UTG play

First of all, this is my first post on FTR but I've been coming here very frequently since I found the site a couple of months ago. I just want to say thanks to all the people here. You've thought me a lot.

Anyway, I play at PP and I've been running fairly well. Although I recently got PT and I think I've noticed a couple of leaks. I really think I need help with my UTG play. It's the position I lose most money from.

When I noticed I lost money there I started narrowing my range. But I have recently realized that I probably also became way too passive. I am probably too careful UTG now instead.

So what hands do you reccomend to play in EP? I'm starting to avoid drawing hands like SC cause I find them too hard to play post-flop. Should I ever play these? Should I ever limp? What hands do you raise with PF? Also, how do you play voulnerable hands like TPTK?

Thanks for any help.

I don't like SC's in EP. If you flop your draw, you'll be playing it oop and that tends to be no fun. I'm no expert by any means but I value position a lot in this game.. as the button moves around the table my range opens up. I love SC's in LP, yes you should play them. I don't really like limping, but sometimes I will limp the 22-66.. but lately I've been raising pretty much every pp in any position. I stay away from hands like AJ KJ KQ in ep... not saying it is bas to play them from there, I'm just a nit I guess? SB - UTG I'm pretty tight.

There is a difference between being tight and being passive.

Just to clarify, I were reffering to EP with all my questions. I'm definitely playing SC in LP.

At a full table I open UTG with AQ+ AJs+ KQs 77+, and if the table is extremely soft I will limp Axs 87s+ T8s+.

At a shorthanded table I open UTG with AJ+ A9s+ KQ KJs+ 22+, and if the table is extremely weak I will limp drawing hands as above.

Actually, limping with non-paired hands is about the worst thing that can you do. A big part of my game plan is to punish weak players who limp in with large pot-sized raise from the button. A player is then forced to call a raise with a marginal hand like A9 or KJ, (which more often then not will be dominated if a hand goes to showdown) or to fold their blinds. ONLY POOR PLAYERS LIMP FROM THE EP!

The exception to that is to limp with low to medium pocket pairs, a hand that (in NL) has has tremendous implied odds provided that you hit your set and your opponent has a large stack (My critetia to call a PF raise with a low pp is if their stack size is 10x that of their pre flop raise). The important distinction between calling a raise with a pp as opposed to an unpaired hand is; IF YOU HIT YOUR HAND, YOU CAN BE SURE THAT IT'S THE BEST HAND. Something that is not the case if you play A9 and the flop comes AJ8.

Any hand that you do play should be opened with a standard raise (4-5x bb). I personally would raise eights and better for PPs, and raise AJs KQs and better. Throw away JQ, 9 10, AJo, etc.

So to sum it up, play TIGHT from the EP and you'll turn a profit from UTG, the hand you do play, play aggressive!

Originally Posted by izybx

ONLY POOR PLAYERS LIMP FROM THE EP!

I think this is old dogma that is coming into question. There are many situations where open limping makes a lot more sense than raising.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by izybx

ONLY POOR PLAYERS LIMP FROM THE EP!

I think this is old dogma that is coming into question. There are many situations where open limping makes a lot more sense than raising.

disagree

there are SOME situations where open limping makes more sense then raising, but I wouldn't say it's often (or anywhere close to often) the best play between folding or raising.

In what situation besides a low to medium pocket pair would you want to limp? Suited connectors will play draws out of position, high pairs and face cards will lose value if seen multiway...

What situations are you referring to?

small pocket pairs, suited aces, and suited connectors at weak tables.

The stronger the table, the more of a bad play it is to open limp.

At a table full of horribly passive players, open limping QTs UTG is massively +EV.

Most of NLHE is played after the flop, and thats where the most of the EV is to be extracted. Preflop strategy is largely irrelevant.

Players like demiparadigm turn -EV situations like raising 43s UTG and limp/calling with A3s into +EV situations by outplaying poor players after the flop.

Originally Posted by izybx

What situations are you referring to?

These:

Originally Posted by izybx

Any hand that you do play should be opened with a standard raise (4-5x bb). I personally would raise eights and better for PPs, and raise AJs KQs and better. Throw away JQ, 9 10, AJo, etc.

Instead of throwing these away, try limping them. They are easy to get away from and will hit surprisingly often. It's a simple but effective way to open up your game and see more flops cheaply. The dogma is that the earlier the position, the stronger your hand needs to be. That is more true at an aggressive table than it is at a passive one, and at a lot of the $50NL, $100NL and, I venture to say, $200NL tables on Party and other sites, you can get away with this for the cost of the BB a good percentage of the time.

