Two hands I folded - wrong?

1) 8 players, late position, (pocket 5's)
I call the blind, 4 other players call.
flop (2h, 7s, Js), everyone checks
turn (5s) and second player raises big.
I suspect a flush and folds with the others.
Was this too chicken

2) 6 players (Jc 9h) on big blind
call around the table
flop (J 9 Q)
I place a big bet, one oponent calls
turn (K) (no flush)
I check, he raises big time and I fold.
Did I do anything wrong here at any point

Originally Posted by Borax

1) 8 players, late position, (pocket 5's)
I call the blind, 4 other players call.
flop (2h, 7s, Js), everyone checks
turn (5s) and second player raises big.
I suspect a flush and folds with the others.
Was this too chicken

2nd player could easily be trying to buy this. Or have made two pair (though them having the third 5 is unlikely). Where was your position on this? I like raising on the flop in late position (if it's been checked around to you). I guess the questions here are how does the raiser play? Does he bluff / try to buy the pot?

Originally Posted by Borax

2) 6 players (Jc 9h) on big blind
call around the table
flop (J 9 Q)
I place a big bet, one oponent calls
turn (K) (no flush)
I check, he raises big time and I fold.
Did I do anything wrong here at any point

You basically told him that the K scared you. Yes, it did infact scare you, but checking here, especially if he'd seen similar folds from you before, just screams "bet big and you take the pot." He could read your big bet as an attempt to buy the pot and your check as a "well, that didn't work, I hope I can keep from putting more in." In this situation, I like a moderate bet - at least as much as your previous bet (which has become a smaller bet since the pot is bigger) probable bet here = 1/4 to 1/2 the pot.

What are you calling big bets? 4xBB? 1/2 pot? Pot sized? 2xPot?

- Jeffrey

for the first hand my position was late. He rasied the others folded and I was last to fold. The bet was more than half my chips. Blinds were 40/80, and the bet about 800.


for the second hand I had 1500 chips and my first bet was 500. Blinds 80/160. He had about 2500 chips and after my check put in about 700.

Never check a flop checked to you in the last position unless you expect somebody will check-raise (ie. they did 2-3 times already). Make them pay to play. You will separate the good hands from the chasers. If you did this, then you would have an easy call on the turn with hand 1 if anybody stuck around.

The second hand warrants a bet too. You have a good hand. If he rereaises then, you should fold based on your read of him.

I'm just reiterating with Jeffrey says. He is correct.

Hand 1:

I agree with the idea of raising on flop, especially since it was checked around to you. Someone could be slowplaying, but they will call or raise. Most others will fold their junk. This way you will have more information going into the turn, and you will have the advantage of being the raiser.

Hand 2:

I know it is hard to bet at a pot when you feel like you could be throwing your money away, but it will help you make a more informed decision. I find it is easier for me to bet big again into a scary pot if I think of it as buying information. Your only way of knowing if he is for real after checking is to re-raise him (check raise), but by then you are most likely pot committed and wouldn't be able to let it go if he did have the straight.

hand 1)
betting into 8 players even if it's checked to you isn't exactly smart with single lone pair. general rule is you should rarely try to bluff more than 2 people. on turn you have three of a kind (hidden as well) the bettor might have the flush but board will pair something like 25% of the time to give you the fullhouse and often if it does, you can stack people who can't let go of their flush. so this should be a call unless you need to call off bigger than 25% of your stack



2) easy lay down bottom 2 pair on co-ordinate board indicates trouble, you will often be facing something like made straight, higher 2 pair, set etc
generally you need to be the aggressor and when you get played back at, I would lay it down

Originally Posted by AllinLife

hand 1)
betting into 8 players even if it's checked to you isn't exactly smart with single lone pair.

Umm..why not? If it was checked he may well have the best hand. Someone could be in there with ATo for instance. They'd have no reason to stay in at this point against a bet. But if the turn/river that you don't bet brings either of those, you're SOL. Hell, even someone with a 7 would probably fold if they know a thing or two about the game. I agree with your assessment of how he should have played the turn, but I'm curious about your statement to check the flop.[/quote]

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by AllinLife

2) easy lay down bottom 2 pair on co-ordinate board indicates trouble, you will often be facing something like made straight, higher 2 pair, set etc
generally you need to be the aggressor and when you get played back at, I would lay it down

Are you saying he should or shouldn't have bet out when the K came?

