Why play $10NL?

I've been playing online poker for just over a year, and I have done well at $2NL (35 bb/100 over 16k hands) and $5NL (12 bb/100 over 32k hands) levels.

Now let me just get this out of the way: I am getting crushed at $10NL. Now, I started out okay, then had a massive tilt day, then slowly and steadily climbed my way back to even from -$85. Then, over the last month, I have experience my first terrible, horrible, no good very bad run, and I've lose almost $100 in 4000 hands. I feel like I am playing solid poker, but everything that can possibly go wrong for me over the last month — at this level only, mind you — has, so this post is borne for the most part out of that frustration.

So my basic question is, apart from noble "If you can't play at X level you can't play at the next level" sentiments, why would I play at $10NL when (I play on Poker Stars):

-At $5NL, you can buy in for $10. At $10NL, you can also buy in for $10.

-$10NL is far, far tighter across all table types than both $5NL and $25NL, which seems odd.

-In $5NL, you can bet in .01 cent increments, whereas at $10NL you can only bet at .05 cent increments. I know that think might seem like a small thing, but I just like being able to size my bets precisely, and I also think that villains tend to respect bets that you have to type in, rather than just moving the slider.

-$10NL seems to be positively overrun with $2 nit pushers, who screw you coming and going: coming when they make you lay down everything that's not in the top top range unless love coin flips; going when they knock out all your action on the top top range, so your AA and KK wind up winning you $2.15 instead of, you know, more.

-The wait for a table with a +30% pip and a sub-60 hph is generally 2-3 times as long at $10NL

I would think that, considering the max buy-ins are the same, a player could build their bankroll just as fast at $5NL as they could at $10NL, and skip to $25NL.

Personally, I just feel like I've has so much bad luck at $10NL lately that I am incapable of playing my best cards, because I have a losing mindset. But I keep going back because, after reviewing a session and seeing that I played solidly and got my money in at the right time for the most part, I think to myself "This luck cannot continue," and I go play another 1,000 hands and lose another $10-$20 on shit that makes me want to put my fist through my computer.

Also, any advice on coping with a month-long "these guys must be cheating"-level losing streak would also be good.

1) 16K hands is a tiny sample.
2) 32K hands is a tiny sample.
3) It's perfectly natural for people to run MULTIPLE buy ins below EV for MONTHS at a time. I'm currently 6 full buy-ins below expected EV and that isn't even a whole lot.

Clearly you need to play more hands. Don't skip a level. I don't know about the 200BB buy in deal at stars cause I don't play there but saying you can win more at 5NL just cause you can buy in at 200BB doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe you can win more at 5NL because you can beat 5NL but can't beat 10NL. Post hands, get stats looked at, read articles and for God's sake don't base anything off of a sample that is less than 20% the size of what many online regulars play in a month.

This may sound silly, ut the fact that you routinely see bigger pots than you're used to at 10NL might increase your propensity to want to play for them, thus you often end up being slightly looser than you might want to be...I dunno, just guessing.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

I've been playing online poker for just over a year, and I have done well at $2NL (35 bb/100 over 16k hands) and $5NL (12 bb/100 over 32k hands) levels.

Now let me just get this out of the way: I am getting crushed at $10NL. Now, I started out okay, then had a massive tilt day, then slowly and steadily climbed my way back to even from -$85. Then, over the last month, I have experience my first terrible, horrible, no good very bad run, and I've lose almost $100 in 4000 hands. I feel like I am playing solid poker, but everything that can possibly go wrong for me over the last month — at this level only, mind you — has, so this post is borne for the most part out of that frustration.

Ifanstesamil sample sizes; these kinds of numbers are practically meaningless. Also, 10 buyins isn't fun, but it's not really that bad of a loss. Happens from time to time. Nothing to dwell on, or consider too much; sounds fairly routine. You say 16k at 2NL, and 32 at 5NL? Does that mean that's all you've played, or have played hands on other sites?

If you play better than your opponents, it's more profitable for you to have a deeper effective stack. It's acceptable to cold call more frequently preflop, with hands like small pairs, and suited connectors, and when you do make a strong hand yourself, you're going to get twice as much, if you're sitting twice as deep.

That said, 10NL is twice the money value of 5NL, and I think that even with the deep stack advantage I mention, you can't make more than twice as many bb/100 playing 5NL long term.