This whole discussion is way too vague for me. At first the original poster is asking about UTG play but doesn't mention stuff like how many players are at the table, how the game plays, or anything like that. Then the discussion turns towards open-limping (again, number of players yet to act is nowhere to be seen, ever), and then towards apparantly limping in general. Again, no other info is given.

fwiw, the more I play, the more I realize that limping in general (and particularly opening with a limp) sucks, not that I am advocating or ever will advocate a no-limp policy.

I f you limp with a marginal hand you are simply going to lose money when you do hit your top pair with 5 callers. At low limits your goal shouldnt be to see flops and outplay multiple players, because it isnt going to happen. Show me someone who sees 40% of he flops on nl 100 at party poker and i guarantee you hes a losing player. Rather than trying to sneak into pots out of position with a hand so marginal that you dont want to raise with it, the goal should be to play fewer flops but to play the ones you do see very aggressive.

It takes discipline to fold aj offsuit from under the gun, but it takes discipline to improve your game. Show me a limper at nl 200 or nl 400 and lower and ill show you a player who can be completely dominated by a tight- aggressive player

Originally Posted by Lukie

fwiw, the more I play, the more I realize that limping in general (and particularly opening with a limp) sucks, not that I am advocating or ever will advocate a no-limp policy.

well, obv. when you only play 4% of hands, you should definitely be opening with most of them

better to play 4% of the hands from utg then 30%. Its not the position where ANYONE is going to make serious profit

Also a big factor is how many players.

UTG isn't that bad of position in a six max game, as when you raise from it you often will just get called by the blinds and end up having the button.

Originally Posted by izybx

I f you limp with a marginal hand you are simply going to lose money when you do hit your top pair with 5 callers. At low limits your goal shouldnt be to see flops and outplay multiple players, because it isnt going to happen. Show me someone who sees 40% of he flops on nl 100 at party poker and i guarantee you hes a losing player. Rather than trying to sneak into pots out of position with a hand so marginal that you dont want to raise with it, the goal should be to play fewer flops but to play the ones you do see very aggressive.

It takes discipline to fold aj offsuit from under the gun, but it takes discipline to improve your game. Show me a limper at nl 200 or nl 400 and lower and ill show you a player who can be completely dominated by a tight- aggressive player

Nobody said anything about playing marginal hands for top pair. That's just stupid. But with every caller after me my implied odds get better and better for hitting the flop hard for a strong draw or two pair+, OOP or no.

It's all situational. At an aggressive table you just don't do it. But at a limp happy, minraising table, of which there are plenty, it's just another tool in the toolbox that can be very effective.

Originally Posted by izybx

I f you limp with a marginal hand you are simply going to lose money when you do hit your top pair with 5 callers. At low limits your goal shouldnt be to see flops and outplay multiple players, because it isnt going to happen. Show me someone who sees 40% of he flops on nl 100 at party poker and i guarantee you hes a losing player. Rather than trying to sneak into pots out of position with a hand so marginal that you dont want to raise with it, the goal should be to play fewer flops but to play the ones you do see very aggressive.

It takes discipline to fold aj offsuit from under the gun, but it takes discipline to improve your game. Show me a limper at nl 200 or nl 400 and lower and ill show you a player who can be completely dominated by a tight- aggressive player

I love this post (in a good way).

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by izybx

I f you limp with a marginal hand you are simply going to lose money when you do hit your top pair with 5 callers. At low limits your goal shouldnt be to see flops and outplay multiple players, because it isnt going to happen. Show me someone who sees 40% of he flops on nl 100 at party poker and i guarantee you hes a losing player. Rather than trying to sneak into pots out of position with a hand so marginal that you dont want to raise with it, the goal should be to play fewer flops but to play the ones you do see very aggressive.

It takes discipline to fold aj offsuit from under the gun, but it takes discipline to improve your game. Show me a limper at nl 200 or nl 400 and lower and ill show you a player who can be completely dominated by a tight- aggressive player

I love this post (in a good way).

So do I, actually.

izybx, if you aren't seeing flops with drawing hands against loose, passive, and bad players, then you are leaving money on the table.

I see plenty of flops against loose, bad, and/or paaive players.

I just see them in position.

