Typical Win Rate for Micros...

I apologize if this topic has been covered before and would appreciate a link directing me to the past post if this is the case.

Okay, I have a question regarding a typical win rate at microstakes. (5NL, 10NL, and 25NL). Currently I'm running just under 3BB/100 over almost 16K hands (so I'm thinking this is the rate which I will sustain throughout the future hands ahead of me). I'm in the process of working hard to improve and I think I can definately bring this win rate up, but I'm just curious as to how high?

I should probably mention that I play anywhere from 8-16 tables with HUD depending on how sharp my mind is, so I'm guessing if my win rate is considered low it's because I'm playing alot of games at once.

Anyone able to confirm this and give their input?

Well, 3ptbb/100 is a respectable rate. Thats double BB/100
A good experienced player however could expect a much higher rate than 3ptbb/100 at the micros.

just for clarification:

BB = big bets = 2x the big blind. (1ptbb = 1BB)
bb = blig blind

a respectable winrate for the micros is between 3BB - 5BB / 100 imho.

First, any win rate that's positive is great because you're at least beating the other players + Rake, which is not insignificant. It buys you unlimited time to improve. So nice job.

Second, win rates of 5 ptBB/100 (or 10 BB/100) are very possible at 10nl and below, and many players have seen 25k stretches north of 10 ptBB/100 (or 20 BB/100) winrates at 5nl and 10nl. If you're currently making money, but barely, at micro stakes, you probably have big leaks in game.

Third, think of it this way. If you are capable of winning at 5 ptBB/100, then you could drop back from 15 tables to FIVE and make MORE money per hour than you're 1.5 ptBB/100 rate is winning for you. Also, from personal experience, I will tell you that massive multitabling is NOT going to help you work on your game. You need to focus more attention on each hand you play. When multitabling more than 7 or 8 FR tables and more than 4 or 5 6m tables, you're missing a ton of value. I learn most when I play on 3 or 4 6max tables and 5 or 6 FR tables.

Fourth, moving up from the micros to small stakes is MUCH more valuable to your long term win rate (calculate 2 ptBB/100 at 100nl over half a dozen tables - THAT'S where you're aiming). So cut back on the tables, work on your game, and you'll move up more quickly, imo. Again, I made the mistake for months of trying to multitable too massively too soon. I cut way back on tables, learned the game. When I finally plugged my biggest leaks, I moved up to 25nl and 50nl in about 6 weeks each. Never playing a huge number of tables, but winning solidly on each one.

Robb, would you say you found more variance in your win rates at the micros than at the stakes you play at now? i.e some days absolutely destroying it, others down BIs, as opposed to a smaller but steadier win rate?

I spent most of last month steadily beating 2nl for approx 9pt/BB100+ but now I seem to have stalled. I'm sure it's partly to do with leaks in my game, but I'd still be interested to hear your thoughts...

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I apologize if this topic has been covered before and would appreciate a link directing me to the past post if this is the case.

Okay, I have a question regarding a typical win rate at microstakes. (5NL, 10NL, and 25NL). Currently I'm running just under 3BB/100 over almost 16K hands (so I'm thinking this is the rate which I will sustain throughout the future hands ahead of me). I'm in the process of working hard to improve and I think I can definately bring this win rate up, but I'm just curious as to how high?

I should probably mention that I play anywhere from 8-16 tables with HUD depending on how sharp my mind is, so I'm guessing if my win rate is considered low it's because I'm playing alot of games at once.

Anyone able to confirm this and give their input?

The underlined is fine but the bold is not. To make that win-rate go up, focus on quality of play whenever your mind is sharp instead of adding more tables.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

Robb, would you say you found more variance in your win rates at the micros than at the stakes you play at now? i.e some days absolutely destroying it, others down BIs, as opposed to a smaller but steadier win rate?

I spent most of last month steadily beating 2nl for approx 9pt/BB100+ but now I seem to have stalled. I'm sure it's partly to do with leaks in my game, but I'd still be interested to hear your thoughts...

I think the opposite seems true. When I was crushing 10nl (avg 9 ptBB/100 for 18k hands right before I moved up), I rarely had a down session if I played more than an hour. At 50nl, about 40% of my sessions are negative, but my win rate is only 3 ptBB/100 right now. So I'm not sure if there's more variance or less, but with the huge win rates possible at 10nl and below, you have to take a good number of bad beats (or tilt) in a short time period to be negative for a session of 1k hands + .