I've played all limits between 2NL and 100NL, accross different sites, and I do think Stars is one of the hardest sites to play on at the limits I've played, but to be honest, only slightly. There really isn't all that much in it. If you crush 5NL, you ought to crush 10NL, on this site, or another. I cashed out my online roll about a year ago, and I'm rebuilding it now, and I happen to be playing the Stars 10NL tables, and there's only a tiny increase in my opponents skill from Stars 5NL. It's so small as to be not worth considering. To do so risks hampering your decisions at the table.

You might have some adjustment tilt. I remember this happening to me when I moved up to Stars 10NL, coincidently. You're playing against exactly the same players.

Here's what I do when I take lose big enough to make me a wince a little: I move down. For me, a wincable amount is 5 buyins. Two days ago I dropped 5 buyins at 10NL. Now, I know I said 10 is routine, and it is, but if I'm honest with myself (an indispensible poker skill), I know I get a little twitchy if I loose 5, and being twitchy at the tables is -ev. So I lost 5, and I moved down to 5NL, planning to move back up when I made 1 back. Trouble is, I lost another 3, so according to the anti-tilt rules I have for myself, that busted me down to 2NL, where I lost another 4. I was still completely rolled for 10NL, but it's better to play lower when you've been loosing. I took an 11 buyin loss, and only lost $73, when I would have lost $110, had I stayed at 10NL. This realisation actually made me feel quite good about my poker decisions, and I didn't tilt at all. That's a pretty big win.

Honestly, there's no rush to climb the ranks, move down. Be honest with yourself; what amount do you not like to loose? Whenever you loose that amount, move down. If after moving down you still feel tilted, play the lowest limit available. The whole point of playing these low limits is practice. If you want to get rolled for 100NL, go get a job, it's a lot quicker than playing micros. If you want to practice poker, take it easy, and slow.

Maybe you might consider changing things up in a different way. Like go to another site, or play tourneys instead, for a day. Anything to snap you out of your groove. You want to do everything to preserve your groove when you're winning, and everything to interupt it when you are loosing.

To be honest though, you might just be bad at poker, and none of us are going to be able to tell you that from the information you've provided. Your quoted sample sizes are completely meaningless. We can help you little better if you post stats, they converge much quicker than win-rates.

Post some stats, we'll all take a look, and I bet there are some leaks, at least, but I wouldn't worry too much about "getting crushed" like you say you are, just as I wouldn't be too thrilled about having done so well at the lower limits. Also, post hands, and read other peoples posted hands, being sure to put the villain on a range on every street.

In summary: suck it up, it's nothing.

Originally Posted by Donachello

1) 16K hands is a tiny sample.
2) 32K hands is a tiny sample.
3) It's perfectly natural for people to run MULTIPLE buy ins below EV for MONTHS at a time. I'm currently 6 full buy-ins below expected EV and that isn't even a whole lot.

Clearly you need to play more hands. Don't skip a level. I don't know about the 200BB buy in deal at stars cause I don't play there but saying you can win more at 5NL just cause you can buy in at 200BB doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe you can win more at 5NL because you can beat 5NL but can't beat 10NL. Post hands, get stats looked at, read articles and for God's sake don't base anything off of a sample that is less than 20% the size of what many online regulars play in a month.

Yeah, I'm about 10 below EV on my *life-time* graph.

-Stop playing like a robot.
-Play the table conditions/players not the limit.
-Stop trying to play 11/9 or 13/10 or wtfe it is. Play whatever is optimal for that table.
-Practice better table selection. If there are more than 2 or 3 20bb stacks at your table, leave. It's really that easy. If its so much tighter, open up your stealing range OTB and in the CO and HJ.

I found 10nl to be one of the easiest levels to beat. I actually beat it for almost as much as I beat 2nl and 5nl for over a 50k hand sample. (I liked to take shots at 25nl and get burned ldo.) Just learn to adapt to table conditions and the players to your immediate right and left and you will be FINE. Play fewer tables, get reads on the regs you see a lot. I really doubt any of them are any good, they weren't less than a year ago when I was playing there. Have confidence in your ability and reads.

Study more and work harder.

I've been experiencing a very similar pattern since hitting 10nl at stars, but I have a slightly different perspective.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

I've been playing online poker for just over a year, and I have done well at $2NL (35 bb/100 over 16k hands) and $5NL (12 bb/100 over 32k hands) levels.

Now let me just get this out of the way: I am getting crushed at $10NL. Now, I started out okay, then had a massive tilt day, then slowly and steadily climbed my way back to even from -$85. Then, over the last month, I have experience my first terrible, horrible, no good very bad run, and I've lose almost $100 in 4000 hands. I feel like I am playing solid poker, but everything that can possibly go wrong for me over the last month — at this level only, mind you — has, so this post is borne for the most part out of that frustration.

