TPTK -- What's the philosophy?

I, like many other beginners, have come to know the peril of TPTK. A few minutes ago in the BB with 1 limper and the SB completing I raise to 4x with AJ suited, and both call. Flop goes 7 J 3 rainbow. SB checks, I lead out with a PSB, UTG+1 calls, SB folds. Turn is another 3, another PSB, and another flat call. River is it doesn't matter, duh the guy had 33 for quads.

My question is: do we need to assume that guys are sitting on a set when they check/call on us when we have TPTK? I thought we bet for information, and I can't count the number of times I've stacked people with TPGK when I had TPTK. I know some alarm bells should be going off with the c/c but at what point is it self defeating to assume that? You could be good a good majority of the time and people are just floating looking to pair one of their hole cards.

Help?

...

Originally Posted by takesix

I, like many other beginners, have come to know the peril of TPTK. A few minutes ago in the BB with 1 limper and the SB completing I raise to 4x with AJ suited, and both call. Flop goes 7 J 3 rainbow. SB checks, I lead out with a PSB, UTG+1 calls, SB folds. Turn is another 3, another PSB, and another flat call. River is it doesn't matter, duh the guy had 33 for quads.

My question is: do we need to assume that guys are sitting on a set when they check/call on us when we have TPTK? I thought we bet for information, and I can't count the number of times I've stacked people with TPGK when I had TPTK. I know some alarm bells should be going off with the c/c but at what point is it self defeating to assume that? You could be good a good majority of the time and people are just floating looking to pair one of their hole cards.

Help?

no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

a bet between 1/2 - 2/3...

Typically, a set is for stacking people. It's a hidden hand and destroys non flush and non straight boards TPTK is for winning small pots and thinning the field post flop if you still have 2 or 3 callers. Use your TPTK to make value bets to chase out draws post flop, or at least make them pay. If someone is calling pot sized bets on the flop and turn then slow down. You will rarely if ever stack someone with TPTK so don't try and don't get exited when they are throwing out missles at you when you hold AK or KQ and the board is rainbow with you hitting a pair.

no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much.

Well I had seen the guy on maybe 4 of the previous 10 hands do what to me looked like "floating"... he'd call a flop bet, with a turn check he'd bet and they'd fold. Or call the flop bet, raise after the turn check and after a turn call, they'd check the river and he'd bet hard, and they'd fold. I tend to 4 table, so for me to notice something like that means he probably did it more than 4 times in that 10 hand span.

What should have struck me was there were NO draws out there at all, rainbow, at best an inside straight to draw to so yeah, 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet would have been better -- I just kind of wanted to take it down and by the time I realized (river, i put him on 77) the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ.

Originally Posted by takesix

...the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ.

right so don't build big pots w/o big hands.

Originally Posted by takesix

no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much.

Well I had seen the guy on maybe 4 of the previous 10 hands do what to me looked like "floating"... he'd call a flop bet, with a turn check he'd bet and they'd fold. Or call the flop bet, raise after the turn check and after a turn call, they'd check the river and he'd bet hard, and they'd fold. I tend to 4 table, so for me to notice something like that means he probably did it more than 4 times in that 10 hand span.

What should have struck me was there were NO draws out there at all, rainbow, at best an inside straight to draw to so yeah, 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet would have been better -- I just kind of wanted to take it down and by the time I realized (river, i put him on 77) the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ.

So in other words you're saying you put him on a set of sevens, the winning hand, and you decide to try to take down the pot??? Does that make any sense at all???

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by aokrongly

So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

a bet between 1/2 - 2/3...

Anything less than 2/3 on the flop is asking for trouble. I think most players generally perceive a 1/2 pot bet as weak and you're therefore just asking draws to come along for the ride. Yes, you want them to call but only when it is a mistake for them to do so. TPTK is a vulnerable hand, which means you need to isolate and play it fast. While a set may be able to "hide" behind a PSB, if you're being check/called or smoothcalled then caution on the turn is a given. Then making a weaker 1/2 pot bet is appropriate, as it will likely stimulate a raise from a set with only 1 more street to go.

Originally Posted by ALLinWIT_72

So in other words you're saying you put him on a set of sevens, the winning hand, and you decide to try to take down the pot??? Does that make any sense at all???

Hey, I've been wrong before.

Also, figuring it out on the river was a little late. I guess I coulda saved $5, at the possible expense of $45. At that stage I might as well hope.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by aokrongly

So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

a bet between 1/2 - 2/3...

Anything less than 2/3 on the flop is asking for trouble. I think most players generally perceive a 1/2 pot bet as weak and you're therefore just asking draws to come along for the ride. Yes, you want them to call but only when it is a mistake for them to do so. TPTK is a vulnerable hand, which means you need to isolate and play it fast. While a set may be able to "hide" behind a PSB, if you're being check/called or smoothcalled then caution on the turn is a given. Then making a weaker 1/2 pot bet is appropriate, as it will likely stimulate a raise from a set with only 1 more street to go.

i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds.

the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go

I guess I coulda saved $5, at the possible expense of $45. At that stage I might as well hope.

So then we can assume your playing a $0.25/$0.50 table with your $1000 roll. Let's not even start BR management because it's been covered to death, but if you make this play 10 times that's a buy-in, @ any limit. And if you have the attitude that it's 1:9 as a value bet....It's the river, too late for value, It's time to show winning hands. Putting guys on a hand at the river is too late as well, the information has been given, or not, depending on previous betting.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds.

No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds.

No + doesn't = +EV

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds.

No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds.

He was saying he only bets 1/2 pot because he's really good at laying down his TPTK when draws complete. Since he's not offering his opp. implied odds, he feels comfortable only betting 1/2 pot, which is plenty to give them incorrect immediate odds.

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds.

No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds.

He was saying he only bets 1/2 pot because he's really good at laying down his TPTK when draws complete. Since he's not offering his opp. implied odds, he feels comfortable only betting 1/2 pot, which is plenty to give them incorrect immediate odds.

correct sir!

Note to self: martin is tight/weak

Note to Biondino. Check your PM's.

Originally Posted by biondino

Note to self: martin is tight/weak