Your Friendly Neighbourhood Jiggus

Hi everybody.

Been away from the forums for a while. One reason has been the birth of our second child -- and first girl -- on Aug. 22, so I'm very happy for that. The other reason is that I've been feeling quite confident at $25 NL after Miffed analyzed some of my hands, and after I took quite a long break from the gaming tables. However, that good fortune was short lived, and now I am back to the beginning again. Sisyphus has nothing on me.

I've had some very generous help from Miffed in the recent past, and I've already e-mailed him directly with this, yet another sad tale of moronic Jiggus' misadventures, but I thought that I'd also post it up here.


Since September 13th I've dropped to -18.28 BB/100 (over 2,025 hands). It's taken me down to under $500 again (from a zenith of $715 a couple of weeks ago). I'll just mention some other stats for this mega-losing run.

VPIP = 14% (so, I'm playing quite tightly, as usual).
Lost: = -$185
WSF% = 25.34% (I don't hold much value in this stat. If I only played TT - AA, I'm sure it could be up to 50%, but I'd only be winning .004 BB/100).
PFR% = 3.65% (Yes, I've dropped down from a high point of around 6%. This is passive, for most of you, but it is still about 1% higher than I played at the $10 NL tables).

Now, contrast the above with my greatest ever winning run at $25 NL.

2,923 hands.
VPIP = 16% (slightly looser but still pretty standard for me).
Won: + $107
WSF% = 24.76% (see, it's noticeably less than above, but my results are incredibly better; ergo, a meaningless stat).
PFR% = 3.59%
Win rate: 7.35 BB/100 (by far my best ever at this limit).

I am incredibly flummoxed by this situation. It has shattered my scant confidence. My only conclusion is that I am a slightly below average player and am incapable of improving (read, "MORON"). 19,000 hands is enough to proove a case, I think. Over that period I have maintained a pretty constant -2.75 BB/100, and in the last week I've been getting beaten like a red-headed stepchild.

I think that all I can do is drop down (for like the 10th time) and experiment with different styles. Tight/passive (which has made me a lot of money at $10NL), megalo, and tight/uber-aggressive. See which one is the most profitable, if any.

And I know that many of you will miss that I've played 19,000 hands at $25 NL, so I'll mention it again for you unastute readers: I've played 19,000 hands at $25 NL and am a BIG Effin' Loser. And for those of you who don't know me from here, yes, I did beat $10 NL ( all at Paradise, by the way) by playing passively. As my aggression increases, so do my losses. Which points to the possiblity that I dont' know how to be aggressive in the correct manner, or that aggression may not work athe tables I play at. (That's sure to get some ridicule, I know).

Which leads me to another theory (Jiggus' 4th Axiom of NL Poker): styles that work on one site at certain times and limits will not work at another site at certain times and limits (Sx + Tx + SiX + LiX) != (Sx +Tx + SiX +LiX).

But I must get back into the lab at the lower limits and try and prove my theory.

If anyone other than Miffed would like to have a gander at my top 10 losing hands from the last 4 days (for a loss of over $180), please e-mail me and I'll send you a Notepad file. [email protected]

Many thanks to you all for your time and advice, or scorn.

Jigs

Raise more...a lot more.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Raise more...a lot more.

With all due respect, Warpe, I wonder if you realize how incredibly otiose that advice is?

You're about the 10 billionth person who has written that to me at various times during my years here.

From my experience raising means building pots for others to win. When do you raise? How much do you raise? Why would you raise if you know you'll be called no matter what? There are myriad more questions about raising, but I think that I've now shown that your simple advice, whilst, probably well-intentioned, is of virtually no help at all to me.

But thanks anyway.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Warpe

Raise more...a lot more.

With all due respect, Warpe, I wonder if you realize how incredibly otiose that advice is?

You're about the 10 billionth person who has written that to me at various times during my years here.

From my experience raising means building pots for others to win. When do you raise? How much do you raise? Why would you raise if you know you'll be called no matter what? There are myriad more questions about raising, but I think that I've now shown that your simple advice, whilst, probably well-intentioned, is of virtually no help at all to me.

But thanks anyway.

1. They are for you to win but not every one of them.
2. You raise with (1) good hands (2) modest hands with good position.
3. I always raise to $1.11 at the $25 and $2.22 at the $50 unless I have a real big hand and I'll raise to $1.77 and $3.33 respectively if there are 2 or more limpers.
4. You raise to build a nice sized pot for you to win, as you already mentioned.

I know I probably won't convince you otherwise but raising isn't only profitable if you play better than your opponents postflop, it's more fun than being a robot.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

1. They are for you to win but not every one of them.
2. You raise with (1) good hands (2) modest hands with good position.
3. I always raise to $1.11 at the $25 and $2.22 at the $50 unless I have a real big hand and I'll raise to $1.77 and $3.33 respectively if there are 2 or more limpers.
4. You raise to build a nice sized pot for you to win, as you already mentioned.

