note that you're playing a multi-way limped pot and not to get married to the flop/board without damn good reason.

gaaaah. Monster tilt hangover.

just had such a swingy sesh. Got a 1.5 buy-ins in 45 mins, possibly my biggest win at 10, then lost every fucking penny.

HUGE tilt.

These little fucking short stack bastards keep 3betting me. What am i gonna do!? one cunt 3bet me with Q70 when i had TT, so i shoved... hit a queen on the turn. Bla bla equity.

Another cunt calls my AK with 79s and hits a gut shot on the flop, calls a large bet, hits his gutshot on the turn, all in, bam. Took the last of my day's winnings.

A lot of sharks playing too, fucking 3betting is the new calling @ 10nl these days. Check raising is the new betting.

So, motivation is flagging again. Each step at this stage means an awful lot. My win rate is SHIT too. Who the fuck gets just under 5PTBB/100 @ 10nl?!

One good thing though was that i found a new style or at least a way to stop donating to fish. I tighten up all round, throw away anything that can get me into trouble. AJ UTG, and i've also sorta stopped blind steeling coz i'm getting a) 3bet light b) 3bet shoved or c) they're calling with any ace or just generally hitting the flop vs my medium strength steeling range.

I've had to stop being agro, check/call with my draws multiway because again, i keep bleeding chips by betting my draws. Every now and then i will bet my draws but i've had to cut back on it.

I'm just generally staying out of trouble, and if there are fish around, they aren't noticing and are still calling with crap rather than realising my range is tighter.

Another very unprofessional thing i'm going to start doing is stop playing when i'm ahead and having a good session. To date i literally can't remember ever going "wow, i'm up... i should keep playing while things are good!" and then continuing to profit. If i'm lucky i'll keep my winnings but often i go downhill.

No idea how i'm gonna survive higher stakes.

You must pick good spots to steal blinds. Avoid stealing blinds from shortstacks. I actually avoid shortstacks altogether. Once I started avoiding them, my 10NL game went back on track.

post the AK hand?

Have you considered that maybe you're a victim of fancy play syndrome? You're getting frustrated about getting 3 bet or 3 bet light. I play @ $10NL and to date have NEVER worried about my 3 bet % or 3 betting light or getting 3 bet light or anything with the words "3 bet" in it. Those are all advanced concepts that I believe only start to creep into our thought process at the mid-stakes when the competition is much better and you're short handed and you're sitting with deeper stacks. If you have 100BB or less and someone 3 bets you @ $10 NL, shove it if you have AA or KK. Outside of that, don't get caught up in the x bet game - just call or put your raise in and be done with it. That whole concept was born solely because it was tougher to get paid off through conventional means. You don't have to delve very deep to get paid by players at these stakes at this point in time.

"But, Jason, if I 3bet shove with just AA and KK, I'm not balancing my range and villains will exploit me." Good. Most of the time you SHOULD be playing in an exploitable way until villains prove they can exploit you. Don't assume they can or will. Don't get fancy until something specific and actionable dictates you should.

Focus on solid poker fundamentals and improving your reads and putting opponents on hands by showdown and you should develop into a winner @ these stakes. Eliminate "3 bet" from your vocabulary. Only try to steal from tight blinds that don't defend - not 75% VPIP maniacs. Don't worry about short term results and don't worry about protecting a win. Don't look ahead to how you will do @ high stakes. Just be happy you're a winning player @ any stakes.

Good luck.

Hey Jason,

no, i did USED to get into fancy play... ah, i'll two barrel bluff here. But just a couple of days ago i stopped and tonight, built up the 1.5 buy ins through VERY straightforward tight play.

Like you say, eff blind stealing, eff bluffing really. I hold folding now most highly, if i can have the sense to. My reads are getting awesome, i just fuckin know when i'm beat so much of the time. It's just some really tricky situations where i get fucked. I'm sort of given odds to call and then i sort of hit and i had no idea he'd call with such crap and it better etc.

here is that AK hand. Villain 42/0 over 19 hands. I just called that river bet almost out of fun, i shoved pretty much because that's the course of action i was going to take. In terms of HIS effective stack, i decided that the turn bet would have had me pot committed coz like $2 was half his stack. I guess i should have shoved but i actually wanted him to call. I saw that flop as dry as fuuck.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG zanetti69 ($3.65)
CO Hero ($8.70)
BTN 13467910 ($9.75)
SB gorbatij ($5.95)
BB leds69 ($5.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is CO
zanetti69 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, leds69 calls $0.30, zanetti69 calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25, 3 players)
leds69 checks, zanetti69 checks, Hero bets $0.80, leds69 calls $0.80, zanetti69 folds

Turn: ($2.85, 2 players)
leds69 checks, Hero bets $1.90, leds69 raises to $3.80, Hero calls $1.90

River: ($10.45, 2 players)
leds69 goes all-in $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Final Pot: $10.85
Hero shows:
leds69 shows:

leds69 wins $10.35 ( won +$5.15 )
zanetti69 lost -$0.40
Hero lost -$5.20

hey Wonderland I was sitting to your left at 1 table yesterday for about 50 hands (tiny sample size) - the stats I have on you are something like 23/8/0.8

You limped in on a lot of pots and there were a few spots where you had position and should have been raising it up rather than limping in. It seemed like you were generally pretty passive in the hands you played.

ah hey there. Should have said hello.

that is a strange stat, but no unlike me @ certain tables. I was varying stats a lot in differing tables but sometimes i do get a run of limping spots.

But also of late i've been getting called/3bet and destroyed so much i have developed a hesitancy for opening in certain spots.

