Win/Loss against regulars

Here's a noob question: how well should I be doing against the regs in my poker room that play at my level? I've played about 40k hands at NL10 and just moved my fat br up to NL25. At NL10, I felt like I was at least as good as every player I sat down at a table with.

At NL25, there are a few regs that really give me fits. I just HATE getting involved in hands with them. They outplay me preflop, postflop -- it just sucks. But, I can still win overall if only one of them is at my 6-max table.

I know about table selection, and it is righteous, but how do you get better without facing off against someone reasonably good? And at higher limits, won't I have to deal with some good players at my table? How many?

If I get enough HH's against someone, I can work with PT to develop some exploitive strategy to attack him with. Which brings up another question: is every style of play exploitable, if you know their tendencies and they don't vary their play?

I guess I'm asking how often at low levels I should be playing against a player I know is better than I am or whose style gives my style major headaches. In 6-max at NL100 or NL200, don't you have quality players at nearly every table? Eventually, I will have to be +EV with the regs, right? So how should I tailor my game and learning now to be able to cope when I move up?

Attack the regs? Or avoid them?

do to them what you don't like done to you

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

do to them what you don't like done to you

OK, spenda, I am super-aggressive with whatever opening hands I decide to play (I'm 31/17 at loosest, about 24/15 at tightest, with TAF > 4.5 for all sites/levels), but when I find that rare someone who's even more aggressive than me, I have trouble. Should I get more and more aggressive? 3-barrel with air? cr/rr with anorexic values? I know it should be +EV if the villain's doing it, but it doesn't feel like sound poker. I usually tighten up so that I can be the aggressor on a higher % of hands, but I am not quite sure what else to try.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

do to them what you don't like done to you

This quote made me a much better player and I think he means to put yourself in villain's position and think about the last thing you would want to happen. This concept applies so often and can change the way you think about hands, opponents, etc. Think about what loose players would hate to happen to them. Like getting 3-bet light, etc. Make sure to stay on their left so you can have position on them as well...that makes things so much easier/better. Put them to tough decisions that LAGGs hate to be in. Of course if the reg isn't a LAGG, then adjust again and rethink of what they'd hate to happen pre and post. BTW, you are pretty loose at lower stakes, is that working out for you?

OK, spenda, I am super-aggressive with whatever opening hands I decide to play (I'm 31/17 at loosest, about 24/15 at tightest, with TAF > 4.5 for all sites/levels)

Well, theres your problem.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OK, spenda, I am super-aggressive with whatever opening hands I decide to play (I'm 31/17 at loosest, about 24/15 at tightest, with TAF > 4.5 for all sites/levels)

Well, theres your problem.

I've just moved up to 10nl (1k hands so far, not much) and my stats are fairly close to Robb's.

As I've been playing, I've been looking at those numbers and thinking that those are pretty high compared to what I see from posters who appear to be successful, but I've had a hard time convincing myself to tighten up.

The issue for me is that I've found that a large majority of the players I run into fold far too easily. I could tighten up and only play that hands that I "should" play, but then I feel like I'd be missing out on a good number opportunities.

I've found that by playing "too much" that I can take advantage of others' weaknesses.

First, these players will nearly always fold to a reasonable flop bet if they missed.

Then, as they catch on to the fact that I'm playing too many hands they'll look for a chance to catch me. They won't, however, do this with anything. I've found that people will take two routes to try and bust me, either they will start to stack me with almost anything (usually TPTK or better, sometimes a lower pair), or they will keep folding until they hit a nut-type hand. As long as I can identify which way a player wants to break me I know how big of a hand I need to be involved in a big pot. So far at this level I've been good at figuring out which route (almost) each player is taking.

The other benefit of how I play is that it's far easier to get some good action when I do catch a nut hand. Again, people are always doubting me.

I also realize that my style would be easy to exploit by someone who knew exactly what I'm doing, but very few of these players do.

So, if my bankroll allowed, if I were to also move up to 25nl, I may run into the same problem as Robb, having more players able to see what I'm doing.

My question, finally, is it better to play "incorrectly" at this level when it helps to exploit my opponents weaknesses (this is what poker is all about, right?) or to play "correct" (because that's what I'll need to do on other levels) and miss out on chances to take all the small pots left to be stolen and build the image that will get me callers when I have the nuts?

playing "correctly" is exploiting your opponents weaknesses the best way you can, period. It is not starting hand charts, or any other generic bit of advice, it is beating the players at your table for the most possible.

If that means opening with ATC on the button, then so be it.

That seems obvious to me as well, but then you see comments like euph's that playing that loose is a problem.