Funny thing, tho, at 50nl: the game is more stable and less "swingy" since there's fewer fish. Reading ranges is easier because most folks play "decent" cards. You know when you get to showdown what 3 or 4 hands you'll probably see. Unlike 10nl and worse, where you get to showdown and think "ZOMG I never would've expected him to call down with THAT!!"

The problem at 50nl is that your win rates are lower since the fish aren't stacking off with crap every 50 hands. You have to actually outplay people (who are opening essentially the same range as you are) to win at 50nl, imo. So it's stable, sure, but the all-in hands are harder to dominate than at 10nl or even 25nl - they don't get all-in w/ crap, typically. So you have more variance in the big hands, even though the game feels "saner" and less "crazy."

To summarize, no, I don't buy that the micros are higher variance 'cuz of all the fish. I think the micros are lower variance precisely BECAUSE of the fish.

Originally Posted by sil693

just for clarification:

BB = big bets = 2x the big blind. (1ptbb = 1BB)
bb = blig blind

a respectable winrate for the micros is between 3BB - 5BB / 100 imho.

I disagree. I don't think you're really playing well unless you can manage 5+ ptBB/100 at 10nl and below and 3 - 5 ptBB/100 at 25nl. At least, I wasn't. When I really worked on my game and started playing well, my winrates at 10nl and 25nl were 8+ and 5+ ptBB/100 respectively (and yes, that's ptBB/100).

And that wasn't years ago before UIGEA - that was October/November of 2008.

Finally, I'll make this point that rarely gets made in the BC. The upper reaches of 10nl win rates has never really been explored. No one who's good enough to crush 200nl has ever spent enough time dinking around at 10nl for enough hands (say 25k) to establish a credible top end. FTR regs have certainly posted 10+ ptBB/100 at 5nl and 10nl over sizeable samples. But here's the thing. If you're crushing a game like that, you'll be rolled for the next level in 20k hands since you're winning 2 BI per 1k hands.

I'm confused Robb. You say the opposite seems true, and then you seem to agree with my original proposition than things are slower but less swingy at the higher stakes...? Hummm.

Sorry to hijack the thread I'm just trying to figure out how I was crushing the micros in the manner you described yourself for a few k hands but now for some reason I seem to have stalled. I'm not tilting off tons of BIs, I'm breaking even... It's very frustrating, and I wanted to ask as I've read back over your blog and you seem to have been on a similar journey to the one I'm in the early stages of...? I think a leak finding session is in order... non?

a -1 ptbb/100 winrate can go to a +5 after 1 ah-ha moment. Just focus on learning.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I'm confused Robb. You say the opposite seems true, and then you seem to agree with my original proposition than things are slower but less swingy at the higher stakes...? Hummm.

Sorry to hijack the thread I'm just trying to figure out how I was crushing the micros in the manner you described yourself for a few k hands but now for some reason I seem to have stalled. I'm not tilting off tons of BIs, I'm breaking even... It's very frustrating, and I wanted to ask as I've read back over your blog and you seem to have been on a similar journey to the one I'm in the early stages of...? I think a leak finding session is in order... non?

All the small/medium pots are MUCH less swingy at 50nl than they were at 10nl. But the BIG pots at 10nl - I was generally nearly 3 to 1 at getting my money all-in as a big favorite there. I could stack off with the worst of it 3 or 4 times per session and recover THAT session because of the donks willing to stack off with air.

Somewhat at 25nl and very much at 50nl, the small/medium pots are stable, reasonable - what you'd expect from TAGG's. So less swing, less variance. But when you play big pots, you're up against a much stronger range, typically. So instead of getting my money in as a big favorite 75% of the time, I'm trying hard to get my money in good half the the time. Fold equity helps, but I'm not winning even 60% of the big pots at 50nl.

That's where the variance is. You know you're playing well cause you're winning your share of small/med pots and, whenever you get to showdown, you find you had a reasonable plan - but so did the other guy. You know you're playing fine, and getting your money in good against his range, but there's not free stacks lying around all over the place like there are at the micros.