You have to understand that you diminish your post-flop fold equity by limping. Don't open limp any hands.

running like a cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunt of late.

some amusing hands from tonight's land of improbably losses...

http://weaktight.com/1117450

http://weaktight.com/1117451

http://weaktight.com/1117452

http://weaktight.com/1117454

These hands aren't for game theory, just anecdotal, so i left the results up on purpose. Baaad cards time.

explain thought processes on all streets in 2 - 3. i dont wanna hear BUT WAHHHHHHHHHHHH I AM ON A DONWSWING SO wxyz. swings are irrelevant sir, if a play is +EV, its always +EV regardless of how we are "running". if another play is more +EV, its always more +EV.

AA i'm thinking, fuck, flush, bet anyway. Fuck, he called and fuck, another club. but it's checked so maybe he's scared of it too? river, i'm just wanting value at that stage from weaker hands. Inretrospect i was a bit wedded to the aces. What would other people do here, check them down?

QQ i just thought: ah, fuckers have hit two pair or a set easy, or have semi slow played AA or something. More likely i just thought, fuck it, if i call here i'm probably stacking off with the non short stack. I always figure i'm behind here against two shove-happy fish who have called with bullshit and hit. So i got the hell out. I mean god, could we have put them AT ALL on what they actually had???

Guy in the AK hand had an OESD not a gutshot, he definately had odds to call your flop bet there.

so he has approx 30% chance of hitting. About 4.5:1 and i'm giving him LESS than 2:1??

Originally Posted by wonderland

so he has approx 30% chance of hitting. About 4.5:1 and i'm giving him LESS than 2:1??

It's called implied odds. He has 8 outs, so approx 32% chance of hitting. If he sees only 1 card he is approx 4:1 against hitting. On the flop he is getting pot odds of 2.5:1. This means he needs to only make up 1.5 units of the bet you made to BE in the long run if he hits on the turn. In other words, he only needs to make up $1.20 when he hits.

If you have a hand that checks through the turn, then he is getting better immediate pot odds than he needs to make the call. He's getting 2.5:1, and only needs 2:1. So... he didn't play it that bad, other than preflop.

stacks, dude, you were the first person to introduce me to implied odds, so i know the score to some degree there

i think it's a bit academic tho coz any idiot that calls with 79s and with his stats... i mean is anyone here gonna put that in their range?? plus.. implied odds take a certain amount of speculation. WILL we take any more money if the card hits. Maybe in this case if he put me on a good ace, he'd know that if his card hits, the board looks totally innocent. Weird straight draws are very hard to spot, so fine, but i just don't give this guy credit for thinking like that.

So what AM i supposed to do in that spot??

If you were offered an OESD with those odds and those stack sizes and you folded then you should quit poker, especially if its hidden like that.

As for what you're supposed to do, realise that sometimes you get stacked while playing correctly.

oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god

http://weaktight.com/1123454

oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god

Haven't shown profit in 3 days... missing everything possible... then i get this hand. Put him squarely on KK/QQ/AK. So knew he'd call when i shoved. Just KNEW he was checking with strenght there.

More symptoms of running bad:

- hardly getting cards, it's like i'm not playing poker, it's like someone's handing me bits of toilet paper with phone numbers and half written songs on them... eh... how does THIS connect with the board?

- then i do get cards... but hardly ever connect... eh... it's like someone's replaced the community cards with tufts of grass... how the hell am i supposed to connect with that???

- Hit well, no one is folding to my bets. They hit turn and river nicely.

- Hit fucking well... but hey, that's fine coz they hit better.

- Hit TERMINALLY well... but everyone folds.

- Miss and bluff a VERY bluffable board but get called with bottom pair.

- Every amazing straight flush draw i have is left totally uncompleted and pot fattening is just called off with air.

BR: $310
Motivation: 0

I genuinely hate poker right now, i've had about one or two single session heaters in the past 6 or 7 weeks of play, all the rest has been bullshit breakeven weird bad luck. Relentlessly so. I feel ill every time i sit down to play, then relax a little, then get DESTROYED by every bad unskilled player out there.

These stakes are such bullshit, you're grinding with idiots and not even getting rakeback or showing anything other than piss loose change at the end of even a good month (which i've yet to experience btw).

Fuck it.

Can understand how you feel, I'm up and down all over the place. check out my graph in my op and the hands I ran into. Last night I kept running into slow sets, night before it was slow played aces. I mean limp calling 4 streets and showing no aggression at all even when they hit a set. I'm trying to slow up a bit with top pair/overpair type hands now.

although the moneywas going all in anyway, you played the AA pretty bad.

wow keith. Swingy indeed. I'm only a few bucks up on you myself since the start of the month/10nl. I'm up like $40 ish.

Dude, i would give up such hands on the button. I WAS doing that, not i fold a lot of hands on the button because you're getting called with anything and looking at top pair and going: a-ha, thin value... perhaps thick... is very marginal swingy territory. I'm saying this like i know my shit or anything, i'm saying it as one recent 10nl grinder to another, it's what i've discovered.

Keith... think we should sweat eachother, combine forces, what say you?

Muzzard... i had the guy on a certain range, who the FUK calls a 3bet with JT? i had him on high pocket pairs or AK and knew he was gonna call my shove with worse. If you're gonna say i played it bad, at least throw in your two cents.

the minute you stop blaming every single loss, whether it be a stack or someone calling your cbet when you have air, on negative variance or running bad, is the minute you can start becoming a better poker player.

