What´s not worth it on the small blind?

What hands do you fold from small blind in an unraised pot?

I fold perhaps 20%. Depends how busy I am at other tables

The hands that really arnt worth it are folded to the SB and you've got complete crap. I won't even waste my time some days.

-'rilla

I fold anything I wouldn't normally call with in late position. I figure the discount makes it worth calling with stuff like KJ, but anything more questionable than that, I'm probably folding.

Used to play anything moderately good. Got PokerTracker. Saw that I was losing a ton of money in the blinds. Changed up my play and while I'm still in the negative for the blinds, now if you remove the cost of the blinds, I'm up $80 in SB and $300 in BB.

P.S. Could someone move this to HE Strats or some such place? Not much HHH here.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I fold anything I wouldn't normally call with in late position. I figure the discount makes it worth calling with stuff like KJ, but anything more questionable than that, I'm probably folding.

Used to play anything moderately good. Got PokerTracker. Saw that I was losing a ton of money in the blinds. Changed up my play and while I'm still in the negative for the blinds, now if you remove the cost of the blinds, I'm up $80 in SB and $300 in BB.

P.S. Could someone move this to HE Strats or some such place? Not much HHH here.

maybe you were losing so much from teh blinds because you were not letting your hand go on the flop and not soimuch because you were completing the SB

{Moved from Hold'em Hand Histories}

For me it depends on the table. Ring game I play pretty tight, folding to a raise on anything I would not call from late; limping only with draws that I have good pot odds.

Early in a tournament games I loosen up. I still fold on a raise on anything I would not call from late. But I complete on most other hands. The implied odds are huge. Plenty of times I have completed for $10 ($1500 starting) to flop 2 pair or better. Then a KK/AA blows All-In and I take it. After the blinds go up, the implied odds just are not there anymore. Then it is back to tight.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Saw that I was losing a ton of money in the blinds.

maybe you were losing so much from teh blinds because you were not letting your hand go on the flop and not soimuch because you were completing the SB

Nope. Over even 5k hands, I was seeing that it was costing me quite a lot praying for a semi-miracle hit. I wasn't losing big anywhere, but .25 repeated 400 times (assuming that the remaining 100 or so I had a playable hand) in the small blind with questionable hands results in -$100 looking for a magical hit. Doubtful that I'd be making that much off of it hitting when it came. Not to mention that you've got the worst position at the table once the flop comes.

- Jeffrey

Jeffrey, in my reading the past month of your posts I've found one thing with you: Excellent preflop player, Average postflop player. I play alot of hands from the SB i wouldn't elsewhere, and, if you don't count the blind itself, PT tells me I've been profitable. If you remove AA KK and QQ from the stats I'm still showing a +55$ profit from coming into pots with hands I normally would fold. Remember here. 76o vs AKs isn't as big of a dog as you'd think. If you are getting 5:1 odds (1 limper and the BB and your blind), then this is an easy call. You just need to refine your play when this marginal hands hit/semi-hit/and miss.

Of course, this is for NL and not so much for limit.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Saw that I was losing a ton of money in the blinds.

maybe you were losing so much from teh blinds because you were not letting your hand go on the flop and not soimuch because you were completing the SB

Nope. Over even 5k hands, I was seeing that it was costing me quite a lot praying for a semi-miracle hit. I wasn't losing big anywhere, but .25 repeated 400 times (assuming that the remaining 100 or so I had a playable hand) in the small blind with questionable hands results in -$100 looking for a magical hit. Doubtful that I'd be making that much off of it hitting when it came. Not to mention that you've got the worst position at the table once the flop comes.

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by doggz

Jeffrey, in my reading the past month of your posts I've found one thing with you: Excellent preflop player, Average postflop player.

Interesting. Good to know as well. I'm curious, is there any specific aspect of my postflop play you'd say I need to work on?

Originally Posted by doggz

I play alot of hands from the SB i wouldn't elsewhere, and, if you don't count the blind itself, PT tells me I've been profitable. If you remove AA KK and QQ from the stats I'm still showing a +55$ profit from coming into pots with hands I normally would fold.

That's actually comparable to my numbers. I guess you can indeed make up for the loss.

Originally Posted by doggz

Remember here. 76o vs AKs isn't as big of a dog as you'd think. If you are getting 5:1 odds (1 limper and the BB and your blind), then this is an easy call. You just need to refine your play when this marginal hands hit/semi-hit/and miss.

Valid point. You can't really just look at how you are against one or two hands that would call ahead of you. 76o may not be a huge dog to AKs (not incredibly likely to be limped anyway...), but if you throw 88, 98s, JTs, and KQo, you're about as big a dog to most of these (each taken separately), and it gets to the point that you need a miracle in order to beat every one of the hands that stays in with you.

And again, you're in horrid position after the flop. I guess that's not as big a deal, since I'd assume this will be a hit or fold situation, but it still bears mentioning.

Reread your point about 5:1 on your money. I can see what you mean. You'd be getting something like 19:1 on your money in the example I gave, and from my own analysis, you're almost that likely to flop str/2 pair/trips (even without implied odds).

Ok, so what about crappy paint (Q4, for instance)? Typically I'd likely complete if it's suited, fold otherwise.

Anything suited is worth a call, and any semi connectors 8-6 and better.

