What's standard here? (Overpair vs. minraise on dry flop)

For what it's worth, I'm talking about 6max. I'll use 100nl for the example. Villain will be an unknown but will have been sitting long enough to notice that you have an aggro preflop image. You both have full stacks. Say you have QQ and raise utg to $4 and villain calls on the button. Flop comes J 7 2 rainbow. The pot is $9.50, you bet $8, and villain raises to $16. Is the standard play here to 3bet to like $32 and fold to a push or to call and bet/fold the turn?

depends on draws and board, situation on table....
without reads u can get clever and fold there or call/raise it and then complain on forums how total donk draw out on ur queens with J2 and u could neve fold to such a donk

I think, there aren't "standard play" in one pair hands 100BB deep. Cookie cutter play for TPTKish hands exist in something like 50-70BB deep and it's re-raising all-In.


In 100BB or more I'd call flop minraise and bet half pot on brick turn. The idea is to try win medium pot against tptk, give bad odds to draw and stop bluffs (if we don't how bluffy is the villain).

I'd 3bet/fold flop with good overpair almost never (in past I was doing it with various results). When I 3bet this board with "hand", it's always with intention of going to showdown. I balance this line by occasional 3betting air, when I think the flop raiser is trying challenge my c-bets but doesn't have balls to make real raise or 4-bet re-re-bluff Genitruc style. Typical low stakes opponent isn't that daring.

Originally Posted by Vrax

I think, there aren't "standard play" in one pair hands 100BB deep. Cookie cutter play for TPTKish hands exist in something like 50-70BB deep and it's re-raising all-In.


In 100BB or more I'd call flop minraise and bet half pot on brick turn. The idea is to try win medium pot against tptk, give bad odds to draw and stop bluffs (if we don't how bluffy is the villain).

I'd 3bet/fold flop with good overpair almost never (in past I was doing it with various results). When I 3bet this board with "hand", it's always with intention of going to showdown. I balance this line by occasional 3betting air, when I think the flop raiser is trying challenge my c-bets but doesn't have balls to make real raise or 4-bet re-re-bluff Genitruc style. Typical low stakes opponent isn't that daring.

Very good post

Originally Posted by crazycrazy

depends on draws and board, situation on table....

I gave these things in my example.

Originally Posted by Vrax

I'd 3bet/fold flop with good overpair almost never

Why? It seems to me that 3betting here and calling and betting the turn accomplish the same thing with the only difference being that 3betting the flop is cheaper. If he's bluffing he will fold to the 3bet. If he's not he is pushing or calling and trying to get the rest in later. Either way you aren't putting more money in the pot after you make either move. It seems like if you don't 3bet here but do 3bet sets/etc. that it is a dead giveaway to people who have payed attention long enough (granted it would probably take quite a while of paying attention to figure you out). I know you said you balance by sometimes 3betting air, but let's face it...that doesn't happen very often at all. It takes a particular type of opponent and you having a pretty decent read to do it.

well that depends on many things not just QQ and lower flop.
-who am i playing,r eads ,reads reads
-how deep he is
-what is he doing lately on the table
-stakes

for example if i think someone is raising his tp on flop then i call him and see turn... if someone is set camping then i can fold right to his minraise...

3betting flop is cheaper hm?
to me 3beting wihto verpair is bad for simple reason ur jsut putting much of ur stack with 1 pari after he alread shown some agression. if u 3bet his minraise thats putting like 40BB right there on the flop.. with ur another minraise on the flop its still around 30... and if u 3bet preflop with highpairs then u cant even think about 3betting flop.

Either way you aren't putting more money in the pot after you make either move

.

Built pot of $75, less than PSB behind and two streets of play OOP. Possible draw or TP drawing live against us. I just can't find here anything more reasonable than gritting the teeth and dropping the hammer.

If he's bluffing he will fold to the 3bet.

But if he's semibluffing, he'll be more inclined to gamb00l with two cards to come or go to the felt with top pair. If he makes that 4bet push with whatever draw he has, folding 65%+ equity in big pot will be huge mistake for us.

If turn bricks, villain's possible draw will lose a lot of value and chance of him pulling another semibluff raise will be much smaller. We still control the hand, but implied threat is slightly smaller and top pairs will most likely stick around for showdown (not for stacks but still fairly expensive).

It seems like if you don't 3bet here but do 3bet sets/etc. that it is a dead giveaway to people who have payed attention long enough (granted it would probably take quite a while of paying attention to figure you out)

I do 3bet sets, I also 3bet overpairs, sometimes even bottom pair, draws, air. I also folded overpair to single raise against certain opponents. But it's read dependent. Sometimes I 3bet-push, the other time I go for stack-a-donk. Bear also in mind, I play lower (50NL) and players on my stakes aren't the brightest bulbs in the room They try to pay attention, but they don't have any freaking idea how to counter this and they either start to setfarm and give me pot after pot or call off their stacks with top pairs.

On the site I play, there are lots of regulars, they have notes on me, I have played with them for a pretty long time and still they get pwnd for 5BB/100. So much for their attention lol

I let them have some of my small pots and c-bets, when I have nothing, just to make them think I play straightforward poker and respect their raises. But when I threat by 3betting flop, I often (not always) must materialise the threat I created by betting flop in first place.

