When playing against calling stations....

Have a pair of hands I want people to take a look at. Both are against the same player, who after 30 hands was at 33/7/3.5. I don't have super strong reads on the guy, but I got the feeling that he was a very weak player who is easily spooked by scare cards and is otherwise a calling station.

For hand #1 I'm mostly concerned as to whether or not I made the right call. For hand #2 I'm wondering if I did the right thing to extract the most value out of him.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($0.42)
Button ($2.28)
SB ($2.11)
BB ($2.84)
UTG ($0.82)
UTG+1 ($2.15)
MP1 ($2.04)
Hero (MP2) ($2.58)
MP3 ($2.43)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
3 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, Button calls $0.08, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.19) 4, A, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.12, Button calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.43) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.24, Button raises to $2.08 (All-In), Hero calls $1.84

Total pot: $4.59 | Rake: $0.30





Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($0.40)
MP2 ($2.11)
MP3 ($2.07)
CO ($2.78)
Button ($0.98)
SB ($2.14)
BB ($2.04)
Hero (UTG) ($4.62)
UTG+1 ($2.32)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.14, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.32, MP2 calls $0.18

Flop: ($0.67) 4, A, 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

Turn: ($0.71) K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

River: ($0.75) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.46, MP2 calls $0.46

Total pot: $1.67 | Rake: $0.11

Hand 1 is fine I guess.

Hand 2- My god why are you letting him see cards for 2 cents. reraise flop, reraise turn, get the chips in there. You are giving great odds to let him suck out a flush on you. Very badly played hand.

first off 33/xx/3.5= calling station? not so sure about that

second off if he IS a calling station then hand one is an insta-fold. looks to me like he either A) slowplayed one street before he made his move with his flush or B) misplayed an A rag (namely A eight) and panicked about the three-toned board so overpushed. I know that other ace rags that you beat are possibilities but i'm not expecting them from a calling station betting 10x's the pot.

as far as second hand i couldn't decide which of these faces so i decided to go with all of them. i don't mean to sound like a jerk but i HOPE he sucked out on you here. you let a dream situation slip through your fingers

I can find a fold on hand 1 but it doesn't completely suck at these stakes.

Hand 2 is totally butchered. Bet, bet, bet and build a pot.

hand 2 is sooo bad

BET

Hand 1- Not the easiest fold ever but still a makable one.

Hand 2- I used to have this problem too.
I got him to call my AA (yes), I hit my set (holy shit) don't want to lose him now so I just call his min bet, ok no diamond (whew) just call to keep him going, damn diamond on the river (well I gotta bet sometime, flush be damned).

So now the result is one of two things... I just paid off a small flush or I did not get near the value out my set as I should have. Don't be afraid to bet/raise for fear of losing someone. I'm not saying all in the flop but you have to build a big pot to try to get it in on the turn/river. You will make more in the long run by building a big pot PF/Flop than slowplaying this.

And those stats could just be a couple good but not great hands OOP or in the SB and he looks aggresive when he is in a pot. 30 hands not a whole lot to judge on, have you seen him show anything down yet?

hand 1 probably should of pushed earlier and you really lost equity on hand 2 push push and push with aces heads up gonna come out on top more than lose

Hand 2 - Just bet! If he folds you werent going to make any more anyway!!
Just pump it up a bit and see what he does!

Hand 1 he had AJo with no clubs, and Hand 2 he had queens with no diamonds.

I see what you guys are saying about hand 2, but in this particular instance I think I played it right to get the most value out of him. I ruled out the diamond draw on hand 2, because that's just not how this player played in previous hands with me. Whenever he's thought he had the best hand he'd bet hard, and whenever he wasn't sure if he had the best hand he'd make very tiny probe bets. I didn't put him on diamonds because if he had had the chance at drawing to the nuts he'd of bet harder. These tiny bets made me think that he had a pocket pair that just didn't compete with mine, so I was trying to let him draw to a better one.