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by AllinLife

hand 1)
betting into 8 players even if it's checked to you isn't exactly smart with single lone pair.

Umm..why not? If it was checked he may well have the best hand. Someone could be in there with ATo for instance. They'd have no reason to stay in at this point against a bet. But if the turn/river that you don't bet brings either of those, you're SOL. Hell, even someone with a 7 would probably fold if they know a thing or two about the game. I agree with your assessment of how he should have played the turn, but I'm curious about your statement to check the flop.

- Jeffrey[/quote]

Do you honestly dont see why betting into 8 players suck when holding a hand with no redraw (other than 2 other fives) suck?

when you get called you have no idea where you are, nearly every card in the deck scares you (board pairing, over cards, straight/flush cards) from betting on turn...need I say more?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by AllinLife

2) easy lay down bottom 2 pair on co-ordinate board indicates trouble, you will often be facing something like made straight, higher 2 pair, set etc
generally you need to be the aggressor and when you get played back at, I would lay it down

Are you saying he should or shouldn't have bet out when the K came?

- Jeffrey

I wouldn't bet out because too many hands beat J9. the player in this hand should not have fired a big bet on the flop, rather a 1/2 pot bet and bet fullpot on blank turn. building big pot out of position with a vunerable hand is a nono

I'll agree that a more moderate flop bet followed by a decently strong turn bet would have been best in the second hand. I still like raising on that flop. He very well might have won it there.

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I'll agree that a more moderate flop bet followed by a decently strong turn bet would have been best in the second hand. I still like raising on that flop. He very well might have won it there.

- Jeffrey

ok let me ask you, how often do you stab with 8 ppl on the flop?

success rate?

Originally Posted by AllinLife

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I'll agree that a more moderate flop bet followed by a decently strong turn bet would have been best in the second hand. I still like raising on that flop. He very well might have won it there.

- Jeffrey

ok let me ask you, how often do you stab with 8 ppl on the flop?

success rate?

I think we're reading about different hands or something. He had 8 people at his table. 4 called the blinds to see the flop. I've successfully bluffed with 4 people + a mid pair quite a few times (if you would consider this a bluff). If you want to know a precise success rate, you'll have to wait 'til I hit my next milestone in my BR and buy PokerTracker.


Had the full 8 been in as I'm realizing you were talking about, I suppose it's different. Though checking when it's checked around the whole table already still seems a tad passive.
- Jeffrey

On 2, you have got to raise that Turn. Postflop rep that straight all day. If he has it then he'll reraise and let you know half the time, fold half the time, and you'll make money off the tards calling you down with a Q and the times you hit your 4 outs to the full house.

On 1, good laydown, too many limpers to make this profitable, spades beat you all day, but you do have 6 outs, so keep that in mind.

In the 1st hand you have 10 outs if you put your opponent on a flush (one5 and 3each of J,7,2) you have a 21% chance of winning and the pot is 800+4x80= 1120 you need at least 4:1 to call. so, fold. The bet smells funny, though. Overbetting the pot is often a sign of weakness.

In the 2nd 6players x 160 = 960chips in the pot. If you bet 500, that is a SMALL bet not a big one. You need to bet at least the pot to keep people from chasing. I would probably just go all in on the flop. Once you check on the turn, you have to fold to a bet, so the fold was right, but your timid bet was not.

Thanks alot for comments and discussion.
My basic conlusions from your comments would be:

1) Not a bad fold, but could also have taken the risk.

2) I should have bet smaller on the flop and bet again, a bit higher, on the turn.

AllinLife,
"Bluffing 8 players" isn't the intention. If everyone checks and you raise just 1xBB, you can usually get at least 1/2 the people out of the hand - improving your odds. This could be considered a semi-bluff, but it's a way to get information for cheap. If somebody reraises big, then you know they were going for a slow play and going to hurt you. If 1/2 the people call, then they figure another BB is worth seeing the flop because they have a potential hand. This seems to work for me. If everyone checks the flop, then you show strength again and either everyone folds, you get one caller, or you get reraised. I think you can make a more informed decision and weed out chasers this way.