Using a HUD at microstakes

Does using a HUD at microstakes really hinder player development. It is in the dictionary () but is it true?

I'd say that not posting hands when you were in a situation where you weren't sure what to do, so that you could get advice and learn , is going to hinder a players progress more than if they had (and understood) extra information about a player provided by a HUD.

if you don't know how to get the information without it, then yes

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

if you don't know how to get the information without it, then yes

Wat.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

Wat.

using a hud "hinders your development" at microstakes if you aren't able to 1 or 2 table and get the moar information than it would give you on your own.

Using a HUD is fine, just don't let it be the be all end all to your ability to develop reads. You should always be trying to gather as much information as possible. Noting how everyone played their hands that get shown down. Paying attention to table dynamics(Some guy who keep relentlessly isolating some fish may show HUD stats of 40/35 but may not be opening nearly as wide when the fish doesn't limp behind). Etc Etc Etc Develop reads
???
Profit

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

using a hud "hinders your development" at microstakes if you aren't able to 1 or 2 table and get the moar information than it would give you on your own.

I have some players in my database on whom I have thousands of hands worth of detailed stats. After sitting down with them for one hand, all of those stats then pop up on my HUD and are immediately accessible to me. Are you saying we can get this sort of information "on our own" and as quickly for (in your example) up to sixteen other players at once?

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I have some players in my database on whom I have thousands of hands worth of detailed stats. After sitting down with them for one hand, all of those stats then pop up on my HUD and are immediately accessible to me. Are you saying we can get this sort of information "on our own" and as quickly for (in your example) up to sixteen other players at once?

yea, theres this feature on a lot of sites called "note taking"

You can get so much from bet sizing and timing, but it's certainly valuable to know who hasn't opened a hand in forever, and who's constantly raising.
Use a hud imo, but start with one stat at a time. Having vpip/pfr/3b stats is extremely valuable. Overvaluing aggression stats can hurt you a lot - most utterly useless stat ever btw.

Originally Posted by oskar

You can get so much from ....... timing,

Can you elaborate on reliable timing tells, even as most players are multi-tabling?

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Can you elaborate on reliable timing tells, even as most players are multi-tabling?

i can sometimes tell that a someome has a hand with some value or they think im FoS if they're playing 20 tables and tanking and using their time bank on a river/ AI call, but I don't really see how that helps me

I think a HUD is a great tool to have. It will help your win rate no matter how many tables your playing, the information is just to valuable.

That said, I believe that the ability to 1 or 2 table without it is invaluable. Learning to take notes, check hand histories while in play, and get reads like timing tells should be a prerequisite to using HUD. A player who can use these skills in conjunction with a HUD will be the most well rounded player and eventually be pwning the rest.

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

yea, theres this feature on a lot of sites called "note taking"

Errr, ok let's think about this.

My HUD is set up so that stats don't even appear until I have 25+ hands on a player, as before then it's pretty much worthless. To be honest until I have 3 times that number I don't give my stats much credence. Only then do SOME stats become reliable, i.e stats which are contributed to with every single hand, such as VPIP.

Now, I'll concede that you MIGHT be able to take a note on how active ONE villain is preflop which gives you about the same level of accuracy as the VPIP stat on your HUD after 75 or so hands - if you're paying sole attention to that villain. Nevermind the other dozen or so you're sitting with.

However, let's consider a stat like like Folds To 3bet. Really useful stat at the micros as re-stealing can win you a lot of nice pots, most fish being scared stiff of 3bets unless they have a monster. Now, before this stat becomes particularly reliable, we need to see villain get 3bet and have our HUD record his reaction a reasonable number of times, say 7 - 10 (a 100% F3B stat over one hand being completely worthless obv). How many hands do you think it might take to see him get 3bet that many times? 400? 500? 600? Say it's just 400. How many sessions, over how many days do you need to play against this villain to clock up that many hands? Especially if we're only playing them on one table at a time. 3 if we're very lucky?

I absolutely defy you to tell me that you can sit down with a random player on 3 different occasions (probably more), perhaps weeks apart, play 100s of hands each time, watch his reaction every time he is 3bet, *remember his reaction every previous time you saw him get 3bet* and then make a note that gives you the same level of reliability as your F3B popup stat on the HUD recording that info for you. And don't even pretend you can do that with every single player you run into, because you can't.

HUDs are on one level super automated note taking devices. It's this premise which means the poker sites allow the use of PT3/HEM on tables where you're active but forbid sitting out on a dozen others just logging hands for stats. It's recording information that in theory you could write down yourself as you're playing your cards, but in practice it would be impossible to do so.

Note taking is fantastic and *highly important* for recording a player's peculiarities in particular situations and for making HUD stat reads more specific. However you simply CANNOT record information on every single villain's most basic tendencies, tendencies on which we make basic decisions with the same degree of reliability as a HUD can.

