your play on the turn?..

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($2.97)
MP1 ($0.54)
MP2 ($3.57)
CO ($2)
Button ($2.65)
SB ($5.18)
Hero (BB) ($2.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.14, MP1 calls $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12, Button calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.57) J, A, Q (4 players)
Hero bets $0.36, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.36, Button calls $0.36

Turn: ($1.65) 5 (3 players)
Hero ???

MP2 is a very nitty passive player... 7/0/0

Button is loose semi-passive... 68/3/2

against the button i'd be betting the turn again only the flat call from the nit is really worrying me to be honest...

i was leaning towards a check/call depending on the size of the bet and who it's from and even then i'm still not sure i'd call....

too nitty?... what's your play?

If there both passive isn't c/Cing like the worse thing to do?

yeah that's why i said depending as to who it was.... if it was MP2 i'd fold... if it's Button i'd consider calling...

you could bet for value

I don't like to c-bet this too often.. I go for pot control

check/fold the turn as played

A friend of mine recently brought an important concept to mind. That is, that it is far easier to bet/fold correctly than it is to c/c. As always it's important you put a range on how they act so for instance, one of them is most likely on a flush draw (probably the button) whereas the MP may have some flush draws some, some straight draws, a weaker A, an AQ, AJ, and in a very rare case KT, maybe some other 2pair like QJ or maybe KQ. So you are beating some of his range and losing to some of it but if you C/C you really don't extract any more value from the worse hands than you would by bet/folding, and you also give up your ability to control the pot. It's kind of a tough spot because of how the pot has ballooned and if you were to bet a reasonable amount that has any sort of FE weight behind it you are only leaving about a dollar behind. At this point I'd say you're probably either going to be shoving with your TPTK + fold equity + redraw to the straight or c/folding. Sure if one of them donks for like .20 I'd call but if they bet any normal amount just c/cing is probably your worst play.

these were my thoughts exactly... i was clearly folding to any normal sized bet on this turn and folding to any aggression on the flop...

as much as i hated it to do it i cold called small donk bets on the turn and river on this particular hand...

it's these kind of situations though that really do get me into trouble to be honest hence why i posted it...



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($2.97)
MP1 ($0.54)
MP2 ($3.57)
CO ($2)
Button ($2.65)
SB ($5.18)
Hero (BB) ($2.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.14, MP1 calls $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12, Button calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.57) J, A, Q (4 players)
Hero bets $0.36, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.36, Button calls $0.36

Turn: ($1.65) 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04

River: ($1.77) 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08

Total pot: $2.01 | Rake: $0.05

Results below:
Button had A, 2 (one pair, Aces).
Hero had K, A (one pair, Aces).
MP2 mucked A, 3 (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $1.96

I think i must be missing something. Do we have Top Pair Top Kicker against a bunch of people that drool all over their keyboards or dont we?

Originally Posted by clvacva

you could bet for value

+1 btw

yeah we do have TPTK with a couple of morons in play if that's what you're asking...

i'm wondering if i'm being overly cautious or playing to tight when i have TPTK with this board and two people in the pot...

another example would be AsAc with a flop of Kd Qd Th... what then?.. it's a similar situation...

Pretty easy v bet IMO, clearly the looser player is going to be calling with worse and i can see plenty of hands a nitty player will call with. One huge thing is how relevant the stats are to the tighter player. If its over like 14 hands you should be betting for sure.

I check the turn. Given the turn action, I like a value bet on the river.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I check the turn.

could you elaborate please fnord?

I'd be betting the turn fairly often because when i bet the flop id be expecting to get called by every Ax, every pair + flush draw or pair + gutter, some kx and tx hands, and of course aj, aq, qj, kt..however i expect these hands to raise some percentage of the time. So when we get flatted and the turn is a blank i would expect his calling range to remain the same but with some drastically reduced equity. Like, betting 1.10ish seems preferable.

What i think you might be getting at is a combination of building a really huge pot combined with a passive nit, but i dont give the 7/0 much credit at all.

Originally Posted by JKDS

could you elaborate please fnord?

Top pair on a congested multi-way board. Not a spot where I like to put in a lot of money. Betting isn't the only way to gather information and is almost never the cheapest. Heck, given the turn action, I might commit if I think they're straight up betting hand strength.

Stack size is kind of awkward here. Not crazy about getting it in, but if our opponent's didn't suck, pot control would be hard.

I'd be looking to commit 1/4 to 1/3 of my stack on this board. If the money goes all in I am pretty sure this is a marginal losing spot multiway.

After betting the flop we are now oop facing a commitment decision. If we bet and someone shoves.. then what? We just stuck in half our stack and now have to fold. A huge mistake.


We do have some equity on the flop with a a str8 draw and a backdoor FD so sticking around at least one street is not unreasonable, however I really hate sticking in more than 10% of my stack before the river.

If we were in position this hand would play a ton easier. Being heads up would help to.

And yeah.. this is 2NL and it would suck to fold and see them both get all in with Q10 and a FD or some weak Ax hand.. but I really think there are so many more profitable spots at this level that we don't have to push margins.

Long story short, while you are agonizing over this hand there are probably 10 tables flashing for attention with a big pair waiting to get paid off on one of them

PREFLOP.
I like your PFR. Just the right size. I don't like everyone calling. This causes two bad things to happen. First, it makes it more likely that someone will hit a very strong hand (set, random two pair, etc). Second, it means that if we decide to make a normal sized CB....2/3 p, we will be building a very big pot. When the pots and bets get bigger we want to take a little extra time to think things thru. We will also be playing in a much more straightforward way.

FLOP.....Ac Qd Jc
We like the A we don't like the Q, we don't like the J and we don't like the flush draw. We are now behind and drawing very thing to AQ, AJ, QQ, JJ, KT, even QJ has us beat. At the same time there are lots of drawing hands and our opps are getting just about the right odds/implied odds to call with a wide variety of hands (e.g., pair + gutshot , flush draw, pair + BDFD, lots of complex draws). We could easily be up against a hand like KQc or KJc.
I like your bet on the flop, I think this is nearly perfect balance of making the draws pay but not over committing with just a pair. You get two callers. WOW, thats not good I really would have like to win the pot right there. With 2 callers I think there is close to a 50/50 chance we are beat right now.
We do not want to see a club, a K, a Q, or a J. An A or a T would be good cards...especially a non club T. An A would be a good but not a great card as it could fill up one our opps (AJ, AQ). As a side note our BDFD is to the nuts as the Ac is already out. If we see a club we will check hoping that we can get the right odds to make call. Same with a K.
Going into the turn we are cautiously optimistic at the same time we know we could be beat and we will fold to a monster all in. And again this is a very big pot, we really want to take our time and think thru decisions -- no autopilot!


TURN......5s
Should be a brick. Nothing has changed from the flop except that we now know we have two players who like their hands enough to call a pretty sizable flop bet. OTOH, we also know that players are very loose at this levels AND there are a bunch of potential draws out. We have a tricky hand. As a side note our flush draw is now out of the money. I like betting exactly the same amount we bet last time. At the same time I think you could make a good case for checking as the risk of giving a free card and risk that we are beat are fairly close to even. I do NOT like making a monster move here, you still have about 100 BB left. If either opp, both of whom have us covered, go all in...we have to fold.