Who wants to learn about ranges?

This is the typical IRC discussion where I randomly pick out a newbie and make them do something.

<@spoonitnow> animal_chin, what do you play?
<animal_chin> the 10nl
<animal_chin> uhh ak, aq and tt+? maybe 9s?
<@spoonitnow> What about if he opens in HJ instead?
<@spoonitnow> If his attempt to steal is 15?
<animal_chin> 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo
<animal_chin> is what poker ev gives me lol
<@spoonitnow> I'm asking you, not Poker EV
<@spoonitnow> And attempt to steal doesn't record anything about the HJ
<animal_chin> yeah
<@spoonitnow> Though I said that since it does indicate some amount of positional awareness
<@spoonitnow> So what do you think?
<animal_chin> uhh im saying if he isnt a complete fool he opens atleast 44+ and AJ+ along with some suited connectors
<animal_chin> and kq
<@spoonitnow> Well we're not really concerned with if he's a fool or not, we just want to know his range
<@spoonitnow> Well that sounds fairly reasonable
<@spoonitnow> What if he opens in HJ, we call on button, the flop comes K83r and he c-bets and we have 65s with a backdoor flush draw, what do you think his range is then if he c-bets 65% over 2000 hands?
<@spoonitnow> And just for discussion's sake say he c-bet 7bb into 9.5bb
<animal_chin> lots of stuff i say he bets 88 and 33, 99-qq and ak, kq, aa and some air
<@spoonitnow> Well you just said he doesn't have 33
<animal_chin> ohh
<animal_chin> you are correct
<@spoonitnow> And what is "some air"
<@spoonitnow> So you're saying for value AK, KQ, AA, KK, 88, maybe 33 if we're a little off with his preflop open, as bluffs probably AJ/AQ, 44, 55, 66 and 77
<animal_chin> some air is probably any suited connector he raise preflop, stuff like AJ or AQ and maybe some low pocket pairs (which i know isnt air, but yeah)
<@spoonitnow> He didn't raise any suited connectors
<animal_chin> why not
<@spoonitnow> Because you said so
<animal_chin> (10:44:46 PM) animal_chin: uhh im saying if he isnt a complete fool he opens atleast 44+ and AJ+ along with some suited connectors
<@spoonitnow> Just testing you, keep going
<animal_chin> his range is probably less suited connectors for the cbet though because he doesnt raise those too much i would say
<@spoonitnow> For value, AK, KQ, AA, KK, 88, maybe 33 if we're a little off with his preflop open, as bluffs probably AJ/AQ, 44, 55, 66 and 77, and a couple SCs
<animal_chin> yes
<@spoonitnow> He bet 7 into 9.5
<@spoonitnow> Can we raise to 20bb on a bluff profitably?
<ihategnomes> spoon: you're good at forcing people to logically analyze a hand
<animal_chin> well ak -kq are 32 hands, aa, 88, 33 are 24 hands. aj, aq are 32 hands and 44, 55m 66m 77 and a couple of scs are lets say 40 hands
<@spoonitnow> Actually AK and KQ are just 24 hands
<@spoonitnow> There's a K on the board
<animal_chin> but i think there are also qq-99 that he best in there
<animal_chin> ohh very true
<animal_chin> forgot about that
<animal_chin> *bets
<@spoonitnow> AA is 6, 88 is 3, 33 is 3
<@spoonitnow> But anyway
<@spoonitnow> You did good for your first time putting someone on a range in a spot that matters
<animal_chin> but there are qq-99 that he might not let go of
<@spoonitnow> You're right animal_chin, get a piece of paper and a pen and start figuring it out
<animal_chin> Ok so he is betting 65% of his hands. He always bets AA, AK, KQ,88 and 33 thats 51% of cbet range. He bets QQ-99 maybe 75% of the time so thats 25% of his range. The rest is air (AK, AQ, 44-77, crappy suited connectors that he would lay down) thats 25% of his cbet range. He will fold probably around 40-60% of his range (maybe he folds kq sometimes, and maybe he continues with qq some others) if i would have to say its probably right at 50%. So reraising is profitable

So who agrees with animal_chin and who thinks he's off?

I wouldn't raise.

What do we represent by raising?

This is a dangerous road.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

What do we represent by raising?

You shouldn't worry about playing a line that makes sense, but only if your opponent will fold. We need to know if our opponent is looking at our line and seeing if it makes sense or if he's just going to fold to any raise if he misses.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by XTR1000

What do we represent by raising?

You shouldn't worry about playing a line that makes sense, but only if your opponent will fold. We need to know if our opponent is looking at our line and seeing if it makes sense or if he's just going to fold to any raise if he misses.

Ya I know. Yet we should be aware, that in every hande play there are two ranges to consider.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

What do we represent by raising?

Personally, I could have AA, KK, AK, KQ, 88 or 33 here.

So who agrees with animal_chin and who thinks he's off?

i would fold. just because his stat is 15% att to steal, doesn't mean he's stealing 15% of the time. for the most part, he's just playing his decent hands in late position. if we're using a hud, a look at his fold to flop raise stat would help, given the # of hands, in determining the profitability of reraising. another factor is what type of hands does he stack off with? if he will go all-in with top pair, there's no point in reraising as he's stacking AA, any K he raised with, and maybe QQ,JJ if he can't let go of them. but, if he can let go of TP against a 3xrr on a dry board, then the play becomes more profitable.