OP: Learn to beat the little game first

I got a nice Christmas present, my wife got me a FTP Gift card, so I got a $150BR as a stocking stuffer, then I proceeded to run it to about $170 or so, unlocked a 10% ($15) part of the bonus, and figured I was a poker genius

I've also figured out, however, that what I typically win @ 2NL I am giving back (albeit in small increments) in 2-7TD, Mixed games, etc.

Sooooooooo.............I'm going to log 20K hands of 2NL and actually keep track of those results on paper, skip the mixed/draw games for a few weeks, BUT also allow myself a max of 2 MTT's (of the $1 variety) later in the day after I put in ideally 1K-1500 hands of 2NL.

Starting BR was $185, and after 886 hands it sits at $187.85

Here are the goals:

++ Begin each new NL Level w/ 75 buy-ins

++ Play each level 6-tabling for 5-10K hands, then move to 8 tables (unless the early hands leave me tilted or confused or both)

++ Clear the bonus ($150 for the 100% on FTP) by 4/21/11.

++ Move up to 5NL FR when the bonus is cleared regardless of BR (but could move up before that if BR reaches $375.)


I know the BR requirements I've imposed are super-nitty and tight, but until I can beat everything up to 10NL I'm sticking to them without wavering.

2,050 hands is a very, VERY small sample, I know that already. No one needs to post that. However, after that number of hands, I'm ahead $7.36, for a total of 3.4 buy-ins. Considering that the most recent session of 515 hands was very lazy and played while drinking, I think the 20K hands are off to a good start.

.............and I did learn something from that last session, namely the importance of walking away/not playing when conditions are anything less than optimal.

Mini-update:

4600 Hands (9 sess.) played, which is obviously still not a ton.

Profit +/- so far is +$12.85, so just a shade over 6 buy-ins. I'm happy with that winrate.

So far, I'm basically sitting back and waiting to bet heavy with big hands on boards that I hit (doesn't pay to hide the big hand b/c they'll call alot of the time), or with big hands betting heavily into a dry flop. Its kinda surprising what these clowns show up with at times, but I'm not complaining!!

I do, however, feel like I may be developing some lazy habits that work at 2NL but won't work farther up the food chain. Too tired tonight to post any specifics, and also can't post HH's as I don't know how to do it. It someone can teach it, I'll give it a whirl.

Anyhow, BR currently sits at $200.91, which I'm happy with ATM.

Originally Posted by redmanstl

2,050 hands is a very, VERY small sample, I know that already. No one needs to post that. However, after that number of hands, I'm ahead $7.36, for a total of 3.4 buy-ins. Considering that the most recent session of 515 hands was very lazy and played while drinking, I think the 20K hands are off to a good start.

.............and I did learn something from that last session, namely the importance of walking away/not playing when conditions are anything less than optimal.

Good luck with your op redmanstl! Playing whilst drinking is the kiss of death my friend and really not worth it. Nothing worse than waking up and realizing you fucked off a large chunk of what you worked so hard for. Trust me I speak this from experience.

I just deleted a big ole long lecture because I miss read something in your earlier post. Damn I'm glad I caught that so I don't sound like a dork!

You're uber-tight bankroll management will be interesting to watch. If I read correctly you will only move up once you've reached 75 bi's for the next level correct? I'm sure there are pros and cons be really I think by the time you are beating a level to that extent you've wasted a lot of valuable time that you could have been working on the next level. You may want to really reconsider a slightly lower number at least for 2nl-10nl for sure! I would recommend you move up to 5nl once your earned $100 in winnings which with your starting bankroll would put you at 50bi's which is really more than sufficient since you'll not notice a big difference between the two. Then once you've earned $300 at 5nl move up to 10nl and you'll be totally fine.