Originally Posted by crazycrazy

well that depends on many things not just QQ and lower flop.
-who am i playing,r eads ,reads reads
-how deep he is
-what is he doing lately on the table
-stakes

look at my example please. villain is unknown (you can't have a spectacular read on everyone every time). we are both 100bb's deep. it is 100nl.

Originally Posted by crazycrazy

for example if i think someone is raising his tp on flop then i call him and see turn... if someone is set camping then i can fold right to his minraise...

and we are always able to put unknown villains on ranges that narrow right?

Originally Posted by crazycrazy

3betting flop is cheaper hm?
to me 3beting wihto verpair is bad for simple reason ur jsut putting much of ur stack with 1 pari after he alread shown some agression.

the discussion is about 3betting the flop vs. calling and leading the turn. 3betting is cheaper than calling and leading the turn. this is a fact. also, if you call and lead the turn you are still putting much of your stack in with 1 pair. are you telling me you always fold your overpairs to dry flop min-raises?

Originally Posted by crazycrazy

if u 3bet his minraise thats putting like 40BB right there on the flop.. with ur another minraise on the flop its still around 30... and if u 3bet preflop with highpairs then u cant even think about 3betting flop.

look at my example. there is no 3bet preflop.

Originally Posted by Vrax

Either way you aren't putting more money in the pot after you make either move

.

Built pot of $75, less than PSB behind and two streets of play OOP. Possible draw or TP drawing live against us. I just can't find here anything more reasonable than gritting the teeth and dropping the hammer.

If he's bluffing he will fold to the 3bet.

But if he's semibluffing, he'll be more inclined to gamb00l with two cards to come or go to the felt with top pair. If he makes that 4bet push with whatever draw he has, folding 65%+ equity in big pot will be huge mistake for us.

If turn bricks, villain's possible draw will lose a lot of value and chance of him pulling another semibluff raise will be much smaller. We still control the hand, but implied threat is slightly smaller and top pairs will most likely stick around for showdown (not for stacks but still fairly expensive).

ok i will change the flop to be j 7 2 cuz i meant to make it a dry flop. villain is not on a draw and is not semibluffing.

A min-raise isnt going to make me think I have the worst hand.
Not a big fan of 3-betting with a single pair...

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

A min-raise isnt going to make me think I have the worst hand.
Not a big fan of 3-betting with a single pair...

so you would rather call and lead the turn? please explain why since you are putting more money in the pot this way.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

A min-raise isnt going to make me think I have the worst hand.
Not a big fan of 3-betting with a single pair...

so you would rather call and lead the turn? please explain why since you are putting more money in the pot this way.

How'd you figure that one out then??

so you would rather call and lead the turn?

Now your just putting words in my mouth lol

just count it up.

The pot is $9.50, you bet $8, and villain raises to $16 we 3bet $32. Cost to find out where we are $24.

OR

We call minraise ($8). Turn pot is $41.50 and we lead for at least half pot ($20). Cost to find out where we are $28.


Now that isnt to say that calling and leading is a worse play, since we may keep more worse hands in this way. Its definatly more expensive those times we are behind though. I tend to reraise to $32 quite alot with hands and without them (but alot more often with them). I also sometimes call the flop and c/r the turn if im pretty sure im ahead. This is reallly expensive when behind though.

Originally Posted by Pelion

just count it up.

lol ty pelion i love you. anyways about worse hands coming along...i guess maybe i could see a top pair hand calling the turn lead and checking the river behind. i was thinking worse hands will fold to either the 3bet or the turn lead but maybe not.

Another point is that 3betting is a really quick way to find out if this is his set line or his bluff line.

Call and lead turn leaves you in a really shitty spot when he smooth calls and you probably have to check/fold. On the other hand, hands with showdown value probably dont bluff that river too often.

The pot is $9.50, you bet $8, and villain raises to $16 we 3bet $32. Cost to find out where we are $24.

OR

We call minraise ($8). Turn pot is $41.50 and we lead for at least half pot ($20). Cost to find out where we are $28.

I did count it up, but I thought that are 3-bet would be larger than just double are opponents raise, and that we could bet less than half the pot on the turn if we just call our opponents raise.

Originally Posted by Geanosssss

The pot is $9.50, you bet $8, and villain raises to $16 we 3bet $32. Cost to find out where we are $24.

OR

We call minraise ($8). Turn pot is $41.50 and we lead for at least half pot ($20). Cost to find out where we are $28.

I did count it up, but I thought that are 3-bet would be larger than just double are opponents raise, and that we could bet less than half the pot on the turn if we just call our opponents raise.

he raised it $8 not $16, and yes i assumed you would lead for at least 1/2 the pot on the turn.

I like the three bet. If you don't "define" your hand, the pot coud be taken away from you with worse. If you call flop and check turn, the pot is given away. Otherwise, it's a three-bet / call-and-lead. Three-bet is better for many reasons:

1. Cheaper
2. Shows more strength than a call-and-lead, since your turn bet can appear like a block bet. (more strength is good, it's easier to fold if villain shows resistance)
3. No overcard draw-outs. (AK, or someone might get a flush draw with their jack... etc.)

A three-bet shouldn't be too bad after a min-raise. It sure beats the hell out of a fold.