So the game is "stable" but has big swings. The hands at showdown are much closer in value than they are at 10nl. So you can pretty much guess what they have by the river. That's the "stable" part. But then you have to actually be able to beat it. That's the "swingy" part.

Hey guys I just want to thank you all for your input. Robb's response was very in depth about the multi tabling thing and I strongly agree with this information.

I'm really just trying to get through 10NL as quick as possible since playing only a few tables and watching donks min bet 10 cents into 90 cent pots can get seriously boring after awhile. (Anyone else know how this feels!?) I think once I'm properly rolled for 25NL I'll have to for sure decrease the amount of tables I'm playing since I'm sure theres more grinders the higher you go that need attention paid to. Also once I reach higher levels I understand that I'm going to need to dig for ever bit of value I can get, which will for sure involve playing fewer games. I'm just so grossed out with 10NL at the moment I'd like it to end soon lol. I couldn't imagine getting through 20k hands here on only 4 tables - hopefully I can rid myself of this mindset for the next step.

I've been playing for roughly a year and a half so I'm not entirely new to poker, however I'm taking a fresh start approach as I suffered from poor BR management in the past (used to play bigger games without proper BR, which is why 10NL is boring without my computer screen being littered with tables). Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm not a complete noob playing up to 16 tables (now that would be for sure suicide). Oh yeah and as soon as I just clear out of 10NL I'm for SURE dropping the # of tables I play so I can learn more at 25NL. I hear the jump from 25NL to 50NL is quite significant (I guess I've experienced this before actually) so I'll definately have to sharpen up my skills as soon as i can.

That's just a little insight on how I got to where I am now...pathetic I know, but again thanks for everyones input. I'm realzing that the posts from these forums are more valuable than the content of most poker books.

One more thing, Robb are you saying that once your winrate is solid and your play is really good that when your bankrolled for say 100NL then thats the time to add more tables because you'll be making some real cash - and of course loyalty programs pay off volume. This sounds pretty logical, earn the skills down low, and then once honed move up to a larger game. Once beating the larger game add as many tables necessary to increase profit and voila, $$$. Is this long term plan along correct lines of thinking?

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

One more thing, Robb are you saying that once your winrate is solid and your play is really good that when your bankrolled for say 100NL then thats the time to add more tables because you'll be making some real cash - and of course loyalty programs pay off volume. This sounds pretty logical, earn the skills down low, and then once honed move up to a larger game. Once beating the larger game add as many tables necessary to increase profit and voila, $$$. Is this long term plan along correct lines of thinking?

I'm saying that winning at 2.5 ptBB/100 6 tabling at 100nl FR will earn you about $25 / hour, so who cares if you can earn $6.25 an hour 16 tabling 10nl? The big hourly win rates are at the bigger stakes (with more rakeback, faster clearing bonuses, etc). So it makes the most sense to play fewer tables and learn MORE faster so that long term you'll be at the small/mid stakes faster.

From your description of where you're at, I would say you need to stay at 10nl playing just a few tables for the sake of learning poker discipline. You'll need more discipline to be successful at every level higher. I have a well-chronicled history (here on FTR) of bouncing back and forth between 10nl and 25nl, never getting any better, and doing stupid-ass things like trying to 16-table 10nl in an effort to "build a roll and move up."

I guess I'm just saying that if you learn to play poker, you'll soon have plenty of roll and plenty of success moving up levels. What you do when you get to 100nl will be to continue whatever things you've found in the previous 3 levels that made you a success. If that's adding tables, or playing 6max, or whatever.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

a -1 ptbb/100 winrate can go to a +5 after 1 ah-ha moment. Just focus on learning.

Really well said 'Rilla, and that's definitely what I'm trying to do. It's just frustrating to be destroying a level at one point and then only managing to break even the next. It must be a leak in my game, or perhaps I'm marginally tilting without realizing. I'm not sure what it is. Plus I'm a mac user so, no PT3 / HEM which makes self analysis even harder.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

One more thing, Robb are you saying that once your winrate is solid and your play is really good that when your bankrolled for say 100NL then thats the time to add more tables because you'll be making some real cash - and of course loyalty programs pay off volume. This sounds pretty logical, earn the skills down low, and then once honed move up to a larger game. Once beating the larger game add as many tables necessary to increase profit and voila, $$$. Is this long term plan along correct lines of thinking?