^^^ +1

u obviously didnt have him ok AK or high PP or why would u check this flop? You mind frame was omg top set, check. O crap few draws, I best shove. if you had him on AK/QQ/KK he would get his money in on this flop.

Its pretty unllikely he has AK as there are only 4 combos left and 3 of KK. I would assume he also 4bets KK a fairly large % of the time preflop.

Pre I woudl make it $2 as I'm oop post flop, I would best flop a good% of the time and get it in ldo. If I check flop coz I think his range is weak and he calls alot of 3bets IP I may check flop sometimes and vbet turn 2.35-2.50 and obv call a shove. If he just calls I'd shove most if not all rivers.

Its a pretty dumb spot just to shove 3xpot imo, thats all.

FUCKIN YEEEEEEEEEEEHAWWW.

*gasp*

So i decided to fuk ten off for the night and, while the clock struck 9pm ish (9 for uk, 10 for europe) unleashing all the wonder-fish into the stars lobby, take up my fish fight with 5nl. There i sat with a pistol in each hand and shot them in their little fucking barrel.

NOT ONLY DID I CLEAR MY 1.75 BUY IN PISSER BUT I FINISHED A COUPLE OF BUCKS IN PROFIT!!!

Took almost 4 buy-ins.

I was super agro, either betting full pot, more, or not at all. Often regardless of whether i hit or not. Sometimes multi way. One guy just got sick of me having it and i took his stack, as he doubted me that time. Stacked another loser when i hit top set on the flop, bet full, call, bet more than full, call, hit my full house on the river, all in. He pondered, then called... AJ with a paired J ???

Man it feels GOOOOD to take back some power and control of my destiny. I think i'm just a little timid at 10. I think one has to be a bully, like full on spenda mode. Bet first, ask questions later. See, i found such good spots where i'd say: fuck it, i have a piece of that board, bet... call... ah look, i just made two pair... all in you say?

I ran 24.51/15.81 AF 4.06 -- over 759 hands 24.70 BB/100 -- total profit = $18.75

BR = $323.79 ( must have been down lower than i guessed the last time i posted the current bank roll @ about 310)

Beautiful.

This is fast becoming the kind of thread people will stop responding to soon. Get your head right or take a break. Running bad is rarely just variance.

Originally Posted by sil693

the minute you stop blaming every single loss, whether it be a stack or someone calling your cbet when you have air, on negative variance or running bad, is the minute you can start becoming a better poker player.

^^^ +1

oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god

THIS!!!!!!

oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god
oooh my god

Let me guess.. You are playing amazingly both times, at 10nl and 5nl. However, at 10nl you are just running like total shit, but at 5nl you didn't run quite as bad, and that's how you were able to win right?

It gets really old telling you that you aren't that great and to quite blaming your losses on only variance, and to start being more critical of your play. Your sporadic changes in attitude about how well you are playing, and how bad you are running, etc is starting to become a rather large joke among a few people. Seriously, accept that you are not playing perfect, then accept that there are going to be times when you can't do anything about losing money. While your at it learn to accept that when you win, it does NOT mean you are playing good, and when you lose, it does NOT mean you are playing bad.

Yes you got your money in with top set, when only one hand beat you. Congratulations. Does that mean you played the hand correctly? NO. You should have bet and got the money in on the flop. Did villain play his hand terribly? Not really. He called a 3bet IP with a hand that is going to flop well a good amount of the time (whether it's TP/2pr/draws). He outflopped the shit out of you, and where he should have bet the flop and got it in, he didn't play it terrible. Get over it.

You posting advice about how to beat 2nl/5nl, and then bitching and moaning about your terrible luck at 10nl against players who absolutely pale in comparison to your skill level, is fucking retarded. As BJ said, get your head right, throw the ego out of the window, and learn poker, and learn to deal with the swings, or get out of the game.

Tilt control is a beautiful thing my friend. I wish I could be here over the summer to help you out with it and shit, but since I won't be, you best have your shit straightened up by the time I get back.

Basically just reiterating what everyone has said, don't think you are playing good when you win, don't think you are playing bad when you lose. I have had multiple winning sessions where I was irritated by my play because I know I could have played better and multiple losing sessions where I can't be upset because I played well and got unlucky.

If you SERIOUSLY want to make a living at this game, check the ego at the door. Man up and fucking admit you suck at poker. I admit it all the time. My friends irl ask me how I'm doing playing poker, and I'll tell them and they flip out and like, "You have $1k online?!?! You think you're pretty good then, eh?" I'll just flat out say, No, I still got a shit ton to work on. I won't consider myself even halfway decent until I'm withdrawing money to pay for bills and stuff regularly. Even then I won't think I'm "good." Once you think you are "good enough" you get content. When you get content, you get lazy about learning new things, reviewing sessions, etc. That is cancer for a poker player. Stay hungry, always be eager to learn more.

Get your head on straight and crush the fish like I know you can. Improve every day. All that stuff. I expect YOU to be teaching ME stuff by the time I get back.

GL

man forget about single session resutls, they are clearly getting to your head.

you don't even know what running bad is, I doubt you've played anywhere near 100,000 hands even. 60/40 edges aren't that extreme, prepare to lose often.

ah poker telling offs.

I am unrestrained on this blog, you must know i'm using this blog as catharsis, i don't think "oh i can't say that" it's my blog and it's my process and it's mainly for me, even if JUST for venting and journaling. So this is me at my least disciplined. On the forum, of late, i've bitten my tongue a lot and held it back. No one HAS to check in here and i wasn't even going to make an op but for requests based on, probably, my entertaining vents!

So there's a bit of drama and all that thrown in which gets a little unhealthy. But it's literally, at that time when everything is going shit, all i can think of is getting it out of my system on here.