Good luck and I'll be keeping up with your progress.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13;2001714

You're uber-tight bankroll management will be interesting to watch. [I

If I read correctly you will only move up once you've reached 75 bi's for the next level correct?[/I] I'm sure there are pros and cons be really I think by the time you are beating a level to that extent you've wasted a lot of valuable time that you could have been working on the next level. You may want to really reconsider a slightly lower number at least for 2nl-10nl for sure! I would recommend you move up to 5nl once your earned $100 in winnings which with your starting bankroll would put you at 50bi's which is really more than sufficient since you'll not notice a big difference between the two. Then once you've earned $300 at 5nl move up to 10nl and you'll be totally fine.

Good luck and I'll be keeping up with your progress.

You read correctly, and I like the "security blanket" of all the extra BI's, but I think your point is fair in that its gonna take a helluva long time to get up to 75 BI's for the next level. Its really more of a discipline exercise that I'm hoping will pay-off specifically in the move from 10NL to 25NL and then from 25NL to 50NL, assuming the day comes when I'm ready for those jumps.

Its definitely excessive at 2NL and 5NL, so I suppose I reserve the right to move up a bit sooner along the lines of what you suggested IF I feel that the level is sufficiently beaten. That being said, I'm currently profiting @ 2NL (thank the Lord), but still learning there, so I'm happy for now.

Thanks so much for following!!

But all of that being said, I still don't feel like I can confidently declare myself victorious over these lowest levels until 20K or more hands of each. I dunno, maybe I'm just way too stiff on the BRM.

20k is still a relatively small sample size, although it is big enough to tell whether you're playing retarded or not.

GL on the OP, but 75BIs is probably overly nitty BRM.

Just wanted to put this cooler up for reference, I mean we got all the money in so it worked out fine, any other thoughts on this one??

Full Tilt Poker Game #26977615676: Table Newton - $0.01/$0.02 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:35:47 ET - 2011/01/04
Seat 1: BrUnEsCu ($4.89)
Seat 2: UltraBlast ($1.55)
Seat 3: Demetra77 ($2.51)
Seat 4: k3nny02 ($2.07)
Seat 5: LaGringa86 ($2)
Seat 6: LJA MOZO ($2.20)
Seat 7: leowolf4 ($1.90)
Seat 8: Dotessa ($1.37)
Seat 9: HERO ($4.37)
HERO posts the small blind of $0.01
BrUnEsCu posts the big blind of $0.02
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [9d 9h]
UltraBlast folds
Demetra77 folds
k3nny02 folds
LaGringa86 folds
LJA MOZO folds
leowolf4 raises to $0.04
Dotessa folds
HERO calls $0.03
BrUnEsCu calls $0.02
*** FLOP *** [9c 8c 2s]
HERO checks
BrUnEsCu checks
leowolf4 checks
*** TURN *** [9c 8c 2s] [3s]
HERO bets $0.12
BrUnEsCu calls $0.12
leowolf4 has 15 seconds left to act
leowolf4 calls $0.12
*** RIVER *** [9c 8c 2s 3s] [3d]
HERO bets $0.30
BrUnEsCu raises to $4.73, and is all in
leowolf4 folds
HERO calls $3.91, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.52 returned to BrUnEsCu
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BrUnEsCu shows [3h 2h] a full house, Threes full of Twos
HERO shows [9d 9h] a full house, Nines full of Threes
HERO wins the pot ($8.31) with a full house, Nines full of Threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.90 | Rake $0.59
Board: [9c 8c 2s 3s 3d]
Seat 1: BrUnEsCu (big blind) showed [3h 2h] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Twos
Seat 2: UltraBlast didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Demetra77 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: k3nny02 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: LaGringa86 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: LJA MOZO didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: leowolf4 folded on the River
Seat 8: Dotessa (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: HERO (small blind) showed [9d 9h] and won ($8.31) with a full house, Nines full of Threes

1st comment-use the hand converter. Make it much easier to read.

2nd comment-I hope you made some notes on villian for this hand.