I'm saying that winning at 2.5 ptBB/100 6 tabling at 100nl FR will earn you about $25 / hour, so who cares if you can earn $6.25 an hour 16 tabling 10nl? The big hourly win rates are at the bigger stakes (with more rakeback, faster clearing bonuses, etc). So it makes the most sense to play fewer tables and learn MORE faster so that long term you'll be at the small/mid stakes faster.

From your description of where you're at, I would say you need to stay at 10nl playing just a few tables for the sake of learning poker discipline. You'll need more discipline to be successful at every level higher. I have a well-chronicled history (here on FTR) of bouncing back and forth between 10nl and 25nl, never getting any better, and doing stupid-ass things like trying to 16-table 10nl in an effort to "build a roll and move up."

I guess I'm just saying that if you learn to play poker, you'll soon have plenty of roll and plenty of success moving up levels. What you do when you get to 100nl will be to continue whatever things you've found in the previous 3 levels that made you a success. If that's adding tables, or playing 6max, or whatever.

Thanks alot for the advice. This makes sense, as I see you have learned from experience.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

[ I'm not sure what it is. Plus I'm a mac user so, no PT3 / HEM which makes self analysis even harder.

Which OS are you using ? If its OSX can you try WINE to see if you can get PT3/HEM to run . Alternatively have you looked in your local free advert papers/freecycle for an old PC going cheap.Export your hand historys to the PC and just use the pc to take advantage of the analysis features of PT/HEM so that the speed of the pc wouldn't be critical as you would still be playing on the mac. This could be a cheap compromise in order to find /plug leaks.
edit : did a bit of googling and found the following link which you may find helpful.
http://www.pokertracker.com/forums/v...php?f=15&t=729

Sorry if it's been said already but I am watching the Canada JR game and may have missed it, but nobody seems to have mentioned that winrates are very tough to get a handle on at the micros since your not usually at a stake long enough to get a significant sample. Depending on winrates you will move up with 20BI's (min I prefer 25). Here's something I posted a while ago.

You need 20BI's to play a level, that is 2000BB

you need 2000BB's to double your roll and move up and at $10NL you need 2500BB for $25NL



@1BB/100 x 200000 hands, move up

@2BB/100 x 100000 hands, move up

@3BB/100 x 66667 hands, move up

@4BB/100 x 50000 hands, move up

@5BB/100 x 40000 hands, move up

@6BB/100 x 33333 hands, move up

@7BB/100 x 28500 hands, move up

@8BB/100 x 25000 hands, move up

@9BB/100 x 22222 hands, move up

@10BB/100 x 20000 hands, move up

I personally don't think improving your hourly rate by playing more tables at the micros is necessary since your invariably going to bottom out on skill ahead of BR . Play quality hands, get a better winrate since it is such a short trip anyway.

Finally had an "Aha!" moment today.

Resisted the urge to play and instead sat down and read through my last 2 weeks hands histories. Believe me doing this without a tracker is tough lol. Thought a lot about where I was losing money. Compared my ranges to those stated in some of the (excellent) digest threads and realized that in general I've been playing way too tight. Specifically though, I've never really tailored my ranges properly to position (ldfo). In particular in late position. So while I understood not to play certain hands UTG and understood clearly the implications of position in PF play, I hadn't been allowing myself to play nearly enough hands in LP.

So I wrote myself out a whole new hand starting chart, with wider ranges in mid and late position and even tightened up my play UTG.

Finally I decided if I was going to play I was going to take detailed notes and really focus. I did this and it's brilliant. I'm sure some of you remember the very first time a read on someone really paid off. It's like you're inside their head! They do EXACTLY what you expected them to lol.

Anyway, I stuck to 2 tables and played about 300 hands. Ended up up a buy in and a half.

Hopefully something of a breakthrough, and (yet again) all inspired by a number of the discussions on this message board. Thanks guys.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

So I wrote myself out a whole new hand starting chart, with wider ranges in mid and late position and even tightened up my play UTG.