THAT SAID....

What's funny is that when i run bad, and i know i'm running bad and what it looks like, everyone says i'm not running bad, stop saying so, i just suck at poker... when i'm NOT losing and showing profit, people say i'm just running good.

I'm just inexperienced, so i can't just trust that i'm gonna come out on top, i only have about 37k hands under my belt, so i hope the elders can forgive.

HOWEVER...

I am aware of how manic depressive bi-polar i seem in my posts and how i can't deal with the swings and how predictable that is. It's like: OMG i'm UP! OMG i'm DOWN! and so on... and it's like: well yes, this IS poker. But one invests SOOO much into poker, to see the money piss away to idiots is actual pain.

I sincerely wish i could stop it but there's no hope other than to realise that i'm a proper winning player one day after like 100k hands. Until then i'm going to doubt myself after every breakeven stretch.

Thanks for the encouragement Dranger, damn you for effing off to join the killing squad!

Keith, sweat.

Originally Posted by wonderland

i only have about 37k hands under my belt

Originally Posted by wonderland

What's funny is that when i run bad, and i know i'm running bad and what it looks like

well you have obviously just alternated between running really really bad and running good in those 37k hands more than I have in ~350k.

Noones telling you not to post this stuff in your op, what we're saying is that if what you're posting is whats going on in your head, then you're putting yourself into a bad place for trying to be a winning player. If you've read through my op you'll see I also struggle with letting my results rule my emotions at times (and it has a bad effect on me, and I dont think it affects me as much as you).

Thats worth repeating so it sinks in. The posts telling you to stop the negative posts arent telling you to stop whinging/venting/whatever, they're letting you know that unless you can control your emotions better, being a long term winner at poker will be unlikely.

To add to bjsaust's post, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Visualization

And understand that the reverse is doubly true.

I need EXTRA poker psychology help. Reading the poker mindset is like a drop in the ocean really. I think it's hardly going to affect my game, maybe i need some Tony Robbins hardcore shit.

So the reverse is true? meaning pouring negative mental focus/visualisation onto one's game?

I am familiar with such concepts. But making it happen is another thing. It has nothing to do with poker and everything to do with what i expect from it and how i view it in my life. Every buy-in gets me closer to a lifestyle i've dreamed of for a long time, every suckout and bad play by another fish feels, in that moment, like they're robbing me of it. Even though i know that in the long run, such plays will be paying me off.

This thread is to see me get through the gates of ten. Once through (almost there) i'll start a new OP which sees me go into the womb of ten and up to the shores of 25. That blog should be almost entirely built around psychology. So it will be about the anger and the frustration and how i'm dealing with it. Coz it's the biggest leak i have.

STARTED THIS WITH SOME BLOGGING, BUT THERE ARE QUESTIONS BELOW FOR THE MID STAKERS IF YOU WANT TO SKIP AHEAD...

Ah, that were cool. Just got sweated by Keith_MM and won a little over a buy-in. I always do ok when i'm sweated, he says the same.

BR: $335

Only a few more buy-ins until i reach my mid 300s goal.

Been reading Robb's 'Operation: Winning is a Habbit' Blog. Following the links there and making notes. Some real gold in there, not just about technique but attitude. See the parts about 'Poker is a whore' and the one about poker being like fight club.

His explanation of how poker is designed so that people win AND lose but the skilled players can earn. The fish win just about enough to keep them coming back and we lose just enough to them to mean that we stay in healthy profit WHILE they take our money.

Made me realise that... poker isn't free money. It's a 60% win rate, 40% loss rate and what that relates to is business. You pay your 40% wholesale price and sell it on at a marked up price. So when we lose when we're ahead, it's just the admin fee for our career, it's just the cost price of the merchandise.

Poker is a very serious game. I love the poker world but at the moment, poker... (just realised) ... yes poker IS a whore... it's like that girlfriend you have who's too hot for you and you lay awake at night wondering where she is and who she's with, yet you don't dump her. So anyway, i was saying, at the moment i have that love/hate relationship with it. Once i fully learn that i'm taking that 60% i'll be more content to lose the 40%.

QUESTIONS TO THE MID STAKERS (50nl+):

1. How do your emotions get affected by winning? Large pot, session etc. Like short time frame.
2. When losing do you realise you're supposed to 40% of the time and just shrug it off?
3. Do you look forward to playing poker or do it kind of robotically or automatically?
4. hehe... what's the worst thing you've done on tilt!? (maybe you don't want to share that with the community so you don't have to answer that).

I'm not a midstakes player yet, but fuck it, ill answer the questions lol.

1.) I feel stoked by winning not going to lie. You should be happy when you win, thats PART OF THE GAME. You don't have to be a fucking emotionless robot ALL the time imo.

2.) I typically don't really think about it if I lose a pot/have a losing session if I feel I played well. However, tilt does creep in from time to time, and I spew, which I get pissed about because I should have better control over my emotions. Just learn to shrug it off over time.

3.) I typically look forward to playing, although there are times when I set myself a "hand number" goal, so I HAVE to play, and I do so robotically obviously if I'm not in the mood. I think its good practice to play when you REALLY don't feel like it at the time. That is, if you plan on playing poker for a job or something. Everyone has those days at work where you just don't feel like being there, I'm sure poker is the same.