It ain't a play I'd make most of the time, but with this player it's a different story.

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

I ruled out the diamond draw on hand 2, because that's just not how this player played in previous hands with me. Whenever he's thought he had the best hand he'd bet hard, and whenever he wasn't sure if he had the best hand he'd make very tiny probe bets. I didn't put him on diamonds because if he had had the chance at drawing to the nuts he'd of bet harder. These tiny bets made me think that he had a pocket pair that just didn't compete with mine, so I was trying to let him draw to a better one.

Important information to put in OP for true analysis... IMO

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Hand 1 he had AJo with no clubs, and Hand 2 he had queens with no diamonds.

I see what you guys are saying about hand 2, but in this particular instance I think I played it right to get the most value out of him. I ruled out the diamond draw on hand 2, because that's just not how this player played in previous hands with me. Whenever he's thought he had the best hand he'd bet hard, and whenever he wasn't sure if he had the best hand he'd make very tiny probe bets. I didn't put him on diamonds because if he had had the chance at drawing to the nuts he'd of bet harder. These tiny bets made me think that he had a pocket pair that just didn't compete with mine, so I was trying to let him draw to a better one.

It ain't a play I'd make most of the time, but with this player it's a different story.

No, you made 50 cents off him after the flop while risking the 60 plus cents that was in pot already ( not even a pot sized bet ). Do you really think he was folding the Q's if you led out for a half pot sized bet? If so fine, you take the 60 cents and move on. You played this VERY bad and got lucky it still worked out.

Don't over think stuff at this level, hardly anyone you are playing is thinking at all. Get a good hand and BET,BET,BET.

Are you looking at the same hand I am, Blue? As far as I can tell, if we can actually rule out the flush draw then there was almost no reasonable hand he could have had that could top mine. If I'm wrong, I'll totally admit it but I just don't see how I was vulnerable to anything but a flush.

And I don't know for sure that he'd have folded, but since he had queens, I think there's a good chance he might have, especially with my re-raising his re-raise pre-flop.

Now mind you, I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle, but I think that in this specific situation I don't think I was vulnerable against anything on the flop provided we rule out the flush, which I did. I think the reason I ruled it out was his raise, and then calling my re-raise. It said to me that he had a big pair. And if my read was right (and it was), then I could afford to let him draw a bit. It might also add some deception, making him think that I was looking for a better hand too.

I really have no idea what you're trying to accomplish in H2. I've posted some doozies on here but that's by far one of the biggest WTF hands I've seen.

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Are you looking at the same hand I am, Blue? As far as I can tell, if we can actually rule out the flush draw then there was almost no reasonable hand he could have had that could top mine. If I'm wrong, I'll totally admit it but I just don't see how I was vulnerable to anything but a flush.

And I don't know for sure that he'd have folded, but since he had queens, I think there's a good chance he might have, especially with my re-raising his re-raise pre-flop.

Now mind you, I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle, but I think that in this specific situation I don't think I was vulnerable against anything on the flop provided we rule out the flush, which I did. I think the reason I ruled it out was his raise, and then calling my re-raise. It said to me that he had a big pair. And if my read was right (and it was), then I could afford to let him draw a bit. It might also add some deception, making him think that I was looking for a better hand too.

Actually a mistake on my part about the Q dropping, edited.

But how you think you got any value betting 2 cents until a third diamond pops out is beyond me. If you did think he had a big pocket pair, say kings, wouldn't the turn have been a good place to reraise? The key is bet for value so by the time the river comes he has given you most of his stack and he will call the rest off. You also cannot, no matter how strong your read is, say he isn't flush hunting and allow him to free cards.

Make it 20 cents on the flop at least, then 2/3 pot on turn. These types of plays will lose you money in the long run.

You actually made a good read and that is a great thing, but slow playing this slow is -EV. You are actually losing value ( and risking it all if your read isn't spot on and he flips a K-Q of diamonds on you )

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Hand 1 he had AJo with no clubs, and Hand 2 he had queens with no diamonds.