Finally I decided if I was going to play I was going to take detailed notes and really focus. I did this and it's brilliant. I'm sure some of you remember the very first time a read on someone really paid off. It's like you're inside their head! They do EXACTLY what you expected them to lol.

Anyway, I stuck to 2 tables and played about 300 hands. Ended up up a buy in and a half.

Just remember there'll be some down swings, but yes, this is EXACTLY the right way to go. Taking really detailed notes is a pain, but I think it's worth it to do it in depth for a few k hands. After a while, you'll develop short hand notation.

There's a great link to notetaking by Pokey on that other forum (Spoony gets credit - I stole it from him):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-tl-dr-332863/

I will also mention that there are short cuts to note taking. My favorites are the variants of "stacks off light," a great note to see when you're about to get into a big pot with villain 'cuz you have KK on a Q-high board:

SOL ~ stack off light (less than TPTK)
SOvL ~ stack off very light (2nd pair, 2 overs, GSSD's)
SOvvL ~ stacks off very very light (with total air, bottom pair, underpair to entire flop, etc.)
SOLpre ~ stacks off light preflop (call all-in shove w/ 77 or AJ, etc)

As you can see, the basic note has suffixes. I sometimes note the actual hand or circumstances where he stacked off. "SOLpre 44 ss40" would mean he was short stacked and had only 40bb's when he stacked off w/ 44 preflop.

I also use the prefix C3BL "calls 3bets light" when villain flats a 3bet w/ AJo and C3BvL when he does it with KTo. I'm 3betting for value with a nice wide range. I guess you see the pattern. You can make your own, but I thought it might help to see what I've worked on. You also need to note when villains prove capable of "floating," or calling a cbet with air/overs (or whatever weak hands they float with). I use the prefix FLT and generally note hand and flop, since it's usually easiest to just see from there what he's capable of.

I'm sure others will give good advice on this topic, too. GLGLGL.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The underlined is fine but the bold is not. To make that win-rate go up, focus on quality of play whenever your mind is sharp instead of adding more tables.

I took your advice, in fact I stepped down to 5NL (.01/02 deepstack) and I opened 4 tables. I've done this for a couple days and my win rate is in the 9-11BB/100 range so far over 1.5K hands (not really a sample i know and it includes some hands from awhile back) but the rate is far from the point - my awareness has increased and I've noticed that I'm more positionaly aware and I feel sort of 'in the game' to the point where I can anticipate my opponents moves based on my reads.

Lowering the # of open tables definately brings the feel and flow aspect back into the game rather than robotic chaos clicking over numerous boxes labeled POKER TABLE in hopes of moving up 'faster'.

I've decided to listen to you - and actually apply what your telling me here, since afterall, I'm here to improve and it's certain you know what your talking about. Once I feel I'm crushing 5NL I'll be back at 10NL since I want that level's win rate higher before I jump up to 25NL. It's gotta improve be if I aspire to play bigger games and I know it.

fwiw - if you've dropped to 2NL id advise (as im sure others would and will) that you buy in for $2 ie. 100big blinds. the reason for this is when you play 10NL/25NL/50NL etcetc then you will most likely be buyign in for 100big blinds.

getting used to playing with that size stack early on will definaltely help. gl.

Originally Posted by sil693

fwiw - if you've dropped to 2NL id advise (as im sure others would and will) that you buy in for $2 ie. 100big blinds. the reason for this is when you play 10NL/25NL/50NL etcetc then you will most likely be buyign in for 100big blinds.

getting used to playing with that size stack early on will definaltely help. gl.

Thanks for the heads up. I've been mainly switching back and forth to get a feel for a slightly different game (deepstack experience at a low level without risking big monies). I find the $5 BI is a good test because you'll end up playing against shorties under $1, $2 guys, $3 guys, $5, and then once your BI is above, someone up to $8. It really makes you fully aware of position and how your hand slection needs to change based on the players you will face IMO. For someone who is unaware of how deeper stacks tend to change the game dynamics it would for sure be very wise to BI for $2 as they might just spew hard with all those chips in behind. Between both levels I'm going to start going through hands and looking for trouble spots and begin posting HH's soon. Hopefully you guys will be able to advise in that department as well.