3rd comment- You really plan on waiting until $375 to move up to 5NL and $750 to move up to 10NL? You realize how hard that will be to do?

Assuming current BR of $200 and I can still cipher,
if you run good at 5bb/100 hands then you will need to
play 175,000 hands at 2NL just to get to 5NL
and another 230,000 hands at 5NL to get to 10NL.

So assuming you can consistantly run this good for 400k hands (unlikely) and you can play 1k hands per day then it will take you just over a year to get to 10NL.

Not going to be easy...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($4.89)
UTG ($1.55)
UTG+1 ($2.51)
MP1 ($2.07)
MP2 ($2)
MP3 ($2.20)
CO ($1.90)
Button ($1.37)
Hero (SB) ($4.37)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 9
5 folds, CO bets $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.03, BB calls $0.02
Flop: ($0.12) 9, 8, 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks
Turn: ($0.12) 3 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.12, BB calls $0.12, CO calls $0.12
River: ($0.48) 3 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.30, BB raises to $4.73 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $3.91 (All-In)
Total pot: $8.90 | Rake: $0.59

It won't be easy, you're definitely right.

And I might find that the BR limits are excessive, and maybe I'll dial them down a bit at some point. Its a possibility for sure.

But even if I don't, I'd be happy with that roadmap to 10NL. It definitely wouldn't suck to move up 2 levels in a year, especially w/ such strict guidelines imposed on my BR.

If playing with a huge number of buy-ins is gonna cause you to play better and not worry about the money, it's probably worth it. It's definitely NOT worth it to do something you are not comfortable with. Hopefully as you move up a bit, you will gain confidence and end up moving up quicker than you thought.

What you are doing is wayyy better than taking too many shots and just blowing through bankrolls, that's for sure.

I'm currently grinding the micro stakes as well what is your FTP screen name? Mine is the same as my name here.

John here btw

Originally Posted by courtiebee

If playing with a huge number of buy-ins is gonna cause you to play better and not worry about the money, it's probably worth it. It's definitely NOT worth it to do something you are not comfortable with. Hopefully as you move up a bit, you will gain confidence and end up moving up quicker than you thought.

What you are doing is wayyy better than taking too many shots and just blowing through bankrolls, that's for sure.

Thanks for the encouragement........the way I see it, this is my 3rd little foray into poker, and the other 2 times I had no goals, really, just tried to find a game, sit in it, and hope it worked out fine.

This way, I do have a goal, I do have something to focus on, and the nitty BRM isn't really a negative in my mind.

Actually, I thought about it and imagined what it would be like if we knew the BANKROLLS (not just what's on the table) of every player we played against. Personally, I'd love to know how a decision for say 25BB's (0.50 at my level) was going to dent this guy's overall BR - - - if he only has 10 bucks behind, he'll probably call when he should raise, fold when he should call, etc............but if I knew someone at my table was 100 or more BI's deep overall, I'd probably want to avoid him (provided that he's any kind of solid player). Mathematically, he can shove when its appropriate and not get bent out of shape about the result - - he'll be fine either way. I don't want him at my table.

As far as a confidence issue, I'd say it is and it isn't, insofar as I'm still learning and fine-tuning some real basics compared to other players. But at the same time, I'm finding PLENTY of players on my site who are plenty worse than me, and I'm getting a good feel for when they'll cough up a good chunk of their stack (or the whole thing). Honestly, I cheer for them when they're behind - - if they win, they're "feelin lucky" and apt to stay around. If they lose, I get a nice conso prize in the form of the pot. Playing 100 BI's or more deep allows me to do stuff like that rather than focus on results, yell at them, wish curses on their families, etc etc.

Playing this deep, at least IMO, allows for optimal play and minimizes the need to be results-oriented. As a starting guideline, that's enough for me.

It is the lessor of evils no doubt!