If u wouldn't play it unsuited dont play it suited, i fold probably everything in SNG except 20's, suited connectros, pp in the small blind. I even fold baby aces..


q-3 suited would definately be folded

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

If u wouldn't play it unsuited dont play it suited, i fold probably everything in SNG except 20's, suited connectros, pp in the small blind. I even fold baby aces..


q-3 suited would definately be folded

What are 20's? My guess... cards taht add up to 20? like TJ and stuff like that?

i think limping with anything is a leak. At the minimum it has to be an unsuited connector of some sort. I also don't like to play baby suited connectors, because if you run into a bigger flush, you're in a world of pain.

Originally Posted by thestrokes

Originally Posted by ripjohngotti

If u wouldn't play it unsuited dont play it suited, i fold probably everything in SNG except 20's, suited connectros, pp in the small blind. I even fold baby aces..


q-3 suited would definately be folded

What are 20's? My guess... cards taht add up to 20? like TJ and stuff like that?

yup exactly but not a/9 off suit haha

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by doggz

Jeffrey, in my reading the past month of your posts I've found one thing with you: Excellent preflop player, Average postflop player.

Interesting. Good to know as well. I'm curious, is there any specific aspect of my postflop play you'd say I need to work on?


I have only seen some hands and analysis, but it seems you aren't agressive enough when you could. If you flopped top 2 pair and there were 2 cards to a straight and 2 cards to a flush would you call someone that pushed? See below

Originally Posted by doggz

I play alot of hands from the SB i wouldn't elsewhere, and, if you don't count the blind itself, PT tells me I've been profitable. If you remove AA KK and QQ from the stats I'm still showing a +55$ profit from coming into pots with hands I normally would fold.

That's actually comparable to my numbers. I guess you can indeed make up for the loss.

As a general rule of thumb, the more action you give, the more action you get. If you can play more marginal hands at the correct times you end up getting larger EV+ for monster hands... and more chances to win monster pots vs hands like TPTK and draws.

Originally Posted by doggz

Remember here. 76o vs AKs isn't as big of a dog as you'd think. If you are getting 5:1 odds (1 limper and the BB and your blind), then this is an easy call. You just need to refine your play when this marginal hands hit/semi-hit/and miss.

Valid point. You can't really just look at how you are against one or two hands that would call ahead of you. 76o may not be a huge dog to AKs (not incredibly likely to be limped anyway...), but if you throw 88, 98s, JTs, and KQo, you're about as big a dog to most of these (each taken separately), and it gets to the point that you need a miracle in order to beat every one of the hands that stays in with you.

And again, you're in horrid position after the flop. I guess that's not as big a deal, since I'd assume this will be a hit or fold situation, but it still bears mentioning.
It requires reading the players and knowing when you are ahead. At a BnM you get to see 10-20 people for an extended period and see them play. Online, you get to see 100's of people for short times (generally), so you inherently can't get the same reads on them, but you can pick of the easy general reads. These are the ones like betting patterns (read SIZE OF BET). It will come with seeing the hands, but you just 'know' what that player has, or more importantly what he doesn't.

I'm sure ilikeaces can back me up here that there are many times you can take down the pot reguardless of what you have, and the times you hit your monster? Just one in 100 hands you get payed off calling an all-in or getting called an all in justifies losing all 99 of the other hands, which invaribly you won't.

Know when to fold

Edit: My WPP just went through the roof.

And for crap - It's just that, crap. Q4 is very likely dominated, 76os is much less likely to be dominated.

If the board is 345QQ which hand is more likely to get payed? If you have Q4 there's only 1 Queen in the deck, and you still might not get payed. If you have 76 you probably have the hand won and dumb hands like QT QJ that are LIKELY to have limped in are also just as likely to give you their stacks.

Same example, 345JQ. Would you call your stack off here? I'd hope not.

I'm a tad confused...Your examples both have to do with playing too far on boards where a bettor may well have you beat (well, to some extent...the first was a two pair vs. drawing hand situation that I'd honestly need more information to evaluate - I'd want to know something about the players, specifically the one who pushed).

Playing too far has little to do with passivity. Passive play is checking or calling more than you raise (which I am a tad concerned about, if indeed this is a problem for me...I'll have to be on the watch). Playing too far is checking/calling/raising when you're beat.

I did infact have a problem with the latter - I assumed people wouldn't play stupidly enough to catch their draws when I was raising them out of their odds. That said, I've addressed that leak.

Given that you're not saying to play crappy hands in the small blind just hoping for a miracle, I agree with that point. Completing with iffy hands with high potential is good. I like the point about getting more action. This is something I may want to look at should getting action on my made hands ever become an issue (at my current stakes, it's not).

It's something I can't really put into words. It's just knowing when your beat and when you aren't. Obviously you don't want to chase down your straight vs bad odds, but you also don't want to fold the winning hand

I can't offer a better expaination then that

So you're not saying that your read is that I play to far, but rather that I fold too easily?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

So you're not saying that your read is that I play to far, but rather that I fold too easily?

In some situations. Your play looks more like a classic limit player that plays NL.

Originally Posted by doggz

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

So you're not saying that your read is that I play to far, but rather that I fold too easily?

In some situations. Your play looks more like a classic limit player that plays NL.

Interesting...and fairly strange. I've played maybe 300 hands of limit in my life, and barely broke even on them.