The microstakes players are so incredibly exploitable that I would say 5ptbb and less means you'll have to catch up if you want to beat the higher stakes. Respectable is 10ptbb+
I mean seriously... people are stacking off with tpnk. Just bet your good hands hard and fold your bad hands and you should be over 10ptbb.
You're all probably calling way too much and not raising enough - both in number of hands and amount.

Originally Posted by oskar

You're all probably calling way too much and not raising enough - both in number of hands and amount.

I'm 14/8/3 according to pokertracker (FR stats). If anything I'm not limping into enough pots because there is huge value in limping in a bunch of suited connectors etc. due to the fact that most pots are multiway and offerring incredible implied+pot odds to play garbage hands since the stations will pay you off when you hit.

Good assumption that I'm loose/weak preflop though since I play micro. IMO loose/weak can't even get a positive win rate, regargless of level.

Did I mention this win rate is reflected by the fact that I was playing UP TO 16 TABLES AT A TIME. Please read the post in full next time to gather all the information you need to write a reply. Therefore I have decided to only play up to 4 tables at a time for awhile and see if my win rate begins to rise. If not then I have serious work to do.

Oh BTW your post didn't really help...+1

Actually he's probably right on. See first off your talking preflop and he's talking overall. Your preflop stats actually aren't that good, and there is a difference between limping in EP and calling multiway IP w/SC. But since your a 16 tabling winning player you won't get any help from this post either.

anything over 10bb/100 is good enough (5ptbb/100 which needs phased out)

> 20bb/100 (10ptbb/100) is killing it. You shouldn't be at the stake long enough to determine how much of it is a heater.

Originally Posted by jyms

Actually he's probably right on. See first off your talking preflop and he's talking overall. Your preflop stats actually aren't that good, and there is a difference between limping in EP and calling multiway IP w/SC. But since your a 16 tabling winning player you won't get any help from this post either.

14/8 isn't loose weak..

14 seems low (I think Renton's post on small stakes ring games said 20/10 is roughly what those stats will be), but it's hard to really play that much when playing average of 12 tables...therefore I am losing value - but my $/hour is higher because I am 12/tabling. But, now I have realized that $/hour is meaningless at micro because its pennies and as much as I'm here to build my bankroll, I'm here to learn while doing it, and I'm accepting the fact that I'm not learning enough by playing too many tables. I'll save the 16 table thing for when I'm crushing 200NL and looking to become a Supernova. For now its down to 4 tables at 2NL to work on plugging leaks and getting the win rate up.


As for the SC thing: I understand when its right to play these types of hands. If my V$IP is 14 do you really think I'm open limping them in ep?

Originally Posted by sil693

just for clarification:

BB = big bets = 2x the big blind. (1ptbb = 1BB)
bb = blig blind

a respectable winrate for the micros is between 3BB - 5BB / 100 imho.

Just to make sure I understand, below is a screen shot of someone else's PokerTracker stats.



In green, it shows 2.34 BB/100 hands. By my interpretation, it means that player is making 4.68 big blinds per 100 hands or 2.34 big bets (a big bet being 2 big blinds) per 100 hands. Is that correct?

Jason, this looks like Holdem Manager to me. In HEM, the capital letters BB/100 means "big bets / 100" or ptBB/100. For bb/100, it's "big blinds / 100." You can display your stats in either format, based on which you like best.

And you're right: since it's about 100k hands, the win rate of 2.34 translates into about 4.6k in winnings, or HALF the bb/100 win rate of 4.68 (which isn't displayed).

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Originally Posted by oskar

You're all probably calling way too much and not raising enough - both in number of hands and amount.

I'm 14/8/3 according to pokertracker (FR stats). If anything I'm not limping into enough pots because there is huge value in limping in a bunch of suited connectors etc. due to the fact that most pots are multiway and offerring incredible implied+pot odds to play garbage hands since the stations will pay you off when you hit.

Good assumption that I'm loose/weak preflop though since I play micro. IMO loose/weak can't even get a positive win rate, regargless of level.

Did I mention this win rate is reflected by the fact that I was playing UP TO 16 TABLES AT A TIME. Please read the post in full next time to gather all the information you need to write a reply. Therefore I have decided to only play up to 4 tables at a time for awhile and see if my win rate begins to rise. If not then I have serious work to do.

