In trouble with JJ

Villain is 47/5 over 81 hands, and I was running 12/10 over the same 81 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

BB ($1.98)
UTG ($1.79)
UTG+1 ($1.86)
MP1 ($3.79)
MP2 ($2.42)
Hero (MP3) ($2.83)
CO ($1.15)
Button ($2.50)
Villain (SB) ($8.28)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.14, 2 folds, Villain calls $0.13, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.12, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.60) 6, Q, 8 (4 players)
Villain checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.50, Villain calls $0.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.60) 8 (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $1, Villain calls $1

River: ($3.60) K (2 players)
Villain bets $3.60

Preflop, I 3-bet for value and to isolate and as it happens often at the micros, the isolation bit fails miserably as I get three callers. I know the 3-bet is too small with two limpers and the min raiser. I should have made this at least $0.20 I think. Miscalculated/misclicked that on the spot.

I won't bother trying to come up with an exact preflop range for villain, but it is quite large: any pocket pair, any broadways, suited connectors and 1-gappers 67+, two gappers J8+, K9+, A6+, etc. He likes to play any two suited, since I saw him limp J5s UTG, not to say that he would call a raise with this hand, but...

Flop: there is an overcard to my jacks and the board is drawy and everyone checked to me so I decided to bet here, well conscious of the possibility of being check-raised by a queen. I may already be beat, but I think it would be mad to give a free card to everyone in this spot.

Villain flat calls. What's his range here? I'd say Q9+, 67, 68, 78, 89, T8, J8, 66, 88, AK, flush draws and open ended straight draws. Would he raise a made hand? Not sure at all given villain's passivity and the propension to slowplay big made hands like sets at the micros. Stoving this I am a 1:2 underdog against his flop continuing range (33% equity).

He checks again on the turn and I find myself again in this spot where I am facing either a draw or a made hand that beats me. Since he checked to me, I tend to weigh a little heavier towards draws, but I really can't exclude anything from his flop range. He may still be in "trapping" mode or unsure whether his queen is good. He may also have picked up another flush draw here, or made trip 8's. My equity, if I don't discount the made hands for his check, is now only 25%. In light of this, I now wonder whether I should have bet the turn at all.

River is a K and completes a diamond flush draw and he leads big into me. I have $1.19 behind so my pot odds are 20%. Basically, he has to be bluffing more than 20% of the time here to make this a call. I don't think he is bluffing. I have only a pair of J's on a paired board with two overcards and a 3-flush. Reality check: I am beat. Fold, right?

Any comments appreciated. How could I have played this differently, bet sizes, ranges, should I have called this river, was it correct to bet the turn, etc Obviously having 3 callers preflop made this much worse since the pot is already well bloated on the flop.

Well played, now fold.

The turn bet is fine. Villain is continuing with much more than a Q or 8. Put him on a range where he'd do this and calculate your equity to find out how obvious a river fold this is.

I check the turn behind, but meh...

Originally Posted by Fnord

I check the turn behind, but meh...

I find it interesting that people more experienced than I am disagree on the turn bet.

Another thing is that if he really has a strong made hand on the turn like 3 of a kind, unless he is a total donk or has a full house or better, he should be seriously worried for his hand with the two flush draws and the pair on the board. If he is not betting in this spot with a made hand, it is probably either because he is not confident that the hand is good, such as a weak queen, or because he is slowplaying a monster.

That should make his holdings making trip 8's less likely, shouldn't it? So if I recalculate my equity on the turn against {QQ,88,66,AQs+,AcJc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ad8d,Ac7c,Ac6c, Ad6d,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,KQs,KcJc,KcTc,Kc9c,Q9s+,J cTc,Jc9c,Tc9c,97s,86s,76s,AQo+,KQo,Q9o+}, I now get 31% showdown equity. A little better. Still not sure at all he folds enough better hands like weak queens to warrant a bet though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA

LOL!!!