Another mini-update:

++ Played 1K hands today after work, may play a few more later, but finished ahead 1.5 BI's ($2.82 to be exact), and considering that I got stacked off when QQ<KK like 40 hands into the session, I was happy with the rest of it as it went.

++ Through 7,600 hands, I'm ahead $27.09 or 13.5 BI's. BR currently sits at $212.71

++ I STILL have no clue most of the time what to do with low pocket pairs, particularly OOP, and AJ (suited or not) is a hand that I fold preflop out of confusion probably more times than is necessary. I'm going to go try to find some HH's from low PP hands, and also search here for advice on how to play them.

++ I'm satisfied and in fact quite happy with my progress, still feel like I have alot to learn. Thanks for following!!

Originally Posted by redmanstl

++ I STILL have no clue most of the time what to do with low pocket pairs, particularly OOP, and AJ (suited or not) is a hand that I fold preflop out of confusion probably more times than is necessary. I'm going to go try to find some HH's from low PP hands, and also search here for advice on how to play them.

your best bet is to post some hands. Find a hand where you have a PP and have no idea what you're doing and post it here or in the Beginners Circle.

Well, that was fun......... -3 BI's over about 1K hands, and although most of it was due to AA < QQ & QQ < AA, it was still a good reminder that I'm not god and this level is still not sufficiently beaten - - I am making some very elementary errors still, and I need to get them cleaned up (while still clearing the FT bonus) before I even THINK about a jump to 5NL.

I will say that PT3 is nice, although the on-screen display is a little much for me, the graphs and session reviews are nice, and they are great for helping me to see a leak (and there are MANY) quickly.

Anyhow, still ahead $20.22 through 8,800 hands, and overall BR currently sits at $203.23

Originally Posted by redmanstl

Well, that was fun......... -3 BI's over about 1K hands, and although most of it was due to AA < QQ & QQ < AA, it was still a good reminder that I'm not god and this level is still not sufficiently beaten - - I am making some very elementary errors still, and I need to get them cleaned up (while still clearing the FT bonus) before I even THINK about a jump to 5NL.

I will say that PT3 is nice, although the on-screen display is a little much for me, the graphs and session reviews are nice, and they are great for helping me to see a leak (and there are MANY) quickly.

Anyhow, still ahead $20.22 through 8,800 hands, and overall BR currently sits at $203.23

Reflected on this session while getting cleaned up to go to IRL work, and it occurred to me that

A) I took risks or tried cute things when I was down that I wouldn't have tried while ahead in a session,

B) I spent way too much time looking at the cashier and thinking about my PT3 graph going down,

C) I started assuming "these donkeys are horrible and just b/c I'm down doesn't mean I can't push them around!!". I was wrong.

D) I didn't feel like playing for the last 300-ish hands but did so anyways to get 1K hands played/posted.

Anyone who's been through this cycle have ideas for the next few sessions??

Originally Posted by redmanstl

Reflected on this session while getting cleaned up to go to IRL work, and it occurred to me that

A) I took risks or tried cute things when I was down that I wouldn't have tried while ahead in a session,

B) I spent way too much time looking at the cashier and thinking about my PT3 graph going down,

C) I started assuming "these donkeys are horrible and just b/c I'm down doesn't mean I can't push them around!!". I was wrong.

D) I didn't feel like playing for the last 300-ish hands but did so anyways to get 1K hands played/posted.

Anyone who's been through this cycle have ideas for the next few sessions??

I'd say the main thing is you've identified the problems so that is a great start.

A.) I took risks or tried cute things when I was down that I wouldn't have tried while ahead in a session,

I think this tends to be a common mistake we make. Just keep reminding yourself of what has worked and don't get away from that. Make sure you are pausing and thinking through everything before each move. When you do this add the question "is this part of what has made me successful upto this point?" If the answer is no then ask yourself why am I doing something different here? If you don't have a sufficient answer such as "this is a leak I am trying to fix" or "this villains tendencys make this +ev" otherwise don't do it.