4.) When I first started my first blog, I built my roll to $40. One night, went on super tilt (lol) and took most of my roll to 25nl. Lost it all but $5. Built it back up from there. So there, a huge lose, and a big win all in one answer. :P

Originally Posted by wonderland

QUESTIONS TO THE MID STAKERS (50nl+):

1. How do your emotions get affected by winning? Large pot, session etc. Like short time frame.
2. When losing do you realise you're supposed to 40% of the time and just shrug it off?
3. Do you look forward to playing poker or do it kind of robotically or automatically?
4. hehe... what's the worst thing you've done on tilt!? (maybe you don't want to share that with the community so you don't have to answer that).

1. If I feel I played well I'm happy. If I feel like I played bad I'm often pretty indifferent (which more than likely isn't a good thing). If I feel like I didn't play particularly well or bad but still had a really good session because I hit so many big hands and kept getting paid, I tend to feel a little "guilty". As in, I feel like I've done better than I should have.

2. Take the good times with the bad imo. I try to shrug it off, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't I try not to play until it doesn't bother me anymore.

3. Sometimes one, sometimes the other.

4. Carried on playing:

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Enkyl.pkr ($50.95)
UTG+1 cee23 ($50.00)
MP1 punki_nav ($48.55)
MP2 cpb_opm ($51.80)
MP3 helios25 ($56.00)
CO Hero ($62.70)
BTN Mozart99999 ($49.25)
SB APESTOSO ($49.50)
BB Yurius79 ($50.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is CO
3 folds, cpb_opm calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.50, 2 folds, Yurius79 calls $2, cpb_opm raises to $6, Hero calls $3.50, Yurius79 calls $3.50

Flop: ($18.25, 3 players)
Yurius79 checks, cpb_opm bets $10, Hero calls $10, Yurius79 folds

Turn: ($38.25, 2 players)
cpb_opm goes all-in $35.80, Hero calls $35.80

River: ($109.85, 2 players)

Final Pot: $109.85
Hero shows:
cpb_opm shows:

cpb_opm wins $106.85 ( won +$55.05 )
Hero lost -$51.80
Yurius79 lost -$6

Well, technically 50-200nl would still be called smallstakes, but to answer:

1. I become more likely to book a win. It feels like I've played a lot of sessions where I get up nicely early but over time gradually drop back, or just plain take a cooler. I probably become choosier with my table selection also. Unless I have a real good target, I might leave a table just because I'm deep with another player and dont want to risk it. I dont think it affects the way I play a lot, but it affects my approach to other issues.

2. Depends on my state of mind. This is one time when running good affects me negatively. If I've hit a string of nut hands in recent sessions, then I become convinced I just need to hang in there till my inevitable big hand comes to get me back in it. If I'm in a bad mindset though, this can easily result in spew while I chase that big hand. In a good state of mind though it doesnt matter. I just lost AA < Q8o ai pf and was happy about it. Rather than get upset about the beat, I'm happy about playing on a table with this guy. In a session point of view if I'm running bad and in a good state of mind I can usually spot the right time to just quit. One example of why I really think mindset is SO important. Not surprisingly my worst sessions are bad sessions that I turned into horrible ones due to my state of mind.

3. I still look foward to it. There are times though that I play only because I have time to. If I havnt got a lot of hands in and have some spare time I play regardless of mindset. I'm working to stop that now. Better to not play than to play badly. This month so far has been my best month ever and yet I've played by far the least hands I ever have in a month where I'm committed to playing.

4. I've taken shots at stakes above my BRM occassionally. Usually the worst thing I do is start stacking off with small-med PPs pf. Thats a pretty good sign I'm entering monkey tilt stage. I'd probably gone 6 months without doing it, then stacked off with 33 a week ago in what turned into my biggest losing session ever. Definately tilted that session.

Originally Posted by wonderland

[Just got sweated by Keith_MM and won a little over a buy-in. I always do ok when i'm sweated, he says the same.

The mere act of explaining (or needing to explain) your moves, often slows you down and gets you thinking more. One of Spenda's pieces of advice is to play only 1-2 tables and talk out loud about everything you do, basically explaining to yourself or your invisible friend what you're doing why. Something myself and others have found useful is to record our sessions while we explain our play, even if its only to be watched by ourselves afterwards. Getting into the habit of slowing down and really thinking can make a big difference.

1. How do your emotions get affected by winning? Large pot, session etc. Like short time frame.

It depends. If I've been on a bit of a downswing, or been playing badly, I'm like bjsaust and am more likely to book a win just so I can visually see me making progress back to being in the green. If that isn't the case, and I'm been consistently winning, then nothing really changes.. I just play till I'm tired, and likely don't even look to see how much I'm up/down.

2. When losing do you realise you're supposed to 40% of the time and just shrug it off?

You HAVE to realize you are going to lose the % of the time your destined to lose. If you expect that everytime you get it in good that you will win, then you are setting yourself up for incredible disappointment. Unless you have villain drawing absolutely dead, you shouldn't consider the money yours yet. You should just say "I played it correctly. Money went in good. GG ME", and let the money fall where it falls this time.

3. Do you look forward to playing poker or do it kind of robotically or automatically?

Not really. I enjoy thinking poker, talking poker, learning poker, and at times playing poker. Back last month, and the month before, the volume I put in decreased greatly because it had just gotten rather monotonous. However, this month I moved to 6m, and while my volume isn't great (playing only 4-6 tables), I'm enjoying it a bit more, and feel I'm improving, which is also great.

4. hehe... what's the worst thing you've done on tilt!? (maybe you don't want to share that with the community so you don't have to answer that).

Back in the day I also punched a Taco Bell cup that I thought was empty, and it was NOT. Coke went all over the wall and shit. But the worst was simply to keep playing. Trying to dig myself out of the red. Obviously I'm not going to sleep as well losing $2k as I would if I got back to BE. So I kept playing before realizing it just isn't happening tonight, and stopped.