I know I probably won't convince you otherwise but raising isn't only profitable if you play better than your opponents postflop, it's more fun than being a robot.

Thing is, you don't know how I play until you see my hands. I raise quite normally. If I have QQ, say, and there are 4 limpers I raise $1.80. I raise $1 plus 20 cents for each limper. At some tables I'll start at $2.

Thing is, the word "more" in that advice either means raise more money or raise more often. I can tell you that raising more often means losing big pots more often when you're up against players that call with anything. Raising more money? I've not really tried raising, say 20 x BB every time, but that could be an interesting study.

I'm hardly a robot, but tight is the way that I chose to play, but I'm willing to experiment with other styles. WTF not? This one certainly isn't working.

I do not understand why you both poo-poo my experience at the lower limits, though, where I have seen clear evidence that a passive style can win. Ever since moving up and playing more aggressively things have been quite the opposite.

I think that you are both assuming I play in a certain way. Have a gander at my top 10 losing hands and then see what you think. E-mail me and I'll send 'em to you.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Warpe

Raise more...a lot more.

With all due respect, Warpe, I wonder if you realize how incredibly otiose that advice is?

You're about the 10 billionth person who has written that to me at various times during my years here.

From my experience raising means building pots for others to win. When do you raise? How much do you raise? Why would you raise if you know you'll be called no matter what? There are myriad more questions about raising, but I think that I've now shown that your simple advice, whilst, probably well-intentioned, is of virtually no help at all to me.

But thanks anyway.

My point is simply that your PFR percentages are waaayyyy too low. You are probably only raising premium hands which likely makes you incredibly easy to read. Read Renton's new NL strat posts which, if you haven't been here in a while, you are probably unfamiliar with.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Have a gander at my top 10 losing hands and then see what you think. E-mail me and I'll send 'em to you.

Post them. Then you'll get a lot more/varied input.

To win a big pot, you often have to build one before you get there. Hands like Top Pair don't stack off in unraised pots unless the other guy is really terrible. Even then, passive post-flop betting isn't going to get you there. Heck, pot, pot, pot doesn't get you there if the other guy just calls. Also, once you build a pot, people will try to win it and are more likely give you action with air. Finally, you can just take it down with aggression sometimes when you miss. In the tight full 100NL games you can get away with an absurdly high c-bet %age. However in looser games you have to be a bit picky.

You probably are playing cards too much and not enough position. A wide range of hands are profitable if you can get in cheap on the button.

Finally, looking at just your big losers is a terrible results-oriented, tunnel-vision approach to improving your game. Given the way you play, it's probably hands where all the money is going in anyway or you got sucked out on. Missing value is just as bad of a leak as bad calls and misplaced aggression.

Play g00t,
Fnord

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Have a gander at my top 10 losing hands and then see what you think. E-mail me and I'll send 'em to you.

Post them. Then you'll get a lot more/varied input.

From my experience helping people out looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks. I don't think this guy knows where to look yet.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Thing is, the word "more" in that advice either means raise more money or raise more often. I can tell you that raising more often means losing big pots more often when you're up against players that call with anything. Raising more money? I've not really tried raising, say 20 x BB every time, but that could be an interesting study.

you need to reassess your mindset on the game. First of all, you always want to be up against players that 'call with anything'.

When you sit at a loose table with players that suck, take a few hands to assess the dynamic. If you get 2 orbits of crap to start, just fold it all and watch how the players play. You need to assess: how much are you likely to need to raise to isolate on this table? How much do these players like to stack off, and with what holdings? Home in on individuals. Are they just calling stations who will happily call down with tp 2nd kicker? You know what do do when you make a real hand against these guys. Are they more aggrodonks? Sounds like a CR allin somewhere along the line.

You WANT to have as much money in as possible when you are ahead. if it takes raising 20X when you have aces preflop, do it. And count yourself lucky you can find juicy tables, because I can't where I play.

Fnord, I can honestly say that I am very positionally aware.

Pantherhound, you raise some interesting and possibly useful points. The first thus far.

What I find here, is that the advice is always conflicting. If I post stats that show I'm taking a lot of cheap flops (as Fnord alludes to) than I'm told "tighten up". If I post stats that show I'm tight, people write to loosen up.
I'm confused. Combined with what I read elsewhere, (which is mostly to play super-tight) I guess I end up lost.

I am trying not to be angry at Fnord's shot, but I suppose I can take solace in the fact that he's a Yank.

Originally Posted by Fnord

From my experience helping people out looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks.

Nice sentece. Could you re-write so that it's in proper English, if it has any meaning at all.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Fnord

From my experience helping people out looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks.

Nice sentece. Could you re-write so that it's in proper English, if it has any meaning at all.

seat selection and pure luck have too much influence over your winrate in such a small number of hands for us to gain anything about where your long term leaks are.