I see what you guys are saying about hand 2, but in this particular instance I think I played it right to get the most value out of him. I ruled out the diamond draw on hand 2, because that's just not how this player played in previous hands with me. Whenever he's thought he had the best hand he'd bet hard, and whenever he wasn't sure if he had the best hand he'd make very tiny probe bets. I didn't put him on diamonds because if he had had the chance at drawing to the nuts he'd of bet harder. These tiny bets made me think that he had a pocket pair that just didn't compete with mine, so I was trying to let him draw to a better one.

It ain't a play I'd make most of the time, but with this player it's a different story.

I'm glad you had such a small range of hands you put him on. Being able to determine that your opponent had a pocket pair smaller than KK and bigger than 88, but nothing else is amazing. Most players are only able to put their opponents on a broad range of hands and narrow that range based on how the hand develops. That range usually includes, in this situation, flush draws. You allowed those flush draws (not this particular hand, but those hands in these spots) to draw for a very cheap price. You also showed small probe bets allow for a cheap draw against you. If I played you, I'd make small probe bets with every draw now until you caught on. I'd also min bet other hands I'd like a cheap showdown with. He wanted a cheap showdown and you gave it to him.

Having said that, it still looks like you made a mistake. He called a far bigger bet on the river after 2 small bets on the flop and turn. What exactly were you representing? A terribly misplayed AA, KK, or AK or a flush. He should have folded. I'm not even sure what he thought you had that you'd 4-bet with and he'd beat. JJ? Not likely. He had no idea on the hand and would obviously have called bigger bets along the way. You lost some value on this hand.

Finally, if you are so certain of your read on the hand. Why post it? Pat yourself on the back, say nicely done, and move on.

this is from OP:

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Have a pair of hands I want people to take a look at. Both are against the same player, who after 30 hands was at 33/7/3.5. I don't have super strong reads on the guy, but I got the feeling that he was a very weak player who is easily spooked by scare cards and is otherwise a calling station.

couple of posts later:

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Are you looking at the same hand I am, Blue? As far as I can tell, if we can actually rule out the flush draw then there was almost no reasonable hand he could have had that could top mine. If I'm wrong, I'll totally admit it but I just don't see how I was vulnerable to anything but a flush.

And I don't know for sure that he'd have folded, but since he had queens, I think there's a good chance he might have, especially with my re-raising his re-raise pre-flop.

Now mind you, I don't disagree with what you're saying in principle, but I think that in this specific situation I don't think I was vulnerable against anything on the flop provided we rule out the flush, which I did. I think the reason I ruled it out was his raise, and then calling my re-raise. It said to me that he had a big pair. And if my read was right (and it was), then I could afford to let him draw a bit. It might also add some deception, making him think that I was looking for a better hand too.

AH?

Maybe it's ignorant of me, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be this terrified of flushes in hand 2. I raise 4xBB pre-flop under the gun, showing a lot of strength, and this guy re-raises to slightly less than twice that amount, and I re-raise him to more than twice his re-raise, which he calls with. What's the worst hand I'm really up against here, AK? Maybe a pair of nines? In either case, with that flop, I don't have to be worry about a flush draw unless we're talking about a runner-runner flush draw. And if it were AK, then he ought to be betting like a madman on the flop, if not on the turn.

No, those bets say to me that he's got a big hand that's scared of both the ace and the king. In terms of why would he not call the flop or turn bets when he called the river bet, well, I'm pretty sure that by that point I had made him think that I didn't have the ace or the king, and because I was betting less than the pot, he thought it was a good risk for him to call the bet. Had I bet that on the flop or the turn he probably would have folded.

As for how exploitable this makes me, I don't think so. If I thought this player was even remotely clever I wouldn't have played the hand like this.

