Why???

Allright, I am trying to deviate a bit from my "textbook" poker. Help me please--Why did Asshat think he had this hand won? I had already played about 45 minutes and built (what I thought) was an extremely tight image. I min called on the flop--I am obviously playing low suited connectors or small to mid pockets.

I had him read like a book. I knew he didn't have much of anything. The river killed me.

I played this hand, in my mind, as I would play if I had flopped trips--just baiting baiting baiting and putting out bets for value.

Did he have a great read on me? Am I the asshat? Or is he the asshat, and I need to "sigh" go back to only getting involved in a hand when I have the nuts or near nuts?

I guess what I am saying is that I *try* to build a table image, play one way--then turn that on it's head. No good? Anyway, the hand is below.

JuNeve posts the small blind of $.10.
nahum78 posts the big blind of $.25.
HisStudent posts out of turn for $.35($.10 dead blind).

Daig: -- --
MrHound: -- --
JuNeve: -- --
nahum78: -- --
meph559510: -- --
Falkas: -- --
moiraine57: 2s 2c
RogerKDodger: -- --
HisStudent: -- --
RC Nelson: -- --

Pre-flop:

meph559510 calls. Falkas folds. moiraine57 calls.
RogerKDodger folds. HisStudent checks. RC Nelson
calls. Daig folds. MrHound calls. JuNeve folds.
nahum78 checks.

Flop (board: 3s 8d 3d):

nahum78 checks. meph559510 bets $1.25. moiraine57
raises to $2.50. HisStudent folds. RC Nelson folds.
MrHound folds. nahum78 folds. meph559510 calls.


Turn (board: 3s 8d 3d Qc):

meph559510 checks. moiraine57 bets $2.50.
meph559510 calls.

River (board: 3s 8d 3d Qc 6c):

meph559510 checks. moiraine57 bets $3. meph559510
calls.



Showdown:

moiraine57 shows 2s 2c.
moiraine57 has 2s 2c 3s 3d Qc: two pair, threes and deuces.
meph559510 shows 6h 8h.
meph559510 has 6h 8h 8d Qc 6c: two pair, eights and sixes.


Hand #6115093-4818 Summary:

$.85 is raked from a pot of $17.70.
meph559510 wins $16.85 with two pair, eights and sixes.

Your deuces are unimproved. You were beat on the flop. Him cold-calling your bets says he has you beat (anyone who would call here has you beat). I understand your frustration when someone just calls you down no matter what. But if you think your beat (cold-calls your flop bet when you're unimproved w/no draw) and out of position go into check/fold mode.

Just because he paired his six on the river doesn't mean he rivered you. Like I said, he had you beat on the flop with his 8833 to your 3322. If you had hit a 2 on the river this would be his post about how fishy your play was.

Originally Posted by Theeggman

Your deuces are unimproved. You were beat on the flop. Him cold-calling your bets says he has you beat (anyone who would call here has you beat). I understand your frustration when someone just calls you down no matter what. But if you think your beat (cold-calls your flop bet when you're unimproved w/no draw) and out of position go into check/fold mode.

Just because he paired his six on the river doesn't mean he rivered you. Like I said, he had you beat on the flop with his 8833 to your 3322. If you had hit a 2 on the river this would be his post about how fishy your play was.

I understand what you are saying that I was beat the entire time (except pre-flop). What I do not understand is the other player's thought process. I do not understand how you could think, "Wow, an extremely tight player is betting in to me on both the flop and the turn....But my Eights are the best hand here!!! Call!"

Unless the other player had a great read on me?

This sounds kind of whiny, and yes, I am whiny, but honestly, I want to stop this sort of stuff in the future.

And in my defense, at the stakes I am playing at, I have seen people call bets with nada. You have to lay out a bet on the flop, turn, and river sometimes to get them to lay it down. I understand this was a risky play I attempted. But I quite honestly do not understand why it did not work in this case. Unless he put me on a pure bluff, any hand he could have put me on on the flop and the turn were better than the hand he was holding. Comments?

Waiting until the turn to raise is a higher percentage bluff, IMO. That's what the fish would do with a 3, so they respond to it better. Activity on the flop is usually read as a made hand, but not the obvious hand. He probably thought you had 5's or 7's there because of the preflop limp. The only other thing that fits a tight player would be A3s.