What you really need to do is to play say 15000 hands at stakes you are rolled for and never look at your br. Then when you hit the goal of 15k hands post the results and analyse for yourself where you obvious mistakes are. You are more than likely to find that if you play a sample blind like this there is no emotional knowledge of whether you are running good or bad and therefore you see your mistakes from stats and HH's in their purest form.
Your biggest problem at the moment is you are too cash orientated. Youre super confident when up but very self-concious when down and have to realise that making a good decision in a certain spot is far more important long term than the short term effects on your roll. In other words, when up you can fold AA but when down you cant fold it, when its obvious you are beaten

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Since September 13th I've dropped to -18.28 BB/100 (over 2,025 hands). It's taken me down to under $500 again (from a zenith of $715 a couple of weeks ago). I'll just mention some other stats for this mega-losing run.

VPIP = 14% (so, I'm playing quite tightly, as usual).
Lost: = -$185
WSF% = 25.34% (I don't hold much value in this stat. If I only played TT - AA, I'm sure it could be up to 50%, but I'd only be winning .004 BB/100).
PFR% = 3.65% (Yes, I've dropped down from a high point of around 6%. This is passive, for most of you, but it is still about 1% higher than I played at the $10 NL tables).

Now, contrast the above with my greatest ever winning run at $25 NL.

2,923 hands.
VPIP = 16% (slightly looser but still pretty standard for me).
Won: + $107
WSF% = 24.76% (see, it's noticeably less than above, but my results are incredibly better; ergo, a meaningless stat).
PFR% = 3.59%
Win rate: 7.35 BB/100 (by far my best ever at this limit).

I am incredibly flummoxed by this situation. It has shattered my scant confidence. My only conclusion is that I am a slightly below average player and am incapable of improving (read, "MORON"). 19,000 hands is enough to proove a case, I think. Over that period I have maintained a pretty constant -2.75 BB/100, and in the last week I've been getting beaten like a red-headed stepchild.

A 2000 hand sample means nothing and you shouldnt look at your winrate from that sample and make any judgements about your game based solely on that. What are your stats over 19,000 hands?

Originally Posted by Jiggus

I think that all I can do is drop down (for like the 10th time) and experiment with different styles. Tight/passive (which has made me a lot of money at $10NL), megalo, and tight/uber-aggressive. See which one is the most profitable, if any.

And I know that many of you will miss that I've played 19,000 hands at $25 NL, so I'll mention it again for you unastute readers: I've played 19,000 hands at $25 NL and am a BIG Effin' Loser. And for those of you who don't know me from here, yes, I did beat $10 NL ( all at Paradise, by the way) by playing passively. As my aggression increases, so do my losses. Which points to the possiblity that I dont' know how to be aggressive in the correct manner, or that aggression may not work athe tables I play at. (That's sure to get some ridicule, I know).

You lose more when you are more aggressive? Post some hands or explain to us in what situations you get aggressive and what exactly aggressive means to you. A passive game, which your 25nl stats that you gave us show you have, can easily beat these stakes, but you need to remember that all of the money isnt won preflop. So even though your stats are waaaay too nittish for me, you could still play a winning game with those stats and the fact that you arent leads me to believe you have a ton of postflop leaks. Aggression works at your stakes, I and most of the other players who are now playing higher have beaten those stakes with a aggressive game. I did it for over 10k hands at over 10ptbb/100, so dont blame it on the aggression

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Which leads me to another theory (Jiggus' 4th Axiom of NL Poker): styles that work on one site at certain times and limits will not work at another site at certain times and limits (Sx + Tx + SiX + LiX) != (Sx +Tx + SiX +LiX).

But I must get back into the lab at the lower limits and try and prove my theory.

I dont know what Sx, et. all stands for, but I disagree in principle with what you are saying. You are looking into poker as too much of an absolute. Somebody shouldnt have only 1 style, they should know how to adjust to different players and different situations, etc. A "style" may not work at all tables, if it doesnt work then adjust, dont blame the style for that.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Fnord, I can honestly say that I am very positionally aware.

If you were positionally aware you would be raising more than 3% of your hands. You need to start accepting the fact that your game has a lot leaks in it and then work on fixing those, if you dont do that then you will not improve.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Fnord

From my experience helping people out looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks.

Nice sentece. Could you re-write so that it's in proper English, if it has any meaning at all.

Dont be a douche to somebody who decided to come into your thread and give you advice.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

1. They are for you to win but not every one of them.
2. You raise with (1) good hands (2) modest hands with good position.
3. I always raise to $1.11 at the $25 and $2.22 at the $50 unless I have a real big hand and I'll raise to $1.77 and $3.33 respectively if there are 2 or more limpers.
4. You raise to build a nice sized pot for you to win, as you already mentioned.

