Weird Spot BvB

No reads as I started this table 3 hands ago.

I'm not really sure what his b/c lead turn range is, maybe hands like QJ that are trying to get to showdown. Generally confused about this hand though and would appreciate advice on all streets.

weaktight | Hand | K9s - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem

If you have no reads why not fold Pre? Could have saved yourself $2.90

Flop & turn villians leading out. Hes signaling quite loudly , your behind.


I think your also paying too dearly if you are chasing one them 9 diamonds outs .

PREFLOP.
Your preflop call is a bit loose. I much prefer to either a) be aggressor or b) call overly aggressively opps with hands that are dramatically superior to the aggressor's range. Otherwise you will sometimes end up lossing alot of money defending your trivial single BB. Then you ask yourself why did I get involved ? But my style may be a bit too Helmuthian for many, so.... Calling makes sense if you think you play well post flop, especially in position and your hand is better than your opps range.

As a side note sometimes there is value in putting hands into two categories. Those to fold and those to ReR with. Even being in position calling a raise may cause you to be frequently outplayed if you will be forced to fold when you both miss the flop. I much prefer to be the aggressor, so that if we both miss I will likely win the pot with postflop aggression.


Before calling you might want to give some thought to how you'll play the hand. What are you going to do if you catch top pair ? I would think call. What are you goind to do if catch a flush draw ? You could make a good case for both options: 1. Raise, this makes a lot of sense if your opp is PFRing with nearly any two; 2. Call, pot control for now possibly hoping to either hit the hand or steal the pot later. You might even think you can win a showdown if the hand checks both the turn and the river. That's a bit passive. I slightly prefer number 1 above, for much the same reasoning that I like to be the preflop aggressor.



FLOP. Nice, a flush draw !

OK, so raise it is. He calls your raise. Yuck. FWIW, I like your flop raise. This flop is one of the primary reasons you play this type of hand. A strong draw gives you the right to play aggressively. A raise here will give you a chance to win the hand outright now or with a second barrel on the turn.

And although I'm worried that my opp just called, my plan would be to bet the turn if I miss. He could easily call with a mediocre/weak holding thinking we are just making a move. The second barrel tells him we are serious. Which is sort of true.


THE TURN.

A brick.

He bet again ! Yuck. What's going on here ? This is a really bad sign.


I think this a turning point in the hand. He probably has something around a pair of Q's. Now I re-hate having called in the first place. I don't think I I can fold here, although I almost wish I could. While we aren't quite getting the right immediate odds I do think we are getting barely the right implied odds to call. Also note our K might be good if we hit it.


There might be a good case for raising here if we had some evidence that our opp was air balling or otherwise vulnerable to aggression frequently in this situation. But if he plays anything like a normal rational person, he's strong here. I prefer calling to raising.




THE RIVER. Another brick.

We're beat, bummer. We played the hand well, and it didn't work out.
I like the way you played on the hand other than possibly folding the hand preflop. Once you decide to call preflop, the rest of the hand almost played itself. Postflop seems pretty standard.

Originally Posted by celtic123

If you have no reads why not fold Pre? Could have saved yourself $2.90

Flop & turn villians leading out. Hes signaling quite loudly , your behind.


I think your also paying too dearly if you are chasing one them 9 diamonds outs .

I'm with you preflop. Can you elaborate on your reasoning on the turn. Isn't he getting the right implied odds to call here ? Especially if a King gives him the best hand.

I like a 3bet preflop w K9s if I knew the villain a bit more. You block KK, Kx, your suited and you're IP. Readless though I think a call is okay, and see a flop IP. At any rate, flop is fine. On the turn, you're getting 3:1 pot odds to hit your flush so by calling you're going to have to make up for some money lost on the river, whether you make your hand or can bluff villain off his (which I doubt given his lines). Just fold the turn imo unless you want to spew and shovel it in.

Preflop is fine. 3betting is meh. Raising the flop is fine but you can also flat with your K and flush draw. The turn is pretty debatable. I doubt he folds if you jam and you aren't getting the correct odds to call with a flush draw unless you account for implied odds which you probably don't have since your line is a pretty obv FD. I'd just muck the turn and move on.

Originally Posted by Donachello

Preflop is fine. 3betting is meh. Raising the flop is fine but you can also flat with your K and flush draw. The turn is pretty debatable. I doubt he folds if you jam and you aren't getting the correct odds to call with a flush draw unless you account for implied odds which you probably don't have since your line is a pretty obv FD. I'd just muck the turn and move on.

I see things a little different for the turn play. You are only slightly under immediate odds, so you need very little to give you the right implied odds. Two additional points in support of this view. First we seem to agree that he has a hand. So doesn't that mean he'll call a bet on the river if we catch ? Especially given.... A) the blind vs blind situation, where the ranges are often pretty wide, and B) his apparent hand strength; it doesn't seem reasonable to me that he would have such a narrow read on us to just flat fold a reasonable river bet. Second, in the actual hand he bet out the river. And while it's true that we have to be cautious playing results and he might not have bet if a flush hits --- he still might have bet out the river. That alone give us the right odds, and of course a raise puts well over the top.