I was making the point that playing that way can be (from my small sample) profitable if played that way for the right reasons.

My question was more about my development as a player more than my methods of beating my current stakes.

Am I hurting myself in the long run by playing this way now?

Should a be willing to play a style that will make me less money now in exchange for setting up good habits for the future?

Originally Posted by Robb

OK, spenda, I am super-aggressive with whatever opening hands I decide to play (I'm 31/17 at loosest, about 24/15 at tightest, with TAF > 4.5 for all sites/levels), but when I find that rare someone who's even more aggressive than me, I have trouble. Should I get more and more aggressive?

1) these stats are more loose than aggressive. Against these players mix to 24-20-4.5 and see how they cope
2) sit to their left, and abuse position!

The regs give you fits because they are generally playing a tighter range than you are and thus you are fighting the uphill battle that is giving up an equity advantage PF.

Tighten up, stop calling and start 3betting (OOP with the top of your calling range and in position with most of your calling range). Apply pressure onto their hands, force them to make the decisions, trust me, they'll make mistakes, it's why their regs at $25nl and not $600nl.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OK, spenda, I am super-aggressive with whatever opening hands I decide to play (I'm 31/17 at loosest, about 24/15 at tightest, with TAF > 4.5 for all sites/levels)

Well, theres your problem.

Here's PT's summary of my last 20k hands (6-max, btw):

NL10 (15.9k hands) 8.7 BB/100 (4.3 ptBB/100)
NL25 (4.1k hands) 15.9 BB/100 (7.9 ptBB/100)

Both lines are 24/14 with TAF (postflop) at 3.8. So I was mistaken on the TAF, but very close on the rest (posted at work, away from PT). What's the problem? Should I be winning more? Aggressing less? Playing tighter?

I respect your commentary eupho, but it's a bit vague on the precise problem. I'm having a ton of fun being a winning poker player (about 5 ptBB/100) over the last 38k hands. I've built a little br and moved up a level.

Edit: My UTG stats are 14/8 while my Button stats are 35/21. I've been working on positional play, and in general I think I outplay the villains postflop when I have position. Definitely true at NL10, and I'm working on it at NL25. Win rates are very good for both CO and Button.

attack the regs with a positional advantage and a bit of deception. if you normally play something one way, change it up every now and then.

if someone is giving you fits by calling/raising your cbets too often, then you have a few routes to combat it. Tighten up pf, which means you will have a better hand when you put in a bet on the flop. Or you can adjust your cbetting %/range. check behind with the A on an A high flop every now and then as well as some missed flops. put them on a range and bet the flops that they don't want you to bet. bet the turns that look really bad to their range vs your perceived range.

if they arent thinking that much then just tighten up a bit and hammer them with solid value while still lagging it up against the rest of the weak players at the table.

your winrate looks really good, even though it is a small sample. are there that many regs at your stakes that are giving you trouble?

Originally Posted by pgil

your winrate looks really good, even though it is a small sample. are there that many regs at your stakes that are giving you trouble?

At NL10, no, most regs give me money, not trouble. At NL25, there are 3-4 guys I know of that cause me problems. If I'm quad-tabling, I can usually avoid them, but they multitable, too. So I have one of them at one of my tables, on avg. And I'm sick of playing like a pussy against them, dammit.

BTW, thanks for the advice above - very cool post. Will do. Hope the win rate stays high over a BIG sample :P

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

The regs give you fits because they are generally playing a tighter range than you are and thus you are fighting the uphill battle that is giving up an equity advantage PF.

The regs that give me fits aren't the tight ones. The ones I'm talking about raise 20% + preflop and follow-up with TAF > 3. I know they're making plays, but I'm having trouble figuring out when to bust them.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Tighten up, stop calling and start 3betting (OOP with the top of your calling range and in position with most of your calling range). Apply pressure onto their hands, force them to make the decisions, trust me, they'll make mistakes, it's why their regs at $25nl and not $600nl.

OK, I can do this, but I am not sure what hands you are suggesting 3-betting? Small pp's? SC's? In position with an opener who given a std. raise, I should 3-bet w/ JTs? 22? ATs? 76s?

Finally, I'll admit this advice is probably right on target since, as I have gone from being a losing player 3 months ago to becoming a winning players in the last 10 weeks, I've tightened up (down more than 10% VP$P, with PFR about same) and gotten more aggressive. No doubt, I can do more profitably. But I'm not sure the PT numbers will come down much given how often I make steal attempts. Way too many multi-nits give away their blinds at these levels, and I play nearly 50% of my hands from the button when one of them is to my left which, thank God, is often.