I know I probably won't convince you otherwise but raising isn't only profitable if you play better than your opponents postflop, it's more fun than being a robot.

Thing is, you don't know how I play until you see my hands. I raise quite normally. If I have QQ, say, and there are 4 limpers I raise $1.80. I raise $1 plus 20 cents for each limper. At some tables I'll start at $2.

Thing is, the word "more" in that advice either means raise more money or raise more often. I can tell you that raising more often means losing big pots more often when you're up against players that call with anything. Raising more money? I've not really tried raising, say 20 x BB every time, but that could be an interesting study.

I'm hardly a robot, but tight is the way that I chose to play, but I'm willing to experiment with other styles. WTF not? This one certainly isn't working.

I do not understand why you both poo-poo my experience at the lower limits, though, where I have seen clear evidence that a passive style can win. Ever since moving up and playing more aggressively things have been quite the opposite.

I think that you are both assuming I play in a certain way. Have a gander at my top 10 losing hands and then see what you think. E-mail me and I'll send 'em to you.

you will win more when players dont know what you have , having a 3.6 PFR you'll get pegged as rock ..seriously your raising range is TT-AA , AQ-AK....that's it....Read Renton's strat on how to play a "positionally" loose style ...(IMO position is more important than the hands you play)

Jiggus,

Likely you're just running bad as you seem to already know what everyone here is telling you. Try this though, or atleast read it, as I've found it useful for my own game.

I guess you're using PokerTracker and playing at full ring games. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is written in a step-wise fashion for you, starting the moment you sit down at a table.

1) Don't play for 2-3 orbits unless you get AA/KK/QQ/AK so you can develop reads and stats on the players at your table.

2) You now have a few reads and some stats on your opps. Plan to pick on the guys who are playing 60/20 or 70/5 or 50/3 or some other type of absurd stats. I'm sure there are tons of them at the 25NL tables. These are the players that you patiently wait for a decent hand against, and when you do get one, play it hard. Most of the time you'll get their stack. Play TPTK and sets hard on these guys, and don't be afraid to chase your straights or flushes against these guys if your odds are right. If you hit they probably won't even notice it. They'll still think their TP/4 kick is good and pay you off. At times though, you'll misread or simply get a bad beat. DO NOT LET IT GET YOU DOWN. Continue to pick on these players.

3) Leave the 10/3 or 13/5 players alone. These players are mirror images of yourself. If you raise pre-flop to 4xBB with A/K and get 1-2 callers and the flop comes K 5 7, and you put in a pot size bet and your nit playing 10/3 opp reraises you, PLAY VERY CAUTIOUSLY. If he tries to put you in on the turn, let the hand go. You're beat. On the other hand, if you have TPTK on a 60/15 player, reraise the flop and play it very aggressively.

Those are some basic things that I've found useful recently. I've laid down big hands against nits and played so-so hands against overaggressive players who see every hand. More often than not, you'll find that you get paid off.

Don't get so down on yourself. If the fact that you've lost $185 recently negatively effects your mentality so much, move down a level to work through the downswing, and build your BR back up.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Fnord

From my experience helping people out looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks.

Nice sentece. Could you re-write so that it's in proper English, if it has any meaning at all.

I second not being a douche.

First of all, let me help and insert the one tiny word fnord could have included to make that sentence more easily understood:

Originally Posted by Fnord

From my experience helping people out BY looking at 1k blocks of hands, those hands aren't his biggest leaks.

And now that's done, let me please ask that you don't have spelling mistakes in posts where you try and correct other peoples' linguistic mistakes. It's akin to when donks call good players donks.

I third the not being a doushe. Way to correct somebody trying to help you in such an annoying way. Here is a piece of advice for you. Try listening to other peoples advice instead of telling them that it just doesnt work when you play that way.

I doubt that for some reason a TAG style wont work for you when it works for everybody else on the planet. You make a real effort to come across as an educated guy. Even though when you raise more than three percent of your hands you will have to make some tougher decisions, try using that brain of yours and maybe youll have some success.

Dont ask for advice that you dont want.

Just some friendly advice.

I are a n-gin-ear.

wow fnord youre funny

DONT HATE THE PLAYA
HATE THE GAME

Stop moaning and groaning over a few hundred dollars - you sound ridiculous. A zenith of 715...? You plummeted to under 500...? Come on - get real here.

Speaking as a micro stakes nit (14/7) , here are some things you could try:

- Move sites, prefereably to one with a bonus to clear. Don't play at pokerstars.

- Pay attention to table selection. At 25nl you should be able to find a seat with position on at least one mega donkey, if not more. Don't sit in a poor, or even an average game at these stakes.

- Raise AQ+, 99+ from any seat, apart from the blinds. Add KQ, AJ and more pairs in MP. Raise some more stuff in late position to isolate the muppets. Steal the blinds. This should get your PFR up to 6-7%. You dont have to cbet every flop, but I'd fire pretty much every time if it's heads up to the flop.

