Quote Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Lamb, let me explain please..

I know there are no set in stone rules, so do you and so does Aok. But my point here is that when a beginner first starts off in poker without a clue it help him immensley to have some guidelines to follow so that he can float a bit. Thats all Aok does, dispense guidelines.

Consider this for a second. Lets say I'm teaching a new guy how to play and I tell him that every time he bets the flop and turnwith TPTK, gets called on the flop and raised on the turn - he should fold. Every time!! No exceptions. (This is because at low stakes being raised on the turn usually signifies that you're up against a set etc.) You probably think thats a horrible thing to tell a beginner. Your teachings for him would be full of "it depends" on a load of different things. Thats fair enough, you're right.. wheather he should fold or not does depend on loads of things...

BUT

If he does like I say and folds always will he miss out on a lot of value? Yes he will. Will he be beating the game optimally? No he wont. But over thousands of hands will that turn fold be a clear-cut easy to follow +EV guideline that he can build a solid, optimal poker game on? YES, thats what it is. Its a foundation to stop a beginner drowning in the deep end. You think for the rest of his life he will fold every TPTK hand he has when he gets raised on the turn card? No way, slowly but surely he'll see places and players where perhaps he shouldn't fold and his game will gradually improve and become more varied and "it depends" based and closer to optimal. But had he not had my guideline at the start he would have (probably) put some money in Party and lost it all because he had no clue wtf to do in which situation.
I understand what you are saying Irish. However, there is a difference between the following two statements:

A. As a rule, when you have TPTK on the turn and you are raised, you are most likely beat, you should fold.

B. You have TPTK on the turn, your opp. raises you. At the stakes you are playing, this is a safe spot to fold without a very good read. Your opp. could have a set, or two pair. As you develop in your game, you may find that folding here is not the correct play. There are many situations where certain players will raise you here with hands you beat. However, until you have played enough hands to be able to spot these situations, it is a good idea for you to avoid marginal spots like this and find better spots to get your money in.

Do you see where I am going with this? Statement A locks a player into a way of thinking. Statement B inspires thought and theory at the same time as protecting the beginner from losing all of their money. My problem with AOK telling a beginner that as a rule if he wants to play a marginal hand in late position he should raise 10x then bet huge on the flop again, is that its written in format A. It doesn't tell the player why, it doesn't say how this gains value. Frankly I would like to know how, because the only hands calling you have you crushed.

Advice given in format A is very dangerous and when taken the wrong way, can hurt a player more than it helps. Advice given in format B develops a player's rational thinking and will help them in the long run.