Oh BTW your post didn't really help...+1

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS REPLY REALLY SUCKED.....IMHO
Take what you can use and shake off the rest but to blast somebody for trying to help is LAME.

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Originally Posted by oskar

You're all probably calling way too much and not raising enough - both in number of hands and amount.

I'm 14/8/3 according to pokertracker (FR stats). If anything I'm not limping into enough pots because there is huge value in limping in a bunch of suited connectors etc. due to the fact that most pots are multiway and offerring incredible implied+pot odds to play garbage hands since the stations will pay you off when you hit.

Good assumption that I'm loose/weak preflop though since I play micro. IMO loose/weak can't even get a positive win rate, regargless of level.

Did I mention this win rate is reflected by the fact that I was playing UP TO 16 TABLES AT A TIME. Please read the post in full next time to gather all the information you need to write a reply. Therefore I have decided to only play up to 4 tables at a time for awhile and see if my win rate begins to rise. If not then I have serious work to do.

Oh BTW your post didn't really help...+1

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS REPLY REALLY SUCKED.....IMHO
Take what you can use and shake off the rest but to blast somebody for trying to help is LAME.

Well he did make an assumption without many details. All I did was ask a question regarding a typical win rate. The post didn't help because it didn't answer the question, it was just a satement about microstakes players in general. I probably should have included I was short stacking and 16 tabling - But it's good to see that we're on topic. Nice post.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

THIS REPLY REALLY SUCKED.....IMHO
Take what you can use and shake off the rest but to blast somebody for trying to help is LAME.

Well he did make an assumption without many details. All I did was ask a question regarding a typical win rate. The post didn't help because it didn't answer the question, it was just a satement about microstakes players in general. I probably should have included I was short stacking and 16 tabling - But it's good to see that we're on topic. Nice post.

We don't need thousands of details here. You say you're short stacking w/ 14/6 preflop stats and (earlier) were talking about value for limping in with sc's? Jeez. No offense, but that's enough info right there for me to line up with Oskar on this one. These details point to bigtime problems with your game, imo. (Unless you mean 80bb short stacking, or you're playing in the world's most loose passive games.)

Maybe Oskar and I are wrong. That's fine. I've been wrong before. But start posting some HH's so we can see your playing style and how you make decisions. If you have leaks, posting 15 - 20 hands of different types will identify most of the biggest ones.

Please don't get upset. I'm NOT trying to start anything. Trust me, I suck at poker, and people have said so. And when I listen to what they tell me about the leaks they think might be in my game, THAT'S when I can improve. Good luck.

I was actually short stacking with 9/7 stats my bad.
My full ring game was roughly 14/8

I didn't even round the decimals, I think it might make a difference
The 9 is 9.01 and the 7 is 7.84. If I round that is more like 9/8, which resembles my push/folding strategy since limping was done not nearly as often. This was at 10NL.

My 14/8 stats were from 2NL full ring, not at 10NL. Sorry I didn't mention all of this.

I'm done my short stacking experiment, now I am playing 2NL (not short stacking). Once I get some more hands going at full ring 2NL I'm going to post some trouble spots for you guys to analyze.

Originally Posted by Robb

Jason, this looks like Holdem Manager to me. In HEM, the capital letters BB/100 means "big bets / 100" or ptBB/100. For bb/100, it's "big blinds / 100." You can display your stats in either format, based on which you like best.

And you're right: since it's about 100k hands, the win rate of 2.34 translates into about 4.6k in winnings, or HALF the bb/100 win rate of 4.68 (which isn't displayed).

The scree shot is from Poker Tracker 2, but you are still correct its 2.34ptbb/100 which equals 4.68bb/100.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I didn't even round the decimals, I think it might make a difference
The 9 is 9.01 and the 7 is 7.84. If I round that is more like 9/8, which resembles my push/folding strategy since limping was done not nearly as often. This was at 10NL.

My 14/8 stats were from 2NL full ring, not at 10NL. Sorry I didn't mention all of this.

I'm done my short stacking experiment, now I am playing 2NL (not short stacking). Once I get some more hands going at full ring 2NL I'm going to post some trouble spots for you guys to analyze.