Having said all that I'm *far* from thrilled with calling the turn.

Shrug, I guess we do have 25% equity against AQ and he is offering us 3:1 which is just enough to call. I think the hand is played pretty much exactly standard.

Originally Posted by celtic123

If you have no reads why not fold Pre? Could have saved yourself $2.90

Flop & turn villians leading out. Hes signaling quite loudly , your behind.

I think your also paying too dearly if you are chasing one them 9 diamonds outs .

Yeah K9s is semi close here vs an unknown, given that it's 3 handed and I have position flatting can show a profit imo. Flop is just a cbet by him and I think raising/calling are both ok.

OTT I don't think he's folding much if we jam. We potentially have 12 outs as I don't think a set would just flat the flop that often.

Weird flop raise imo. I might be wrong, but as played, I'd have called the flop and folded the turn.

preflop calling or 3betting is fine, this is near the bottom of my calling range preflop but still in there.

Flop you should only be raising if you're happy shoving over a 3bet, which you shouldn't rly from an unknown imo. Calling is pretty std. raising isn't horrible but I think IP calling is a bit better.

The rest is fine/std

Preflop call seems fine to me against an unknown.

I would probably just call the flop, since I don't know how strong the villain's betting range is here. You still have two ways to win the pot on the turn -- you can hit your draw or you can try to steal if he checks to you. Plus, until I get better reads on villain's tendencies, I don't want to raise and inflate the pot without a decent plan on how to win it.

As played, calling the turn is fine since the bet is pretty small. You only need to win an additional $2 or so off him on the river if you hit your draw.

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

Yeah K9s is semi close here vs an unknown, given that it's 3 handed and I have position flatting can show a profit imo. Flop is just a cbet by him and I think raising/calling are both ok.

OTT I don't think he's folding much if we jam. We potentially have 12 outs as I don't think a set would just flat the flop that often.

Fair enough , my reply is influenced by your graph in another thread.

all seems fine, flatting flop is only thing I'd think about changing

Originally Posted by shallam

I'm with you preflop. Can you elaborate on your reasoning on the turn. Isn't he getting the right implied odds to call here ? Especially if a King gives him the best hand.

I think we're taking implied odds too far , if we hit our we dont have the nuts flush.

and if the board pairs . blah blah .......

Hand is fine.

no.

Originally Posted by celtic123

I think we're taking implied odds too far , if we hit our we dont have the nuts flush.

and if the board pairs . blah blah .......

Listen here nitty mcnitterson, this hand is fine and lol @ no implied odds with 2nd NFD in BvB, and now you're worried about MAYBE the board pairing cuz people always have sets BvB obv.

people seriously fold this hand vs. SB?

wowww folding pre would be terrrrrrrrrrible

Originally Posted by celtic123

I think we're taking implied odds too far , if we hit our we dont have the nuts flush.

and if the board pairs . blah blah .......

wayyy too nitty for BvB.
i say the play was fine, and don't fold this pre lol

Hand looks pretty good to me.

LoOKs like im wrong then.

Sereally , does this hand example and way it was plyed belong in the BC ?

The OP and all the posters ITT are confident and know how to play profitably here. But I see spewed chips here.

A newbie playing like this = busto . imo


About Pot Odds and Implied Odds When Playing Draws

much rather call flop btw, espec w/o reads

Originally Posted by celtic123

LoOKs like im wrong then.

Sereally , does this hand example and way it was plyed belong in the BC ?

The OP and all the posters ITT are confident and know how to play profitably here. But I see spewed chips here.

A newbie playing like this = busto . imo


About Pot Odds and Implied Odds When Playing Draws

Not trying to be mean but what?

Originally Posted by celtic123

LoOKs like im wrong then.

Sereally , does this hand example and way it was plyed belong in the BC ?

The OP and all the posters ITT are confident and know how to play profitably here. But I see spewed chips here.

A newbie playing like this = busto . imo


About Pot Odds and Implied Odds When Playing Draws

i'm not completely sure i understand what this post means, but i'll say this.

if you're pulling the "calling is probably best, but BCers aren't good enough postflop to play this profitably," ok, whatever, it's literally the bottom of my calling range ever (i don't flat K8s usually). to avoid playing postflop, you can 3b, since this is like the nut 3b bluff hand. folding this hand puts you well on the way to being an 88% fold BB to steal type of guy.

as for the turn, i don't see what difference it makes as to whether we're a newbie or tom dwan, your odds are your odds. even if he has every single combo of Axdd in his range, there are more combos of AQ alone (much less KQ, sets, lower flushes, etc) that will pay us at least one bet to give us plenty enough implied odds.

{Locked}

I prefer calling pre and calling the flop here against an unknown at this level.

For anyone saying that somehow either of those plays are -EV, you had plenty of time to state your case, which you failed to do. This thread is likely to escalate into more bullshit, so I'm locking now.