To this I will make a couple points.... take them or leave them:

1. I have been reading Theory and Practice an it says In NL you not only have to think about this hand but also future hands against the table/villian. As was stated before, you have now shown the table how to draw against you (and make it look like they are not drawing) and that you may bet big into the pot on the river even when that draw card comes. If I were at that table (not necessarily the villian) I would be waiting till you show big strength PF and I had a good draw hand and go for it. The little I lose chasing would not compare to how much I would take if it came. The note I would have on you:
Bet 4-5x UTG/UTG+1 with stong hands JJ+, AQs+, if raised he will repop basically showing his hand with KK+, On a drawey board he will let me get away with min bets to keep me in the hand, when draw hits he may bet out good size commiting himself to my allin. (keep in mind this note would be there everytime you sat at my table... even three weeks down the road when you have forgotten all about this hand)

2. If you were so sure of yourself in this hand then there is no reason to post it. You basically got told by everyone that it was a questionable play then felt the need to defend your play because in this one instance it turned out to be correct. So yes, if you are looking at this ONE hand, GJ you owned him. But the way this is played will still get you into more trouble than not, especially when you get up in limits and better players. And against better players that remember what you are doing you just gave them a lot of information for relativley cheap.

3. You say this player is easily scared by over cards yet when there were two overcards and a possible flush that hit this guy still called a 3/5 pot bet. If he was willing to do that then I would think you could have extracted more from him. Your OP was asking if you extracted the most value from him and I think you did not. I think you could have extracted much more. And by this play, raising the flop, raising the turn, even if he folded out you got his money and didn't have to show how strong you were leaving a weak player guessing what he just folded QQ too. A good spot to put them in (again for future hands)

4. You got some really good advice from some really good players. If I were you I would take that advice and just know you played this one hand, against this one guy, at this one time correctly. There is no reason to try to defend your decisions.

5. If you want a true analysis of your hand, you need to include all relevant information. Such as, but not limited to, reads on villian-how he has played draws/PP in the past- why you are flatting the smallest bets in the world- why you chose to bet so much into the pot after the draw hit against a player that is scared of overs.

All that said, NH's sir.

Those are all fair points, lockpull. I wasn't trying to be a douchebag and make it sound like I played perfectly, but I get why defending myself at all can make it come across like that. So my fault.

EDIT: Let me add by asking a question: Let's assume for a second that I knew for a fact that he had QQ, but I wasn't 100% sure what he'd do on the flop or turn, but I had the feeling that to those two scare cards he may have folded. Should I still have bet out, or raised his piddly two-cent bet just to stick to the "aggressive, aggressive, aggressive" strategy purely on principle?

Assuming you know for a fact that villains have a single hand is most usually a pointless exercise, and very likely, counterproductive. Start thinking of villains hand as a range.
Also, do you really expect anyone to answer your question? You are already giving the answer in the question.

Originally Posted by Tyshalle

Let's assume for a second that I knew for a fact that he had QQ

We can't at least ake a guess that he ight have KK? 'cause if so you're stacking hi on the turn...that's the right play

also he clearly isn't scared by ANYTHING if he paid you off that uch on the river. He thought that you didn't have any ace any king or any two diaonds, so the fact that you didn't stack such a bad player looks like you DIDN'T get the best value on the hand

I'm pretty sure that by showing weakness on the flop and the turn he wasn't sure if I had a hand better than QQ, and he decided to call such a small raise on the river to look me up/keep me honest. I'm pretty sure had I went all-in he wouldn't have called, deciding instead that it was too much money to risk his stack on. Plus with that potential flush out there on the river, he very probably could have been scared off by an all-in bet after it looked like I had been drawing for two streets.

Look at it from his perspective. If you're dealt QQ and your opponent shows a lot of strength pre-flop but then checks the flop when an ace shows, you bet a very small amount and he merely calls, the turn comes, shows a king, he checks, you bet a very small amount, he merely calls again, what hand do you honestly put him on at this point?

is it possible to request that a certain thread get locked?

Tyshalle: did you ever use your token?