Also, I'd just like to say, if I lose a session but played well, I don't get upset about the outcome. There's no sense in it. You can't affect what variance is going to throw your way at the time. If I lost and played bad, that's when you can find me dwelling on myself for playing bad.

Cool, thanks to the small (or relatively mid) stakers for their input. Was quite extensive. Overall a sense of... almost apathy? am i right in saying that?

Last night, after getting a much deserved buy-in from the keith sesh, i lost it all in two hands. First one fair enough, set under set although i found myself saying: oh but he JUST so happened to hit HIT set while i hit mine. Thanks. Second one hurt like a bitch. I had almost taken the first one ok, reloaded and carried on.. but this one... after my swings... got in a massive flop, heated multi way, hit my set and bet 2/3 when everyone had checked... cunt face shoves with AJ on A high board, 4 spades appear, he has J spades. I was a 92% fav on the flop.

So.. i got my money in good. So that's fine but why i was so angry was because i feel this is happening too much. My graph goes up slowly, then down to a cooler, up slowly, down to a cooler. At 5 it was the inverse of this. I feel like i'm playing 'good ten nl'. Feel like i know it. Folding is one of the key things at ten. TRY to stop limping, stop completing in the small blind. Learn to LOVE throwing cards away. So i'm playing ok save the odd hand, but i'm having some shit thrown at me a little more than i'm comfortable with.

That would be fine but my win rate is like, less than 3BB/100 which is just unacceptable. So i'm hoping and wondering how much of this is normal etc. we all play in a kind of vacuum in the micro stakes, assuming the poker whore is visiting everyone but us.

Part of why i get angry is because i hear stories of people's massive stake-long heaters. So... some things to note, your thoughts please:

1. At ten/micro stakes in general... however long you assume it will take to beat that stake, times that by three.

2. Don't listen to people's hero stories. It will FUCK your motivation when you're running 'ok' instead of rediculously good.

3. Set yourself a minimum goal like, at realistically worse i should beat my stake in this many months. Then just sit back and play without really watching session by session bankroll progression. I hope to make ten buy-ins per month at about 12-14k hands per month. Even if that means dipping into 5nl.

I've only played like 7k hands at this stake so, maybe if can just distance myself and let the hands play out it'll all come together. Fucking soul destroying at times. I can beat the fish at these stakes easily but at the moment that's not manifesting. Hopefully it will soon!?!

Footnote: My worst tilts... headbutted my wardrobe door and split it from top to bottom. Punched my monitor and cut open two knuckles. Few times got so angry i think i was getting close to passing out :/ lol

You have to realise the swings are just part of the story. For instance my 'hero story' atm is running at about 25bb/100 since I moved to 100nl. My first 25k hands this year I ran at about 0bb/100. The full story is I'm running at 4.5bb/100 (thats 2.25 ptbb/100) over almost 100k hands in my DB. Except even thats not the full story, theres all the poker from before I started using HEM, and theres all the poker still to go. How I'm playing now has nothing in common with how I played say 50k hands ago. Its almost impossible to get the full story, theres only here and now.

"Overall a sense of... almost apathy?"

If by that you mean an indifference, then yeah. Thats the ideal. I know I'm not there, but I'm closer than I was and making more money as a result. How we play, and the quality of our decisions should be all that matter, not how we run. The closer we get to that ideal, the better we'll play, or looked at another way, the more often we'll be playing our A game.


Tonight was a good example regarding headspace for me. Wife wanted to go to bed early, so I decided to play a bit. Was feeling a bit borderline, so wanted to just see how I was going. Got off to a decent start, must have been up $60 in about 120 hands. I lost a few med pots early so was pretty happy, felt I was playing well. That said, I could tell I was just getting more tired and not concentrating well (I misclicked a couple times, including once accidently 3-betting an UTG raise when I didnt realise there was a raise ahead) so started closing my tables down. This was the last hand to play on the last open table:

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($118)
MP ($99.50)
Hero (Button) ($102.30)
SB ($85.40)
BB ($177.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5
1 fold, MP bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50, SB calls $3, 1 fold

Flop: ($11.50) 6, 5, J (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets $8, Hero calls $8, SB calls $8

Turn: ($35.50) 8 (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets $21, Hero raises $90.80 (All-In), SB calls $73.90 (All-In), 1 fold

River: ($204.30) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $204.30

Results:
Hero had 5, 5 (three of a kind, fives).
SB had 7, 6 (straight, nine high).
Outcome: SB won $202.30


Now in my state of mind, if I carried on playing theres a good chance that would tilt me. I played it well and the table fish hit an 18% river card. When I'm tired or emotional, that can still affect me. When I'm feeling good, and in the right place though, I would be almost happy about that. I'm happy to be playing on a table with someone who'll make that call. The second is where you want to be, the first is what you want to avoid.

Hopefully if I hadnt already started closing down I'd have been able to close down if I did tilt, but the times like these that I havnt when I'm in a bad head-space are the biggest losing sessions in my DB.

I think it's best just to not have any expectations at all in regards to moving up. From the moment I deposited $100 and started playing $2NL, now @ $10NL, and in the future wherever I end up, I have a healthy respect that I may not be able to beat the stake I'm playing at, yet always do my best to be a winner and the best winner I can be. If you start thinking you'll move up after this number of hands or that number of days, you're more likely to be disappointed. Just worry about the quality of your play.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Footnote: My worst tilts... headbutted my wardrobe door and split it from top to bottom. Punched my monitor and cut open two knuckles. Few times got so angry i think i was getting close to passing out :/ lol

either sort out your emotional attachment to results or quit poker. I'm not kidding. Please don't take offence at this.