If you weren't lazy and took the times to take notes outside of playing on the regs you're playing with a tonne you'd be a lot more well off then you only have to "pay attention" to tendencies of the nonregs and why are you playing 16tables @ the micros. Way to stunt your growth completely.
Over value stats like c-bet % w/o actually giving them a c-bet range is gonna hurt you. Example if a villain c-bets 60%, if he c-betting any pair + draw or is he c-betting any nut hand + air + 8(+) out draws. Develop reads people. Knowing someone opens 20% of hands is awesome but know what's even better? Knowing what 20%. Yes this is obviously difficult to develop to at the table but you can develop a lot of these reads off the games versus most of the regs your playing with.

At no point did I say that using a HUD is a replacement for using your brain.

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Can you elaborate on reliable timing tells, even as most players are multi-tabling?

When is a timing tell ever going to be something like: "took a reasonable amount of time to..."
It's mostly instant actions or timing down obnoxiously.

Or oop between a call on one street and a check on the next. It's unlikely that they would focus on another table in between. The pause between them seeing the turn card and checking can be very revealing. Especially if they aren't ever thinking about leading after c/calling the previous street: True for most regs.
I'm being vague on purpose. You're much better off figuring those things out for yourself.

There seems to a be little confusion on what I asked here. I'm not questioning whether or not a HUD is useful, but rather whether or not a beginner player should start using one right off instead of learning the game without one. The theory being there are basic skills a player should pick up before they go on to relying on the stats a HUD can give them.

Originally Posted by oskar

Overvaluing aggression stats can hurt you a lot - most utterly useless stat ever btw.

That sounds interesting. What makes you say that?

If I were to advise an absolute beginner, I'd say avoid using a HUD right away. Learn the basics and get familiar with the game, then introduce a HUD to help your play. But honestly, it isn't that big of a deal.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Knowing someone opens 20% of hands is awesome but know what's even better? Knowing what 20%.

HUDs won't tell you if a villain has a fondness for 74s, but it's fair to assume that if someone opens 20% of their hands, then it's likely to be the top 20% of hands. It doesn't really take a genius to figure out a range from a reasonable number of hands played. 20% to me means he's playing the obvious hands, and mixing it up with a few pairs, suited ace rags and suited connectors. If I see anything that challenges this notion, such as an unsuited ace rag called to a raise, this is where I take notes.

Originally Posted by Tasha

That sounds interesting. What makes you say that?

Most people who use it don't even know how it's calculated. If you don't know how it's calculated, and/or you don't have a big enough sample I can't imagine how it could be of any use.

Pay attention to the table and don't solely rely on the HUD. The cbet stat should be key because many improving players learn cbet and overuse it.

"The cbet stat should be key because many improving players learn cbet and overuse it."

It didn't take me long to figure out not to cbet every time you raise pre. Simply not doing it causes a thinking villain to assess why you haven't, and people will be more likely to fold their eights when you do cbet AK on a Qhigh flop. You have to mix it about or you get found out quickly, even fish can see if someone is cbetting every raise. I tend to cbet around half the time when I raise and miss the flop, but if we're four handed or more, then I'll give up nearly all the time unless I have solid reads that make me feel I can win the pot.

When you are learning, try playing just 1 table, have a HUD running but don't have it on. Try your best to remember betting patterns, as they are really important. You will start to get a feel for frequencies just by observation.

Have a HUD running in the background and turn it on when you feel more confident and want to play 2-3 tables.

If you start every session like this then you will dramatically increase your winrate, because you will be thinking more in depth about the players' tendencies and the reasons for betting/checking and folding.

After you have a big edge over the field you can just run your HUD all day and increase tables. But if you don't have the basics down... just running a hud can make you lazy and complacent.

My 2 cents...

Originally Posted by oskar

Overvaluing aggression stats can hurt you a lot - most utterly useless stat ever btw.

Ditto...I removed this stat from my HUD

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

However, let's consider a stat like like Folds To 3bet. Really useful stat at the micros as re-stealing can win you a lot of nice pots, most fish being scared stiff of 3bets unless they have a monster. Now, before this stat becomes particularly reliable, we need to see villain get 3bet and have our HUD record his reaction a reasonable number of times, say 7 - 10 (a 100% F3B stat over one hand being completely worthless obv). How many hands do you think it might take to see him get 3bet that many times? 400? 500? 600? Say it's just 400. How many sessions, over how many days do you need to play against this villain to clock up that many hands?

Do you really need to wait for your HUD to tell you that someone will fold to a 3bet? Its easy. Find the guy who isnt a passive fish and is playing aggro ABC poker. This should be easy to spot in 20 hands or so. Then 3 bet him (assuming some huge fish isnt in the blind). EZ game.

Originally Posted by oskar

Most people who use it don't even know how it's calculated. If you don't know how it's calculated, and/or you don't have a big enough sample I can't imagine how it could be of any use.

I sometimes get the impression people aren't too sure how to use the other stats either...