So my basic question is, apart from noble "If you can't play at X level you can't play at the next level" sentiments, why would I play at $10NL when (I play on Poker Stars):

Originally Posted by Gafferland

-At $5NL, you can buy in for $10. At $10NL, you can also buy in for $10.

That one is kinda irrelevent.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

-$10NL is far, far tighter across all table types than both $5NL and $25NL, which seems odd.

This is true compared to 5nl, don't know about higher. But so what?

Originally Posted by Gafferland

-In $5NL, you can bet in .01 cent increments, whereas at $10NL you can only bet at .05 cent increments. I know that think might seem like a small thing, but I just like being able to size my bets precisely, and I also think that villains tend to respect bets that you have to type in, rather than just moving the slider.

Couldn't give a crap about this one, seriously, I can't see your perforance being effected dramatically by this.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

-$10NL seems to be positively overrun with $2 nit pushers, who screw you coming and going: coming when they make you lay down everything that's not in the top top range unless love coin flips; going when they knock out all your action on the top top range, so your AA and KK wind up winning you $2.15 instead of, you know, more.

This is true, but I just shove at them all the time with anything half decent / any pair (read dependent). No way I'm letting a small stack manipulate me. There's a great post on 2+2 about dealing with the shorties.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

-The wait for a table with a +30% pip and a sub-60 hph is generally 2-3 times as long at $10NL

This annoys the fuck out of me, but all the more reason to beat the damn limit and get out of here.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

I would think that, considering the max buy-ins are the same, a player could build their bankroll just as fast at $5NL as they could at $10NL, and skip to $25NL.

Maybe true, but I don't think it isw, and either way you're missing the point here.

So what is the point??????

$5nl is a piece of piss to beat. And you seem to be beating it, so well done to you. But what you've proven here (assuming variance isn't your sole problem) is that you don't know how to adjust to different players/table conditions. As you move up the stakes, better players will exploit your $5nl optimum play, and you need to be able to mix it up, improve your reads and not be sooooo obvious in what you're doing.

That is the main point in moving up one step at a time, you gradually learn to adjust your play.

At the moment you can beat the players at 5nl, and you have a set oif skills to take with you to the next stage. Before you move up to 25nl, wouldn't you like to have a whole new buch of skills from 10nl to take with you too?

I'm not trying to give you shit here, cos I'm in the same boat. Lost 3 buyins in 5 mins on Thursday (see tilt forum) and lost 3 buyins last night too. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes you have done nothing wrong, but I can't help thinking in my case I could have reduced some of theose losses. 5nl mentality will not beat 10nl.

Originally Posted by Gafferland

...because I have a losing mindset...

Change this. You will never win without first believing in yourself. The power of positive thinking. I'm serious. Take 3days, a week, two weeks, whatever you need off and forget about all of this.

Learn, learn, keep learning. Hopefully there are a few things in this thread you can pick up. This is a good start.

If you're, say, beating 5 NL at 8 PT/BB100 you should be at least BE at 10nl. It's not that much of a jump. No level is online. A lot of it is in our heads. I've been at 50nl since December and it's the second time I made the jump to 50, the first coming back in JUNE. JUUUNNNNEEE. Took me months to realize what I needed to do better to make the move. I took 1.5 months off, gave it another shot and have done well since. Now I'm focusing on moving up to 100 and the increased money tilts me (it always does) and throws off my betting schemes. Eventually, I'll get used to it. But it's taken MONTHS, tens of thousands of hands to be comfortable at 50 and beat it and to EVEN THINK about moving up. I know what it's like. I was -$175 during July and August while playing 25/50 and it was the most God awful frustrating cycle. Everytime I won a BI or two and got moving I'd blow it back, usually of my own accord. Sometimes the cards.

This is a process. Always be learning. Always be self assessing. There's always something you could be doing better. That's why we're playing 10 and 25 and 50 and not 1000 with Ivey & Co.

Originally Posted by DanAronG

That one is kinda irrelevent.

It's nothing like irrelevant. If you're beating the game, you have an equity edge over it, and you want to push that edge for as much money as possible. Do you want a percentage of 100 BB, or 200 BB? You want to make 100, or 200 with aces? Better players do better when the stacks are deeper, as a general rule.

You have much better potential for profit at Stars 5NL, than 10NL, in terms of ptbb/100, and so you shouldn't be surprised if you don't do as well. Though again, as a guesstimate, I don't think enough that you'd make twice the ptbb/100 at 5NL, and therefore there's more $/100 to be made at 10NL.

{Locked}

Less whining, more study.