How would you feel about this type of shit:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($234.15)
MP1 ($21.20)
MP2 ($101.65)
CO ($165.30)
Hero (Button) ($189.20)
SB ($98)
BB ($98.50)
UTG ($100.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 10
4 folds, CO bets $2, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($5.50) J, Q, K (2 players)
CO bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($16.50) 7 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $12, CO raises to $24, Hero raises to $181.70 (All-In), CO calls $133.80 (All-In)

River: ($332.10) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $332.10 | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had A, 10 (straight, Ace high).
CO had K, 8 (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: CO won $329.10

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($70.90)
MP1 ($114.70)
MP2 ($108.60)
CO ($82.45)
Button ($100)
Hero (SB) ($100)
BB ($43.10)
UTG ($116.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
5 folds, Button bets $3, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, Button raises to $17, Hero calls $7

Flop: ($35) 2, 7, J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $20, Hero calls $20

Turn: ($75) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $63 (All-In), Hero calls $63 (All-In)

River: ($201) K (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $201 | Rake: $3

Results:
Button had K, K (three of a kind, Kings).
Hero had J, J (three of a kind, Jacks).
Outcome: Button won $198

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (3 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($315.20)
SB ($35.75)
BB ($247.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, 2
Hero bets $3.50, 1 fold, BB raises to $12, Hero calls $8.50

Flop: ($24.50) 2, J, 9 (2 players)
BB bets $18, Hero raises to $50, BB raises to $121, Hero raises to $303.20 (All-In), BB calls $114.50 (All-In)

Turn: ($495.50) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($495.50) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $495.50 | Rake: $1

Results:
Hero had 2, 2 (three of a kind, twos).
BB had 9, 8 (flush, Jack high).
Outcome: BB won $494.50

Dayum.

Man i can not believe fish do that at those stakes! fuckers! like, that's 25% odds with those flush chasers.

I spent about 24 hours with my jaw to the floor over yesterday's stack loss. Here it is... like i mentioned, 92% on the flop.

I usually limp small pp early if i'm up against fish, call if the implied odds are good. In this case i was busy and missed who the original raiser was BUT saw all the fuckers involved and figured if i hit, i'd take some serious bb. So hence the large call...

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($5.90)
UTG+1 low live ($3.90)
CO jaycob00 ($6.10)
BTN 69pkrplayer ($7.40)
SB DreamW_pl ($6.00)
BB ophelie59 ($10.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.10, low live calls $0.10, jaycob00 calls $0.10, 1 fold, DreamW_pl raises to $0.60, ophelie59 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, low live calls $0.50, jaycob00 calls $0.50

Flop: ($3, 5 players)
DreamW_pl checks, ophelie59 checks, Hero bets $2.10, 2 folds, DreamW_pl goes all-in $5.40, ophelie59 folds, Hero goes all-in $3.20

Turn: ($13.70, 2 players)

River: ($13.70, 2 players)

Final Pot: $13.60
DreamW_pl shows:
Hero shows:

DreamW_pl wins $13.05 ( won +$7.05 )
ophelie59 lost -$0.60
Hero lost -$5.90
low live lost -$0.60
jaycob00 lost -$0.60

yeah man, those suck. I can't believe these mother fuckers do it, but then they pay our bankroll when they do that. Thing is... i've done similar things when i feel i've been ahead, like maybe had a strong open ended straight flush draw on the flop.... NEEEEVER hit shit on later streets AND they call with like 2nd pair.

Luck of the fish it seems. The poker god needs them to win so they can be returning customers.

My tilt is grim. It is too strong to control but is getting a teeeeny bit better every week. Learning to stop my sesh if i lose a buy-in of late.

It would probably be a mistake for him to fold there, but lol at him c/r'ing.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

It would probably be a mistake for him to fold there, but lol at him c/r'ing.

Hmmm... Maybe I could be crazy right now, but I think villain played this pretty well all things considered.

Wonderland... Please tell me of one more hand in your range that beats villains AJ in this situation? There isn't one (or at least shouldn't be). Your obviously raising AQ/AK/AA/QQ preflop, and I highly doubt you are limping A2 preflop here. So villain really only has to worry about 3 combos of hands that beat him [22]. If you are doing this with a few hands like 6s5s, 8s7s, Ts9s, or even playing a weaker ace like AT this way, then villain's play isn't bad.

It just so happens you were at the very top of your range, and villain got lucky. I wouldn't curse his "donk" plays or anything over this. As you said you got your money in good. I think he played it well also (maybe).

Stacks, that's an excellent point actually.

I don't often think about board texture Vs villains' line.

If someone limp calls and the board has some broadways then we can evaluate fairly accurately depending on their stats.

I only have two hands so i can't tell much except he's raising rather wide with AJo there. Maybe he did know what he was doing. And he's probably coming over the top because he puts two spades in my range.

Originally Posted by wonderland

I don't often think about board texture Vs villains' line.

how can you possibly think about villains range without taking into account what they are doing, and what sort of board texture they are doing it on??

well, i mean i DO but i guess this is a good example of how to very much narrow things down. That said, this villain only had 2 hands on me here so he shouldn't just assume i'm not limp/calling AA. People do.

Well, thing is, i can't often put villain on a tightish range because most of my villains are stations who play about 50% of hands. So they're really only ever calling. So i don't want to misrepresent myself by saying i don't look at board texture Vs villain's like much coz i do but ... i guess at my games it doesn't help quite so much because it's SO lose and crazy at times.