- Buy in for 60BB instead of 100. I tried this when I was short rolled and it works really well. I was almost never put to a tough decision, as it's rarely correct to lay down TPTK/Overpair this deep. Once you get your confidence back up, you can buy in full again.

- Post some hands.

- Read everything in the 2+2 SSNL master sticky: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0#Post3239210

- Remember that variance is a bitch, and 10k hands is not that much.

- Raise !

- Good luck!

Sorry if I've offended. I'm good at that.

Too bad if you don't get my hyperbolic humour either (some of you, that is).

I do try different things, and I'm about to try Miffed's advice because I think that he's hit he nail on my head with what he's written about confidence changing the way I play.

Back down to $10 to grind it out for 15,000 hands.

And to the fellow who wrote about being a microlimit veteran, I am too, and that is why I'm so upset that I can't get by $25 NL.

I'm also an overly sensitive guy, besides.! Really, I am.

About the raising matter, I must tell you that I have been thinking about it constantly the last few days, trying to understand what some of you have been on about. I feel that there is some key aspect I am just not getting. I'm not super smart, just reasonably averagely intelligetn. I just like English being written in a clear and understandable way and I think a bit of decency can go a long way. If I'm offended I react rather knee-jerkily. Explains why I'm blocked on Paradise's chat, you now see.

Again, apologies for my demeanour, if I offended anyone.

Me type g00t, play betta
Chat no block any site
How about them Cowboys what's the line?
Anyone else here like to play slots? What's your favorite one?
How about Blackjack? I bet Jiggus likes to play a little 21.
I got the nuts, good luck sir.
Anyway, gotta run, thanks for the money, I'm off to blow it all at the strip club.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Me type g00t, play betta
Chat no block any site
How about them Cowboys what's the line?
Anyone else here like to play slots? What's your favorite one?
How about Blackjack? I bet Jiggus likes to play a little 21.
I got the nuts, good luck sir.
Anyway, gotta run, thanks for the money, I'm off to blow it all at the strip club.

Fnords first drunk post??

Seems like it.

Fnord, I'm a craps man at the casinos. Pass line and then set out three or four points with full odds on each. Great game, that. Really great.

This is basically what everyone else has said, just with a different emphasis.

I am going to assume that your sessions will be going fine, then you will get a big hand JJ+, and you will raise. You will get a caller (or two) who has position on you. You will bet the flop and either take down a small pot or get raised hard. Then you will either lose your stack if youve got an overpair, or fold and feel weak-tight if there is an overcard, especially if its an ace.

Pretty well the only time you win a big pot is when you get a set over set, or AA vs KK, or you find a completely clueless chimp who likes his bottom pair way too much.

AK and AQ cause you no end of trouble because when you dont hit you usually get called on the flop and then check fold a dry turn, and when you do hit you will again win a small pot by betting the flop and the turn hard.

basically, with the way you play, anyone who is watching the table and isnt mentally challenged can put you on a hand. this allows them to steal pots from you when you are weak, step out of the way when you are strong, and bust your ass when you are strong, but they are stronger.

the reason everyone is telling you to raise more (often, not necessarily more money, unless of course your current raise amount isnt effectively isolating) is that by raising more than just premium hands it is harder to put you on a hand preflop, and harder to judge if the flop could have hit you. try raising a couple of times in one orbit, and then watch when someone reraises your aces the next time you raise. by the way, there isnt anything wrong with folding to a reraise preflop. it may make everyone think you are weak when you raise, which isnt a bad thing.

if you dont want to open up preflop, then you may have to change the way you play postflop to encourage action. try checkraising flops (with a hand and without) on occasion. fire second barrels when someone is constantly calling your flop bets. or check-raise the turn on them. there are many different ways you can change gears postflop if you dont want to do it preflop.

just a couple of suggestions, take them how you want.

Pgil, I don't really know what people are considering premium hands here. I raise with a variety of things (but have actually gotten tighter from the way I played 10,000 hands ago). Aside from the obvious, I raise with AQ, AJ (when in position and it is checked to me), and pairs down to 99 (sometimes lower, but rarely). I pretty standardly C bet when the flop misses me and I've been the pre-flop raiser. And pretty much that will be for 1/2 the pot to the full pot.

I stopped raising suited connectors about 10,000 hands ago. I'm only speaking of $25 NL for the above.

At any rate, I'm interested in pursuing Miffed's task/assignment/pennance, so I'm back down to $10 NL. I'm amply bankrolled and can play a more aggressive style to see if it works there. My last winning run at that limit was through playing a passive style.

I've only played a few hundred hands, but it's quite incredible how much looser things are here.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

I stopped raising suited connectors about 10,000 hands ago. I'm only speaking of $25 NL for the above.

.

Being tight at the lowest stakes is good, but you don't want to be carrying this attitude if/when you move up.