I play my draws in position and can reraise for a free card, slowplay monsters (in posiiion), and if i do have top pair i can control the pot size and get get better reads on my opponent.

Why would you limp with 3 people to act after you? Its a Terrible way to play a draw if you do flop it. And if your playing to flop a draw or two pair/trips, why not play every suited hand including j5 suited and 23 suited? Its the same odds to flop 2 oair/trips/flush draw as kj suited!

Sit at my table and i would quickly figure out that you limp with mediocre hands and would punish you for it. Playing at a table full of bad players doesnt mean you should play badly!

Originally Posted by izybx

Sit at my table and i would quickly figure out that you limp with mediocre hands and would punish you for it. Playing at a table full of bad players doesnt mean you should play badly!

Of course.

Thats why its been said in this thread that limping drawing hands oop is a poor play at strong tables, that is, at tables with lots of players like you.

Its not a poor play at soft tables. Sure its not as +EV to see a flop out of position with QTs as it is to see one in position. BUT it is +EV. And if you want to maximise your EV at a soft table you should limp QTs in almost any position.


Also open limping as opposed to open raising allows you to see flops with very deep stack/pot ratios, allowing you to play deepstack poker after the flop, thereby allowing you have a bigger edge over your opponent by giving you the ability to make bigger laydowns and bluffs against them.

okay let me ask you this...

you limp with q10 suited from utg, everybody limps, the BB an aggressive player raise the pot...

Call?

ok lets say you think hes playing on the dead money in the pot, so you call, so does the button and the small blind. flop comes q 9 8 rainbow. Big blind insta-bets half the pot...

Call? Raise?

yes

easy fold you have someone betting into a dangerous board with three other people whilst out of position.

But your preflop EV mission was accomplished. You saw a flop with a strong drawing hand in a multiway pot with bad players, and position on the most important of them.

but if give the choice...wouldnt you rather be the one raising and making the other guy fold top pair?cant you play any two suited or connectedcards and hope to murder a flop?

Your argument is very valid on more aggressive tables, and people who know how to bet their hands and give you bad odds to draw. These drawing type of hands become massively +EV on those tables.

What you're failing to take into account is that, against loose passive players, your AJ will more often than not make the best hand when you hit top pair on the flop, and hold up when it goes to showdown. It will also sometimes make two pair, or a nut straight.

You'll sometimes flop gutshots and get a minbet from top two or a set which is called by half the table, giving you odds to draw, and when you hit it, the pot is huge, and you stack the better. They are betting small because they WANT calls, and when you make a nut hand and play back at them, they are more than happy to pay you off.

At lower limits (or even higher limits if the conditions are correct), against the incrediby passive players preflop, and people who have no idea how to bet their hands, I think limping a wide range of drawing hands from early position can be very +EV if you are selective and patient.

They are so easy to get away from, that most of the time it will only cost you one bet when you miss. However, when you hit, you'll get paid off nicely. That is why the passive element of the table is so crucial to this style of play. You need to be getting odds to draw at the hand to make it profitable, and if you're getting odds to draw, I dont see how your position matters at all.

I started doing this at really passive tables after reading it in sklansky malmuth and millers low stakes hold em book. They explain in some nice detail what conditions are neccesary to play drawing hands from early position, and how you should play them after the flop.

Actually, limping with non-paired hands is about the worst thing that can you do

Ok, lets sort this out.
Typically in a full ring game people limp for three reasons.
1. They want a cheap flop with good implied odds.
2. They are trapping to limp reraise with a big hand.
3. They suck and are playing trash or are passive and dont want to raise (these players suck btw)

Comon knowlege suggests that if you hit a set with a pocket pair, a hand you can limp in ep that has good implied odds then you are almost assured of having the best hand whether the pot is raised or not.
This is common knowledge and an easy way to beat the game when its full of bad players.

HOWEVER.
The game dynamic is begining to change.
Players, especially full ring players now recognise the typical flopped set line, particularly in a raised preflop pot when a player limp/called a raise. Thus players are now raising with PP's in the hope of building a big pot when they flop their set which also allows them to use their fold equity on the flop becasue of the asumptions made by other players when a player raises preflop.
Thus, players may raise AQ and make top pair but they may also raise 77 and make top set.
Thus ep play is no longer just about not being dominated, it is about using implied odds to theor maximum effect.