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA

haha, good laugh

Turn can be for pot control since we don't really want to be building a big pot in these situations. Be interested to hear others thoughts.

River is a fold - he's nearly always going to have a big hand here. Club draws that paired the King, backdoor diamonds or 8x is my guess.

PREFLOP. JsJc

JJ is a tricky hand. There will be lots of flops you don't like and cases where you'll need to fold if someone plays back. OTOH, I think a strong PFR is in order here. FWIW, I've had some difficulties playing the moderately strong hands after a min raise. With hands like AQ and JJ I often find myself having built a big pot, but not liking my post flop hand. So I would be less critical of just calling here than others...I suspect. Flat calling is not the end of the world.

Nevertheless, I like a PFR here. As you say your bet size is a just a bump lean. The 4x BB plus one for each limper formula takes you to 8x the BB whereas you PFR-ed 7x.

I don't like getting three callers. Not only do we now have three callers we have built a very big pot which put us in the post flop bind of either a) putting in too much money when we are beat; b) giving the draws easy odd to outdraw us. JJ is a tricky hand.

Going into the flop we'd love to see a J or two, uncoordinated undercards. We'd
hate to see an A or coordinated over cards (K--suited for example).


THE FLOP. 6c, Qd, 8c

One over card and a flush draw. I would put this flop about in the middle of my expectations. Not great but not terrible either. It is worthy of continuation bet despite the fact that we have three callers. I like a bet of 1/2 to 2/3 pot. I'd like to take the pot down, but will probably need to fold a raise. Raising a CB on this board with all these opps, is an almost sure sign that we are beat. If called I hope it will be someone I have position on and can see a cheap showdown with. After this bet we are not eager to put more money into the pot.

You bet .5 into a .6 pot and get only one caller.

We are now at a stage where hand reading is narrow enough to have value. We are in bad shape against any Q, any set, any over pair, or any two pair. We are about even money to a hand like AcKc. We are a slight favorite against flush draws with only one over card (e.g., Ac-rag club). We are in good shape against hands like A8 or 7T. And in great shape against unimproved smaller pocket pairs.

It seems that we are in pretty decent shape, close to the middle, against this range. But we aren't loving it.

THE TURN. 8d

This improves only a very small portion of our opps range of hands, something like A8. Either a check or a bet is justified here. As a fan of pot control I slightly prefer checking but betting is OK too. Most people will probably recommend betting here to make the flush draw pay.

You bet 1 into a 1.6 pot. A strong bet, but we are not quite pot committed. We can fold a huge raise or a big move on the river.

Your opp just calls.


THE RIVER. Kd

Initially it looks like only a slight bad card. However, our villian makes a monster bet telling us that we are beat. That sucks, we invested about half our stack into this pot but now have little choice but to fold.

**Fold.**

Looking backwards it is intereseting to note that Villian called your PFR out of the blinds with almost nothing invested, OOP, not knowing if there would be a ReR, and getting far less in terms of pot odds than opps who called after. This opp was probably pretty strong. AK, QQ or something like that.


As a final note here are a couple of jokes related to the difficulty of playing JJ.

1. There are three ways to play JJ and they are all wrong.

2. The best way to play JJ is raise before the flop and fold on the flop. Or as in the case ...on the river.


BTW, you did a very nice job of explaining yourself in the setup for the hand.

loved that youtube video X-D

Flat calling is not the end of the world.

mmmh, maybe not but unless we decide to take a super passive line for the whole hand, and wait for the lottery to hit, I hate playing JJ in a mutliway semi-limped pot (can't see the two limpers folding to MP2's minraise, not even talking of giving a good price to the CO and button to call in position).

I don't like flatting here. Heads up in position against a tight opponent, maybe.

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA

Tears of Pain.
OMG
Tears of Laughter.
LMAO

Thanks for the Laugh.

I would check the turn too, planning for the most part to either fold or call river depending on card and bet size. Prob leaning more towards fold though.

And as played obv fold river