To say 'I stopped raising suited connectors 10,000 hands ago' displays a truly worrying mindset. You need to apply different knowledge to different situations depending on texture, types of players, money behind, reads etc. You need to adapt your game and your actions to different circumstances or you simply won't be successful enough to have made posting on this forum worthwhile.

Here's a couple of stats for you. I play 19/9 at FR and 26/13 at 6max:

All hands: 7 BB/100
Hands raised PF: 121 BB/100
Hands not raised PF: -5.6 BB/100

You are a losing playing over 19k hands; you only raise 3-4% of hands pre-flop. Why won't you recognise there might be a connection here??

Jiggus, a few months ago we exchanged messages and I encouraged you as you seemed to have all the right ingredients to own 25NL. But now you've become closed minded and obstreporous and you think that your poker career to date - one where you're not even able to beat 25NL - trumps the consensus, the almost univerally accepted truism that well-placed aggression is essential in most cases to playing winning poker.

Trust us - you are raising, at absolute minimum, 40% too few hands pre-flop. Sort this out and you will win more money. That's a promise.

this might have been said already, but i just skimmed through the rest of the thread.

if you havent already, read all 3 of renton's guides, implement the play, and you will be owning the game in no time. i was breakeven/slightly losing over my first 7k hands in ring, i read and implemented rentons strategy, and i am now running at ~7.5 BB/100 over the last 10,000 hands.

Where do I find Renton's guides?

Here are links to all three of Renton’s guides.

Preflop Guide
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-39184.htm

Postflop Guide Part I
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-39572.htm

Postflop Guide Part II
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40404.htm

Between these three guides, (I have read them three times) and Fnords latest posted article on folding. I have gone on a 4500 hand upswing of over 14BB/100. I have been break even at best at $25NL on every attempt, although always a little under rolled. This time I stayed at 10NL and destroyed it and in 5000 hands at permanenet $25NL I have a whole new game. I expect a downswing soon but for now my stats are 24/13 at 6max on prima. Jiggus, It's not a lie being told by everyone to get you to lose your stack, find your game.

Well,

If I had to put my finger on it. I think you're playing too tight. The problem with Playing that tightly, is any player with a bead on you, won't give you any action.

When it comes right down to it, about 30% of the hands are playable. While MOST of those hands require position. Some need no position, and some can play out of any position. Some hands can be raised on the button that you normally wouldn't.

The simple fact is, I think 14 and 16% Vpip is tight. You'll cash out winner more often, BUT you'll win less when you do. Playing poker with a few more calls, or even being creative in position can win you lots of money, while only losing marginal amounts. I really reccommend reading, Doyle Brunsons Super System, and applying it.

I had the same problem: I wasnt raising enough, people kept telling me to raise more but I just didnt believe them

The truth is it works. As soon as I raised more preflop and became more aggressive postflop (especially with cbets), I went from break-even to winning.

Why?
If you only raise premium hands:
- everyone knows you are a rock and it's easy to put you on a hand, even for not so aware players, and you then dont get enough action with your good hands.
- You dont make any money from occasionally picking up the blinds/limped money with a hand like JTs after raising.
- You dont make any money from raising preflop, get heads up to the flop, then cbet and pick up the pot right away because your opponent missed the flop (which happens much more than him hitting the flop).


You have to realise that building a huge pot and winning it is NOT the only desirable situation. Picking up small uncontested pots, or picking up the blinds is important as well.
Most of the time I break even with the small pots and blinds, and then make money by winning the occasional huge pot (where I got enough action because of the stealing/picking up I did before).

Jiggus, I hope you're going to respond to the last few posts - let us know how you're getting on!

All this advice about loosening up is good advice I'm sure, but I'm convinced that you can pull a solid winrate out of these games playing tight. I mean, doesn't ilikeaces86 run at 15/7 or something, and beat 2kNL? Though I'm guessing he's pretty good postflop

Anyway, as far as 25nl goes, you can run stupid tight numbers and still win if you sit in good games. Check out these stats posts:

Martindxce: 11/5 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=nit

Sinkrox: 10/3.5 (lol) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=peddle

I was going to link to my old stats, but the image expired. When I first got PT, i ran 11/5 for 40k hands and was at 8ptBB/100, and I pretty much sucked postflop - I just blasted away mostly. I'm convinced you'll win if you stick at it, although raising more hands preflop would be a good idea IMO.

Anyways, good luck, and let us know how it's going.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Mac

All this advice about loosening up is good advice I'm sure, but I'm convinced that you can pull a solid winrate out of these games playing tight. I mean, doesn't ilikeaces86 run at 15/7 or something, and beat 2kNL? Though I'm guessing he's pretty good postflop

Anyway, as far as 25nl goes, you can run stupid tight numbers and still win if you sit in good games. Check out these stats posts:

Martindxce: 11/5 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...&highlight=nit

Sinkrox: 10/3.5 (lol) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=peddle

Anyways, good luck, and let us know how it's going.