As a result, as theory and Practice now points out, and as the more studious players have begun to realise, limping in ep with drawing hands is now much more +ev because raising the flop with a draw will put tptk hands off playing big pots because the think they may be against a set. The flush draw/oesd line and set line can be played in exactly the same way with exactly the same amount of fold equity.
Therefore, it is NOT NECESSAIRLY (sp) bad to limp in ep with QTs because of the changing shape of the full ring game.
However
1. You need to be playing with players who recognise this.
2. You need to be playing at stakes where players are actually able to fold tptk.
3. It only works in passive games where not a lot of raising goes on preflop but a lot of players go to the flop. (and yes, if you apply good table selection then everyone of us should be sat at these tables anyway, not rockfests)

but if give the choice...wouldnt you rather be the one raising and making the other guy fold top pair?cant you play any two suited or connectedcards and hope to murder a flop?

So realise that the game can advance beyond the simple strength of your cards. Eventually, lines become evident that will fold certain hands or force players into big decisions. Limping in ep with drawing hands is one of these possible developments because of the effectiveness of set farming over the last 12months or so as poker has grown along with bonus whoring.

I dont see how that can succeed at any decent limit. If i can find a table so bad that noone raises preflop but good enough to laydown tptk...well i bet you can play any two cards at that table. Unless your on a nl 100 table then i doubt that youll find such a situation.

Im not buying into the theory, i think +ev is a word that is thrown around a lot, but i wonder who REALLY has +ev with their 56 suited from UTG...not me, thats for sure. Are you using pokertracker? whas your ev for hands UTG? What limits are you playing? I am very curious.

I feel that if youre able to play well enough on the flop to play any two reasonable cards then you are good enought to raise preflop and try to take down a big pot.

I gave up trying to outplay bad players a long time ago...

I gave up trying to outplay bad players a long time ago...

Value bet, dont outplay

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I gave up trying to outplay bad players a long time ago...

Value bet, dont outplay

exactly

you don't see lots o' flops against bad players to out play them. You see flops against them because they give you the implied odds to do so.

87s is like 30% to win vs a random donkeys raising range. But if you can make twice as much money from them when YOU hit as they can make from you if THEY hit, then playing 87s against them is +EV.

Renton,

How do you know that limping QTs UTG on a bad table is +EV?

You keep saying things like "it's massively +EV", and "but it IS EV" like it's fact. It's not a fact, it's just pure speculation. Even if you provide pokertracker data that shows your QTs in the green under the gun (something that I find unlikely, personally), it's still going to be a meaningless sample size and it's still going to based on how you play and in what games you are playing in.

Playing drawing hands out of position sucks, by the way. And I think you grossly overestimate the value of a hand like QTs out of position in a multiway pot, even on soft tables.

Isn't it obvious that seeing a cheap flop at a passive table with good drawing hands like QTs against players that can't lay down hands would be a profitable situation?

Originally Posted by Renton

Isn't it obvious that seeing a cheap flop at a passive table with good drawing hands like QTs against players that can't lay down hands would be a profitable situation?

from under the gun at a full table, probably not.

Maybe if the stacks were deep and all the players really bad.

Lukie just because you play 12% of hands doesn't mean that only 12% of hands are profitable kthx

HEY NOW, i thought we were only playing 4% of hands.......

GG lukie

whats your position stats? Im curious as to what your UTG winnings are (especially with q 10)

Also i dont think that laying crap hands from the ep makes you a tight player that plays 4% of the flops. Poker tracker has me as semi-loose aggressive/aggressive and q 10 is an instafold for me, even at a full 6 max

QT s 0.02 -0.03 0.04 0.12 0.11 0.02 0.15 0.15 0.12 0.07

3RD column is UTG...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/Holdem-...10-Players.php

thanks for the great post, i guess that proves it. True you can up your expected value if youre a very good player, but I think its safe to say that playing marginal hands utg is a losing proposition.

Still waiting on those utg PT stats renton...

PTBB/hand limped from UTG:

K9s: 1.4
76s: 1.25
A7s: 1.24
JTs: 1.21
A6s: 1.13
T8s: 1.00
87s: 0.81

...and so on.

i am out of town and don't have stats

will find stuff this weekend, chill

lol no offense man

Originally Posted by Renton

GG lukie

this adds nothing to your argument.

I am in the green UTG as well. You should be in the green in all positions outside of the blinds.

edit: I don't even know what this is showing, nor do I care.

i was just messing around

those were stats from the nittiest nit in my 200nl party fr game.

lol 7/.5, that's just.. wow