This sounds a lot better than the earlier post. Sorry if I overgeneralized. Srsly, start posting either screen shots of stats (including position stats) and lots of HH's. That will get very specific info to you about what you might do to improve.

i beat 2nl at 11 ptbb. my biggest advice for you is to fold top pair and probably two pair, if you face a re-raise or check-raise. these players do not do this with air, they're mostly weak tight

Originally Posted by AFchung

i beat 2nl at 11 ptbb. my biggest advice for you is to fold top pair and probably two pair, if you face a re-raise or check-raise. these players do not do this with air, they're mostly weak tight

So true. I've noticed micro players either NEVER play back at you (weak-tights) or they're maniacs (raising flop with top/weak and low flush draws to try and drive you out). I think the key to beating these games is figuring out which opponent your up against and then adjusting. Sound about right?

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I didn't even round the decimals, I think it might make a difference
The 9 is 9.01 and the 7 is 7.84. If I round that is more like 9/8, which resembles my push/folding strategy since limping was done not nearly as often. This was at 10NL.

My 14/8 stats were from 2NL full ring, not at 10NL. Sorry I didn't mention all of this.

I'm done my short stacking experiment, now I am playing 2NL (not short stacking). Once I get some more hands going at full ring 2NL I'm going to post some trouble spots for you guys to analyze.

This sounds a lot better than the earlier post. Sorry if I overgeneralized. Srsly, start posting either screen shots of stats (including position stats) and lots of HH's. That will get very specific info to you about what you might do to improve.

No worries man, I should have taken the time to post the numbers properly without trying to cite them off the top of my head. Do you think it would be a good idea if once I got around 5-6k hands or so at 2NL to start a thread highlighting key stats such as W$SD, 3-bet%, Att to steal etc.? Then I could get some general direction as to what I'm probably doing wrong based on whether or not certain stats are too high/low. (I'll play around with the filters a bit too and get some postional stats like you recommended).

I would wait until 10k. It's hard to draw any conclusions on a sample smaller than that. And yes, just post a "stats checkup" here in the BC. Folks will reply.

Originally Posted by sil693

fwiw - if you've dropped to 2NL id advise (as im sure others would and will) that you buy in for $2 ie. 100big blinds. the reason for this is when you play 10NL/25NL/50NL etcetc then you will most likely be buyign in for 100big blinds.

I think I disagree with this. It's fine if all villians have about the same 100bb stack, but if others have bigger stacks you're going to be losing value on your monster hands. I like to moderate my stack to be close to the bigger stacks at the table.

Last night at 5NL, I bought in for $5 but after a while a couple villians had around $10 stacks so I went to the cashier and got mo money (max $10). Later in the game, I hit a set of queens and doubled up, making 2x what I would have with only a $5 stack.

I'd be interested in the Reg's thoughts on this.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Originally Posted by AFchung

i beat 2nl at 11 ptbb. my biggest advice for you is to fold top pair and probably two pair, if you face a re-raise or check-raise. these players do not do this with air, they're mostly weak tight

So true. I've noticed micro players either NEVER play back at you (weak-tights) or they're maniacs (raising flop with top/weak and low flush draws to try and drive you out). I think the key to beating these games is figuring out which opponent your up against and then adjusting. Sound about right?

Yes and that's what makes poker hard. Some villians will spew and bluff with air or very weak top pair and others only play back with very good hands. I'm working on my reads (playing only 2 tables) because of this dichotomy.

It's fine to buyin for 200BB if it's an option. Note that $5NL is the only level at stars where this is possible (or is it possible at $2NL as well?). Once you get to 10NL and over max BI is 100bbs. BUT only do so if you are comfortable playing that deep AND you are adequately rolled since you're effectively doubling the stakes from a bankroll perspective.

I agree with much that have been said. Microstakes is- no offense intended- is so incredibly easy that a winrate of 5 big bets per 100 is mediocre. Thats like 40 cent/100 on a 2-4 cent table. 10 big bets per hour is good.

These guys suck monkeyballs on the turn and river play. You should try to avoid big bluffs preflop and flop, but use the turn or the river for bluffs. If you cut drastically on your tables you will learn the game at a much faster rate, although with a short term smaller profit.

In no time at all u will be 4 tabling 100 NL making 24 dollars an hour.

Strive for excellence, gl
:P