B) I spent way too much time looking at the cashier and thinking about my PT3 graph going down,

This is the kiss of death for sure. While playing you want to concentrate on make each play correctly one at a time. If you do this the results will follow. I know it's hard when you have a new toy such as pt3 and you like all those charts and graphs etc but they are tools to help you succeed and other than the hud portion are to be used for reviewing hands, sessions etc.


C) I started assuming "these donkeys are horrible and just b/c I'm down doesn't mean I can't push them around!!". I was wrong.

Remember we are those donkeys at this point. Don't assume they are always playing back at you or bluffing because the usually aren't. Also even a blind squirl finds a nut so don't just bang away at the raise button because you've seen dumbshit do dumbshit. If you don't have a good hand then get the hell out of the hand no matter how reckless the donks are.


D) I didn't feel like playing for the last 300-ish hands but did so anyways to get 1K hands played/posted.

Practice good discipline and stop playing when you aren't @ 100%. And NEVER chase your losses ever. This will only compound the problem and cause your tilt to go through the roof. As far as wanting to hit the 1k mark it don't much matter if that mark is a loosing mark now does it. You'd much rather be at the 760 mark with a positive winrate than 1k with -ev.

Thanks, Harley.........great thoughts and input, to be sure.

The next 1K hands went better, so at least I'm not permanently retarded or unable to play FR!!

OK so I thought it was time for a mini-update, been a few updates to this OP that were worth recording:

+++ Played 28K hands of 2NL, had one significant downswing in the middle, but still managed to finish ahead $66 and some change.

+++ Felt like despite profiting, I was learning and practicing some lazy habits at 2NL.

+++ Started getting a little bit tired of FR, so switched it up and mixed in a few SNGs / MTTs.

+++ Decided that 50 buy-ins was plenty to take a look at 5NL. Realized the players at 5NL are functionally the same as 2NL, in fact a little easier at times - - idk, it seems like the $$ matters just enough more to them that they'll make laydowns in a slightly more predicable fashion.

+++ Got a nice BR Boost from finishing 4th out of 356 in a MTT.

+++ Now playing 5NL with a more than ample BR, and letting PT3 analyze my results AFTER I play, as opposed to digesting them while I'm playing.

+++ BR currently sits at $329 and change.

All sounds good. I'm glad you decided to move up to 5nl atleast!

Played a solid (but very short) session of 5NL last night, finished ahead 3 BI's.

BUT..........the much bigger news in this OP is that 2 emails and 12 hours after my initial inquiries, I'm now receiving rakeback from FTP's preferred affiliate!!! I couldn't believe how quick everyone responded.

It obviously hasn't paid me back anything yet (it pays out on Fridays, I believe??) but I feel great knowing I'll be getting it on all future play.

1 quick session played after work, lost about a buy-in (slightly less I think, but who's counting ), and I was playing like I was in a hurry (WHICH I WAS).........so I stopped. And I'm glad that I did.

Going to some friends' house tonight and actually looking forward to hanging out with the non-poker world (no offense to any readers!).

When I get back tonight, may sit in an MTT or two just to give myself a small change of pace.

Another 500 hands today, finished 3 BI's to the good, so that's positive for sure.........felt like I got a bit lucky in a spot or two, but mostly bet good hands for value and collected alot of passive/clueless money.

Currently sitting at $351.80, moving along nicely on the Deposit Bonus, and just got approved for RB on Tuesday AM.

Poker's good ATM.

Little up, little down, I've probably logged about 5K hands at 5NL and BR currently sits at $359....................keep on keepin on

Well, I've played about 8K hands at 5NL, and so far this has been my basic route:

Step 1- - Ran hotter than the July heat on the Equator

Step 2 - - Decided to open up my range in the Button, CO, and SB, including some 3-betting light in those spots, etc.

Step 3 - - Did too much of Step 2 without paying attn. to who I was stealing from and when.