Then again, you just have to show some players a hand. Bluffing is often a waste of time and chips at microlimits.

nice try, but that stuff rarely ever flies at those limits, especially when someone has any piece of the board. And if you're going to rep that hand, you will also need bigger bets at that level as well, 2 or 3 bucks isn't enough. A bet of 6 or 7 seems to work better. (But I fear you would have just lost more in this exact situation, he wasn't going anywhere)

Me in his shoes, I'm thinking:
1) why did I call that big PFR w/86s?
2) I wonder if he has a PP higher than the board?
3) Because I called his flop bet (which was weak - should've been at least pot-sized to say "overpair") I think he's got AQ or AK which didn't hit.
4) I know he doesn't have a 3 with that PFR.
5) I've got top pair so I'll call down to see if he has the overpair I fear.

Your turn bet was also weak. You were willing to put in $2.50 pre-flop so a $2.50 turn bet says you're still drawing. Pop it for at least $5 if not $10. That might get him to let go fearing the Q.

IF he's thinking anything at all, it's that you have AK.

It's that simple. For no reason other than the flop hit you and you're not slow playing.

-'rilla

if you're bluffing, you need to be aggressive. Need to raise more than a minraise on the flop. Need to pot the turn.

I don't like trying to get this pot at all though. Here are my reasons.

-For all you know, he has the three.
-The pot was tiny.
-Your hand is probably not best.
-He bet the flop, meaning he likes his hand or he's bluffing.
-He called your raise, meaning he probably isn't bluffing.

This pot is just not worth going after, beyond a flop raise, and even then I don't do that. If you raise preflop, there is enough in the pot to then go for a steal on the flop. But right now you've committed 25 cents to this pot, and you're probably behind against someone who obviously likes his hand a decent amount. You're just not in a good position to get this pot.

I'm sorry, but that's a very poorly played hand. You severely overplayed a weak holding and paid for it. You made weak bluff bets on both the turn and river. Good value bets to keep the guy with an 8 in, but of course you had dick all and were trying to fold him. Terribly played hand IMO.

Originally Posted by evman150

I'm sorry, but that's a very poorly played hand. You severely overplayed a weak holding and paid for it. You made weak bluff bets on both the turn and river. Good value bets to keep the guy with an 8 in, but of course you had dick all and were trying to fold him. Terribly played hand IMO.

Okay, so I played terribly in your humble opinion. This is the beginner's forum. So what are your corrective action measures?

Please, address the following questions regarding the hand in specific:

-Wrong to limp in with low pockets? I tend not to think so, because the implied value is so high, but that's me.
-The flop comes down, and it doesn't hit me--but does it hit him is the question?
-You say I made good value bets to keep him in. Let me ask a potentially newbie/stupid question. I played this hand AS IF I HAD MADE MY HAND. Isn't that what a bluff/semi-bluff is? If an opponent had made this bet against me, alarm bells would have been going off in my head. He/she is betting JUST ENOUGH for me to think about calling. A massive overbet screams (to me), I DON'T HAVE IT! A bet for value screams (to me) this person has a better hand than I do!

Maybe I am a retard in your mind, but hey, give me some credit for a thought process.

This brings me back to my original thought: don't attempt to get someone off a pot at the .10/.25 limit...people will believe their midpair/non-nuts will hold up till the cows come home..........

In other words, with a tight table image, how could I have knocked him off this hand on the flop and turn? Granted, I did not raise pre-flop, but that flop probably would not have helped anyone who raised pre-flop unless they had a pair.

I just thought it was a mistake to go all in or massively overbet....like I said, to me, all in or massive overbet screams "I do not want a call here." Unless your opponent has already shown he is willing to tango with you and call your all-in.

And, to respond to previous people, how is a bet that is 8+xBB weak? What would a strong bet be? Especially since everyone limped pre-flop? I thought I was semi-close to overbetting as it was. No?

Please school me. I could use some help. I have turned a $25 deposit into $150, but seem to be stuck there....but it seems the further I stray from my "bet the nuts, fold everything else strategy" the more I lose...

-Wrong to limp in with low pockets? I tend not to think so, because the implied value is so high, but that's me.
-The flop comes down, and it doesn't hit me--but does it hit him is the question?
-You say I made good value bets to keep him in. Let me ask a potentially newbie/stupid question. I played this hand AS IF I HAD MADE MY HAND. Isn't that what a bluff/semi-bluff is? If an opponent had made this bet against me, alarm bells would have been going off in my head. He/she is betting JUST ENOUGH for me to think about calling. A massive overbet screams (to me), I DON'T HAVE IT! A bet for value screams (to me) this person has a better hand than I do!