Last night i had AK and raised, got one caller, hit my ace, bet, was called... he was kinda short, had about 2 or 2.5 bucks left, so i just shoved the turn. He called with an ace and a 4 kicker *shrug* try putting that in his range.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Last night i had AK and raised, got one caller, hit my ace, bet, was called... he was kinda short, had about 2 or 2.5 bucks left, so i just shoved the turn. He called with an ace and a 4 kicker *shrug* try putting that in his range.

donks over-valuing Ax. . . . . standard. FWIW, I was at 10NL at the start of the year, and I dont think it was necessarily THAT crazy. Definately not crazy enough to justify saying that you cant put people on ranges all the time because so many of the players there are batshit insane.

also, with regards to your "people do" approach to limping AA pre - villain has absolutely no reason what so ever to think you'd do this. Add that to the fact that in this case he has an A, and I don't think you can honestly expect him to have AA in your range at all (if he is even thinking about that).

if you're isoing unknown limpers preflop and putting AA in their range a lot of the time (because you know, people do it) then I'd suggest thats something you need to stop doing.

wonderland, can you make me a sweet avatar like yours?

f the haterz, you da bomb yo, keep doin what ya doin

Originally Posted by wonderland

Last night i had AK and raised, got one caller, hit my ace, bet, was called... he was kinda short, had about 2 or 2.5 bucks left, so i just shoved the turn. He called with an ace and a 4 kicker *shrug* try putting that in his range.

Get better at putting people on ranges imo.

Originally Posted by lolzzz_321

wonderland, can you make me a sweet avatar like yours?

I a graphic designer

you sweat me and i shall grant your wish???

FOR THE RECORD... i AINT.. putting AA in everyone's limped range.

Get better at putting people on ranges imo.

as the saying goes.... well duh! lolz

i like renton's ABCD thing, getting there slowly. Tell you what i am fucking proud of, i'm starting to get a real good sense for what people's bet amounts and timings mean vs my range estimates and board texture. I have put people on such a tight range before, called and been proven right, that now i'm obeying my instincts and folding, i'm right a great deal of the time and it's saving me some nice $$

u can watch me play some time, i g2 sleep now though

Originally Posted by lolzzz_321

u can watch me play some time, i g2 sleep now though

bootiful. I shall hold you to that. If there's any one on one learning to be done, i snatch it like a monkey snatches a tourists backpack for the savoury human snacks therein.

i didn't create that avatar from scratch btw, i grabbed part of it from the intermanet. have a think about what you wants.

piece out hermies.

Just reading Spoonitnow's infamous BR management for people with balls.

It's funny, i avoided it for so long coz i assumed it would be about playing with a small BR! like under-rolled, so i was like: gah, i don't have balls then, i don't want to read that.

But it's actually about playing with a very big role. I think i likes that idea. You play until you're kicking your stake's ass and are very comfortable in it. Like now, for me when i go back to 5nl, i'm set, there's hardly any doubt or fear, i just plough through with confidence.

So, i would summarise with a one liner:

Learn to LOVE your current stake.

Make friends with it, buy it dinner, clean up it's droppings... coz you guys are gonna be room mates for a loouwng taam. Stop thinking: my stake SUCKS, i wants more $$.

Coz some day, when you're truly beating your stake, it will be worth more $$ than the first few dozen k hands at the new stake. Like me now, i'm probably able to make more money at 5 than 10.

Edit: what fucked me up was watching a video of some guy play 25 or 50 and saying something like: guys, you really should be beating these stakes pretty quick, like about a month per stake or so. I was like !! wheeee. So i got that stuck in my head. Got to take it easy, it's not a race. I think my huge brick-wall-heatbutting tilt could be mainly put down to that concept: i feel like poker is a race.

just pm me some times u r available, i can watch u if u like or play like 20nl or 10nl

Originally Posted by wonderland

Edit: what fucked me up was watching a video of some guy play 25 or 50 and saying something like: guys, you really should be beating these stakes pretty quick, like about a month per stake or so. I was like !! wheeee. So i got that stuck in my head.

Being results oriented is about more than being pissed off when you take a bad beat. Have you considered that perhaps one of the things that affect you (and many others) psychologically is being fixated on living the balla life when you're at 10nl?

In most pursuits in life we perform best when we play for the love of playing, when our focus is on the intricacies and fascinations of the task at hand, not on the fame and fortune that performing that task well might bring us.

Or as Kipling put it:

"If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same"

With that said...if you're looking to make alot of money, you're better off going to business school, getting some sort of financial designation, and then kissing ass and doing whatever you can to get into upper management.

JMO

Quite. My post was saying something closer to the point that you just made than you might think.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Edit: what fucked me up was watching a video of some guy play 25 or 50 and saying something like: guys, you really should be beating these stakes pretty quick, like about a month per stake or so. I was like !! wheeee. So i got that stuck in my head. Got to take it easy, it's not a race. I think my huge brick-wall-heatbutting tilt could be mainly put down to that concept: i feel like poker is a race.

The one stake per month is about right for microstakes imo. However, it's obviously dependent on how many hands you are putting in... I would say at the microstakes (2nl-50nl) a player just starting should be able to move up every 30k hands barring no terrible variance. Whether that's a week of play, a month, or 3 months. Depends on volume.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

Quite. My post was saying something closer to the point that you just made than you might think.

Yeah for sure, your post is excellent, I was just taking it to a more specific level.

For example: apply to business school, graduate, get a CA/CGA/CFA/CPA, get job, go from there.