operation: same as everyone else

this one is a fold pre. villain is 11/11 over about 70.i tanked for a while and then the BC mantra "getting all-in pre w/KK 100bb deep is never a cooler", coupled with my fishy attachment to having the preflop second nuts, made me shove. i'm going to try do an EV equation on this one because it should be a simple one and learning how to do that kind of stuff is good for someone who wants to learn how to play poker.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($10)
UTG ($10.09)
MP1 ($9.79)
MP2 ($4.69)
Hero (CO) ($10.90)
Button ($7.89)
SB ($11.35)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
UTG bets $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.40, 1 fold, SB raises to $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $10.90 (All-In), SB calls $7.40
Flop: ($22.30) 9, 6, J (2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: ($22.30) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($22.30) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $22.30 | Rake: $1.11

ok so pot is 0.4 + 1.4 + 3.5 + 0.1 = 5.4.
i'm going to say for fun that his range is KK+,AK. i truly believe it's only KK+, but "wotev"

my immediate "risk" is $10.9 - 1.4 = $9.5 in order to win 5.4 (when he folds)
when i win i get current pot + opponens remaining stack. 5.4 + (10.9 - 3.5) = 12.8
when i lose, i obviously lose $10.9 which, i've established, is how much i'm "risking"

against KK+, AK i have

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.293% 43.79% 03.51% 67479612 5402286.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 52.707% 49.20% 03.51% 75823176 5402286.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

he never folds any of that range so
0 * 5.4 = ldo (he folds)
0.47 * 12.8 = 6.016 (he calls, i win)
0.53 * -10.9 = -5.77 (he calls, i lose)

6.016 - 5.77 = 0.246. super marginally +EV.

now lets see how -EV it really was.

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.618% 15.59% 07.03% 11209632 5056266.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 77.382% 70.35% 07.03% 50594604 5056266.00 { KK+ }

he never folds so yep.
0.22 * 12.8 = 2.816
0.77 * -10.9 = -8.93

2.816 - 8.93 = -6.114. not very pretty.

moral #1 - 11/11's at 10nl aren't 4betting anything but the nuts out of the blinds. especially not this size. if he does 4bet QQ or AK here i think he's more inclined to jam. definitely more so than with AA, which obv. wants to entice me to continue and create an SPR of ~1 if i call, or otherwise get it in pre.

moral #2 - even if they are 4betting the second nuts, getting it in vs that range is giving them a freeroll.

moral #3 - ranges, equity, fold equity, EV equations. i don't think this is a cooler for a player who can hand-read to a degree. granted, no tommy angelo money was exchanged (i'm sure this dude gets it in with KK pre 100% too), but i'd prefer to maximise my EV than say "oh well, he would have lost a stack in my spot. no reciprocal money changed hands"

Originally Posted by rpm

this one is a fold pre. villain is 11/11 over about 70.i tanked for a while and then the BC mantra "getting all-in pre w/KK 100bb deep is never a cooler", coupled with my fishy attachment to having the preflop second nuts, made me shove. i'm going to try do an EV equation on this one because it should be a simple one and learning how to do that kind of stuff is good for someone who wants to learn how to play poker.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($10)
UTG ($10.09)
MP1 ($9.79)
MP2 ($4.69)
Hero (CO) ($10.90)
Button ($7.89)
SB ($11.35)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
UTG bets $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.40, 1 fold, SB raises to $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $10.90 (All-In), SB calls $7.40
Flop: ($22.30) 9, 6, J (2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: ($22.30) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($22.30) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $22.30 | Rake: $1.11

ok so pot is 0.4 + 1.4 + 3.5 + 0.1 = 5.4.
i'm going to say for fun that his range is KK+,AK. i truly believe it's only KK+, but "wotev"

my immediate "risk" is $10.9 - 1.4 = $9.5 in order to win 5.4 (when he folds)
when i win i get current pot + opponens remaining stack. 5.4 + (10.9 - 3.5) = 12.8
when i lose, i obviously lose $10.9 which, i've established, is how much i'm "risking"

against KK+, AK i have

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.293% 43.79% 03.51% 67479612 5402286.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 52.707% 49.20% 03.51% 75823176 5402286.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

he never folds any of that range so
0 * 5.4 = ldo (he folds)
0.47 * 12.8 = 6.016 (he calls, i win)
0.53 * -10.9 = -5.77 (he calls, i lose)

6.016 - 5.77 = 0.246. super marginally +EV.

now lets see how -EV it really was.

Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.618% 15.59% 07.03% 11209632 5056266.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 77.382% 70.35% 07.03% 50594604 5056266.00 { KK+ }

he never folds so yep.
0.22 * 12.8 = 2.816
0.77 * -10.9 = -8.93

2.816 - 8.93 = -6.114. not very pretty.

moral #1 - 11/11's at 10nl aren't 4betting anything but the nuts out of the blinds. especially not this size. if he does 4bet QQ or AK here i think he's more inclined to jam. definitely more so than with AA, which obv. wants to entice me to continue and create an SPR of ~1 if i call, or otherwise get it in pre.

moral #2 - even if they are 4betting the second nuts, getting it in vs that range is giving them a freeroll.

moral #3 - ranges, equity, fold equity, EV equations. i don't think this is a cooler for a player who can hand-read to a degree. granted, no tommy angelo money was exchanged (i'm sure this dude gets it in with KK pre 100% too), but i'd prefer to maximise my EV than say "oh well, he would have lost a stack in my spot. no reciprocal money changed hands"

You can always just call the raise pre-flop. Also, ffs don't do semi-bluff calculations with the second nuts. Hopefully you see why.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You can always just call the raise pre-flop.

That's true, but it probably won't help much unless an A or K come. I guess if it's monotone, it may help us decide whether to fold or continue. Otherwise, I think the money still goes in. Is there any other reason to call preflop?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

You can always just call the raise pre-flop. Also, ffs don't do semi-bluff calculations with the second nuts. Hopefully you see why.

haha the "semi-bluff" i was referring to was the 98hh hand where i jammed the flop, perhaps on the last page now. that KK was just a hand i wanted to dissect in terms of EV to show myself that stacking off with KK preflop isn't always +EV

Originally Posted by rpm

haha the "semi-bluff" i was referring to was the 98hh hand where i jammed the flop, perhaps on the last page now. that KK was just a hand i wanted to dissect in terms of EV to show myself that stacking off with KK preflop isn't always +EV

lol oh

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

That's true, but it probably won't help much unless an A or K come. I guess if it's monotone, it may help us decide whether to fold or continue. Otherwise, I think the money still goes in. Is there any other reason to call preflop?

lol what? we get to play our hand in position against a much weaker range instead of making a roughly break even 3b

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

lol what? we get to play our hand in position against a much weaker range instead of making a roughly break even 3b

I thought you meant he should flat the SB raise instead of shoving. So, against the SB, there's no reason to think his range is much weaker unless he's a known squeezer. If you're saying to call the UTG open raise...... that's something I've been thinking about but so far I'm still 3betting KK. If we're just calling, it's probably better to do it in a heads-up situation, if possible.

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

I thought you meant he should flat the SB raise instead of shoving. So, against the SB, there's no reason to think his range is much weaker unless he's a known squeezer. If you're saying to call the UTG open raise...... that's something I've been thinking about but so far I'm still 3betting KK. If we're just calling, it's probably better to do it in a heads-up situation, if possible.

Yeah I meant just call the original raise