Step 4 - - Got frustrated by the lack of action given to my big hands, so I started betting them smaller to induce action, wound up with some crazy-weird beats b/c of it.

Step 5 - - Decided to tighten back up and let the hands come to me.

Step 6 - - Ran colder than an east coast January while applying Step 5.

Step 7 - - Monster frustration b/c of Step 6, lost about 3.5 BI's by trying to push tables around, not really a tilt job as much as a case of playing loosely with a foreign table image.

Step 8 - - Reconsidered moving back to SNGs and/or MTTs for a bit.

Step 9 - - Decided on a 10K hand review session/re-learning the basics at 2NL. I'm obviously overrolled for it, but I need to get the basics in order at a Level I've knowingly beaten before.

BR currently sits at $345, so with Bonuses and RB I'm doing OK, but I still think the 10K hands will be helpful in the long run.

Well, this little experiment with dropping back down feels like a massive abortion so far........I dropped down to 2NL with $339 in my BR just to practice some of the very, very basics.........and in just over 2K hands I'm down 4 BI's, and I don't feel as though I've played worse, particularly, but jeez.........I'm getting in good against flush and straight draw magnets who are hitting EVERYTHING, when I have QQ they have KK, when I have AA they have 99 (don't worry, that 9's coming on the turn!!), when I make a set they fold to a small bet, etc.

I've never been this lost at a poker table. Ever. I'm sitting at $331 which I realize is a far cry from panic mode, but I can't figure out for the life of me what the problem is. Not even sure at this point if "playing through the rough patch" would make things better or worse.

One thing is for sure, I've not learned to beat the little game first, nor do I have the composure for bigger games at the moment.

Considering that a few days ago I peaked out at $365 and I've gotten $15 in Bonus since then, I've actually dropped something like $45 at 5NL & 2NL...........this is not good at all.

Originally Posted by redmanstl

Well, this little experiment with dropping back down feels like a massive abortion so far........I dropped down to 2NL with $339 in my BR just to practice some of the very, very basics.........and in just over 2K hands I'm down 4 BI's, and I don't feel as though I've played worse, particularly, but jeez.........I'm getting in good against flush and straight draw magnets who are hitting EVERYTHING, when I have QQ they have KK, when I have AA they have 99 (don't worry, that 9's coming on the turn!!), when I make a set they fold to a small bet, etc.

I've never been this lost at a poker table. Ever. I'm sitting at $331 which I realize is a far cry from panic mode, but I can't figure out for the life of me what the problem is. Not even sure at this point if "playing through the rough patch" would make things better or worse.

One thing is for sure, I've not learned to beat the little game first, nor do I have the composure for bigger games at the moment.

this post says that you're running bad. if that is the case, you have to fight through it.

If you are playing bad too, that is another story. I hope you have been posting hands and trying to actively figure it out.

GL

Only the upper echelon of grinders can brush away a downswing like a fly. It's obvious you're letting it effect you negatively. But don't feel bad about it... happens to everyone. I used to deal with it by tilting. Now I mostly question my game - am I doing this right or doing that right. reviewing your hands does wonders. If you're playing hands well, there's really nothing to get frustrated about because the money WILL come if you continue to play your A-game. And as much as downswings suck, heaters are so much better. I was down 3 BI last night within the first 5 minutes or so. After about an hour of b/e poker I started picking up hands and getting in good spots with the fish to my right. In about 10 minutes I was back up 5+ BIs.

Yeah, I know... CSB.

Current BR sits @ $366 and change, did well in a few SNGs whilst taking a break from the cash grind...........

But poker may be on the back burner for a bit as my son was just diagnosed with congenital glaucoma. Not sure what all it will mean for us yet, but his early prognosis is very good - - awesome pediatric doctors FTW!!!!

If you are inclined to pray about anything, please pray for him and us as he goes to surgery on Monday. Thanks, and run great!!!!