I wholeheartedly agree to your analysis, but if you go back to the intent of the original intent of the post is how to extract more money from these situations. Simly put, in order to make more money, you have to risk a little bit more money.

By being a little looser, preflop, looking to get into situations where you may be behind if you had to show down on the flop, but greater than 50% to end up best by the river, ala Doyle Brunson, and trying to de-stack your opponent with your play, you stand to make a lot more money. But you also stand to lose more too, calling with speculative hands, then folding.

From the statistics derived, I think 14-16% vpip is tight. Obviously it's not too tight, but it's still tight. I don't know what optimal vpip is, but I'll be willing to bet it's in the 20% range. (If I'm wrong here, please correct me.....)

My guess is, that 90% of the money made at 14/16% vpip is made by waiting for a big ace, or a big pair, and then raising preflop, c-betting the flop for the takedown, and folding to a re-raise. There's almost no room for any other type of play considering that 1 in 8 hands you're getting a "premium hand" If you only play premiums your opponents recognize it. Pairs can be played out of most any position for a raise as long as the raiser has a decent stack. Suited connectors, one gappers and two gappers can be limped early /single raise called early and middle hoping to hit 2 to the flush and some sort of straight draw. Late these suited connectors can even be raised once in a while, either just to take down the pot with a c-bet, or to make a monster pot when somone catches top two/set against your flush/straight draw. In full games some people even like to zing small pockets from the button every once in a while, just to mix it up a bit.

It's obvi0us that 14-16% vpip makes money, that's why pro's reccommend it in their books, to noobs, who don't know how to play postflop. These same pros play more hands that 14-16% and still make money. Because with their added ability after the flop they stand to make more money from ther opponents, with, and without the best hand.

OK fellows, I'm not looking at my stats at the moment, so I am not sure how it's REALLY going. Maybe you lost it in the mix, but I've decided to take on Miffed's task of playing 15,000 (or thereabouts, at least)hands of $10 NL WITHOUT looking at my 'roll or my PT stats. Just play. I am also using the comfort zone of a big bankroll for this limit to play more aggressively. (Although, I think that the bankroll will soon be zilch, the way things are going).

I do look at the Paradise real time stats for each session. I believe that I am playing far more aggressively, but time will tell. Thing is, I'm getting killed by bad beats. At least 3 per session of late. Full houses and straights losing to miracle rivers and that sort of thing. So my hunch is that I'm actually getting killed. Again, wait until my 15,000 hands are up, which will be at least a couple of more weeks.

I am now raising with pairs down to 44 (for an example), and trying to reraise the raiser more on the turn and river when I think that they're trying to steal and, well, I think I am playing far more aggressively. I am just not winning big pots at the moment. Losing lots of big pots, though. I'd guess that I've dropped about 6 or 8 buy- ins in three sessions. But it's only been about 2200 hands, so I hope it's just variance.

Someone remarked earlier on that I thought I was a clever boy. What a laugh. I'm quite obviously a fuckin' lunch bucket. THE special needs child of FTR more like.

You said you get killed by bad beats. If you raise your aggression and play more hands, your bad beats will go down, at least they did for me.

Why? If you play very tight and wait for big hands, you most likely have to slowplay alot because otherwise people will fold to fast. And slowplaying non-nut hands is usually the best way to get outdrawn on.
Edit: there is a difference between a very tight player picking up a pot right away, and a looser/more aggressive player doing it. For the former its bad because he plays so few hands, he needs them to get payed off big. For the later its good because he plays more hands and picks up those uncontested pots alot, plus he gets payed off big when he hits a monster.

I really had the same problem like I already said: I would only play premium hands, and then when I finally hit something I would have to slowplay it because since I played so few hands I wanted big pots when I finally hit something.
So I play AK, flop top to pair, slowplay it (yay, this hand has to pay off!)
two players follow along, on the river someone suddenly comes out betting/pushing...he made his flush draw or straight draw or his PP became a set...

You have to get used to the idea that its often better to pick up pots right away. If I flop something good but still vulnerable, I'm betting it. Everytime. No more slowplaying for me unless its the nuts or makes a very dry board for everyone else.

If I raise preflop and then I flop TPTK on a coordinated board, I'm going to bet close to the pot usually (sometimes less). If someone follows along with his flush draw, he is usually making a mistake. If everyone folds, I'm ok with that.

My own draws I play the same way: nut flush draw but nothing else, Im gonna bet at it. If everyone folds...yay I didnt even have to hit my draw.
If someoney stays the pot builds and I have rather easy decisions later on (I hit my draw...bet. I miss everything and I can easily lay the hand down).