No it's not wrong to limp with low/mid pockets. It's the optimal strategy. You should not care if the flop hit him or not. That is your mistake. You have 22. The flop misses you. You know have the worst hand. Fold to any bet. Don't play guessing games. If the preflop raiser bets on the raggedy flop and you think he has AK, fold anyway. He is entitled to the pot when you miss. All guessing is going to do is cost you money. With a hand like 22, hit it or get the hell out of the hand.

Value bets are meant for people to call. You don't makes bets equal to value bets as a bluff. Sure a sophisticated player may read you as a value bettor and may fold, but at Party NL25 you are not playing against sophisticated players. Value bets get called. Reasonable bets get called. Overbets get called. EVERYTHING gets called. Go after them with a hand, SHOW them hands. And take their money.[/quote]

Low PP are probably the most straight forward hand to play.
Limp with them to unraised pot.
Fold if you dont hit the set

Its usually not worth to try to buy the pot with them

Set it or forget it. SImple.

Thanks for the replies, guys. You all brought me back to what I knew already--if you ain't got it, fold it..

I'm just getting all Phil Hellmuth over here, I guess, lol. I'm indignant not so much that I lost, but that he called me with what he had. What makes me angry is that I knew what he had--figured him for crappy top pair or two overcards.

I guess what I am saying is that I tried to take my game to the next level--instead of only thinking about what I had, I tried to think about what I had, what he had, and representing a hand to him. I thought I did that successfully. I thought about what I had--knew approximately what he had--and tried to rep like I had his hand beat by betting as if I had his hand beat.

Oh well, no more attempted fancy moves for me for a while, lol.

I dont think its the fancy moves, its the fancy moves in the wrong sitautions. Without a preflop raise, you can only define ur hand so much.

The problem with being tricky is that you have to be able to sell the whole shebang. Furthermore, as a seller you need a buyer for ur product. If no one can undersatnd ur product, no one will buy it and you will fail. You must keep in mind who you are selling ur bluff too. If you dont, you will get called down regardless of ur selling abilities.

Dont fault ur game becuase it didnt work at one point. For all you know this move might have worked against a completely different player in a completely situation. The hard part is finding the situation, not perfecting the move.

ok, i think this might help you too.

He is an idiot. You did play the hand like you had the 3. You played it well if you actually had the 3 (except maybe bet a little more). But you don't have the 3, so you have to light up a bright sign telling him you have it so he'll fold. your bets are reasonable so he'll call. your next problem is that even if you light up a blazing bright sign, most players at this level are practically blind.

At those limits no one is folding top pair HU!

Exactly - "crappy" top pair is a myth at $25, and how you can say that when you had 22 really does show you're getting your judgement seriously skewed.

You gave him too much credit. He min bet for UTG - weak weak weak. He knew you almost certainly didn't have 33, and with his 8 knew it was less likely you had an eight. He's thinking low pair or overcards, as mentioned above. He calls you through the hand, not cos he's skilled, but because he's nervous, and because you don't threaten him with your smallish bets (once you've raised to 2.50 on the flop AND THEN THE SAME AMOUNT on the turn proved you didn't have a queen.

He had you on the river anyway - I don't think you could have done anything. Perhaps he wondered if ou held 66, but fuck it, he's got two pair, worth betting considering the pot.

So what you did wrong is a) overprioritise the player rather than the cards and b) play limp-wristed - at this level if you're not going to fold, you need to whack the calling stations with bigger bets (it doesn't matter that it was 8xBB - it's still only a couple of bucks in real life!).

The best thing you did with this hand is post it here. These posts may not all be "right", but they'll make you think about why you did what you did.

at that level i doubt there are very many people that even know what "tight" is. I play micro limits and most of the time it seems more like a chat room with cards. I dont worry about my table image at all, i just play my game.

Personally with this hand i would have folded it anywhere except limping in late.

i think you are missing the point entirely.

you keep talking about how you built up this extremely tight table image.

what in the world makes you think anyone at your table is paying one iota of attention to your table image?

this is $0.10/$0.25 guppy poker. the only thing anyone pays attention to is their own cards.

stop bluffing and start value betting your nut hands.

and stop trying to deviate from textbook poker. if you can't beat the game by playing proper poker, what will playing improper poker accomplish?

ChezJ

Wow! Certainly got my advice than I anticipated with the original post.

Again, thanks for all replies. I think the best advice I got was from someone who said there was no bad plays/good plays, just good/bad situations to use them in. That was a pearl of wisdom.

Again, I am winning some money playing poker ...some people move up when they are looking for more challenge. I decided to experiment with some different plays.

I understand that my play failed, but didn't understand why. From all the posts, mystery solved.