Btw one thing I forgot that at some point I realised was harming my play alot (experienced players will laugh at me now ^^):
I was afraid to push. I didnt even notice this for a long time, but I would avoid every situation where I had to put it all in.
But in poker you have to take chances...if I know I'm a favorite, even if its not a huge edge, I cant be afraid to put it all in.

Often tight players feel like they want to lose nearly no money and only make money (at least thats what I thought when I started playing).
Play only the premium hands that are huge favorites to win. Fold all other hands. How can that not be profitable?

But you have to risk money in poker. Being able to put in money and not be scared is a huge factor, you have to abuse fold equity.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

trying to reraise the raiser more on the turn and river when I think that they're trying to steal.

Against typical, passive opponents who won't laydown a lukewarm hand this can be a disaster. Will be a good learning experience though

Another disasterous session has just ended.

I am not super-duper tight, by the way. I try to vary my game at the moment, raising in position with suited conns, small pairs, and sometimes with wacky things as well.

I am not afraid to push, either. I just lost a buy in by pushing the flop with AK on a board of A8 something. Opponent had a pair of 8's. Earlier on, I folded QQ when an ace flopped and someone raised the turn. The pot was won by another dude holding 88, to wn with a pair of 8's. When I play conservatively I seem to be laying down the best hand, and when I play aggressively I get beat.

Yesterday, for another example of pushing, I raised PF with 77. I think a couple of people called. Flop came down AA7. Wow, fantastic. I raised, got re-raised and pushed. Don't remember what the turn was, but the river was an ace. Dude had AK. Maybe I push too much? How could you not push with that flop, though?

Yeah, just a couple of isolated examples, ... maybe. Could be some evil voodoo hex put on me. I think I have a lot of enemies out and about.

I don't think I'll need to look at my bankroll anyhow, 'cause in another 15 sessions, at this rate, I'll get a message from Paradise saying that my account is at less than 10 bucks.

I don't want to be my old miserable (obstreperous, I believe, Biondino aptly used), slightly melodramtic self, but at this very moment, I cannot help thinking that this is the beginning of the end of my poker "career". I can't even beat $10 NL anymore. (Playing a la AOK's advice I was up to 15 BB/100 after 15,000 hands, remember). I just can't play at all. Pisses me off. I must be a poker dyslexic or something. I'll be back at it tomorrow, though. Good money after bad, I think the expression is.

Anyhow, you know I'm moving again?

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Yesterday, for another example of pushing, I raised PF with 77. I think a couple of people called. Flop came down AA7. Wow, fantastic. I raised, got re-raised and pushed. Don't remember what the turn was, but the river was an ace. Dude had AK. Maybe I push too much? How could you not push with that flop, though?

this is a dream situation. obviously you want to play for stacks in this situation every time. villain is chasing 5 outs at this point, and in the long run, you will be way ahead.

Originally Posted by Jiggus

Originally Posted by Warpe

Raise more...a lot more.

Why would you raise if you know you'll be called no matter what?

Change Tables bub. If you know you're going to be called anyway, move tables, change your betting. I bet they are seeing a pattern. DO you raise out of Position? Do you raise with less than Mid-Premium hands? Do you always just 3x+1x limper bet? change it up brother.

And don't be so harsh on the answers that you get from others. you asked for their advice.

Germier

Update pls

yeah, we need weekly updates along with changes/things you have implemented into your play

Originally Posted by Jiggus

I am not afraid to push, either. I just lost a buy in by pushing the flop with AK on a board of A8 something. Opponent had a pair of 8's. Earlier on, I folded QQ when an ace flopped and someone raised the turn. The pot was won by another dude holding 88, to wn with a pair of 8's. When I play conservatively I seem to be laying down the best hand, and when I play aggressively I get beat.

Yesterday, for another example of pushing, I raised PF with 77. I think a couple of people called. Flop came down AA7. Wow, fantastic. I raised, got re-raised and pushed. Don't remember what the turn was, but the river was an ace. Dude had AK. Maybe I push too much? How could you not push with that flop, though?

It's hard to stay patient with you when you're not getting it, dude. Why on earth did you push that AK? NEVER GO BUST WITH A PAIR. You'll make most aces with worse kickers fold and you'll only get called by hands that beat you. You have to be unafraid to push, sure, but you have to push at the right times otherwise you're fucked.

I am also worried but the fact you don't explain what happened in this hand - it matters whether you pushed over a bet or a raise, it matters if you had position or not. Personally I can't see how it's ever a good move to push this flop unless one of you is short-stacked and pre-flop raises and re-raises created a swollen pot, and even then, it's not a push as such, it's basically a value bet. If he re-raised you on the flop, then that means SLOW DOWN rather than throw the kitchen sink at someone repping a monster.

Your QQ fold was the right move - why are you beating yourself up about it? And the 77 hand - it's a bad beat! You WANT this to happen, and really, this should be second nature by now. I'm a bit worried it isn't, to be honest.