TPTK trouble

The biggest problem I have with TPTK is how to play a big raised pot against multiple callers.

At the Bodog $100 table on my first hand, I was dealt AQ in late position. There were 3 limpers, so I raised to $7 and there were 4 callers. This meant on the flop there was about $29. The flop was good, Q79 rainbow, giving me TPTK. It was checked around to me, so I bet $22. An early position player called. Everyone else folded.

The turn completes the rainbow with a 2, not completing any draws. My problem comes here. How do I handle this situation, on the turn, if it is checked to me? I could likely be up against a dominated pair, a straight draw or a set. The flop call and the turn check didn't really give me any info (no Pokertracker on Bodog, either), but I was covered.

I think the right move is to bet, but there's $73 in the pot (-3 in rake). I have $71 left in my stack. A normal bet should be at least half the pot. If I bet $40 I have $31 left. If I am reraised, I can't just fold to less than min-raise, so I am effectively all in if I bet. If I bet (either $40 or all in), I am risking donking off my buy-in with TPTK.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by PokerFreak

The biggest problem I have with TPTK is how to play a big raised pot against multiple callers.

At the Bodog $100 table on my first hand, I was dealt AQ in late position. There were 3 limpers, so I raised to $7 and there were 4 callers. This meant on the flop there was about $29. The flop was good, Q79 rainbow, giving me TPTK. It was checked around to me, so I bet $22. An early position player called. Everyone else folded.

The turn completes the rainbow with a 2, not completing any draws. My problem comes here. How do I handle this situation, on the turn, if it is checked to me? I could likely be up against a dominated pair, a straight draw or a set. The flop call and the turn check didn't really give me any info (no Pokertracker on Bodog, either), but I was covered.

I think the right move is to bet, but there's $73 in the pot (-3 in rake). I have $71 left in my stack. A normal bet should be at least half the pot. If I bet $40 I have $31 left. If I am reraised, I can't just fold to less than min-raise, so I am effectively all in if I bet. If I bet (either $40 or all in), I am risking donking off my buy-in with TPTK.

Thoughts?

try not to play huge pots with one pair. maybe bet less on the flop, maybe raise less pre-flop. as played on the turn i would check behind and call most bets on the river or value bet if checked to.

yeah i like martins line, but if he's on a draw, you're giving him a free card which in turn could break you. which you would bet the turn and if he calls, check behind on the river. but that check on the river would be more read dependant, as if he does have a queen you could value bet him.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

try not to play huge pots with one pair. maybe bet less on the flop, maybe raise less pre-flop.

Both were not really options here. His $7 raise already got 4 callers. And on the flop he has to weed them out so he can't minbet there.

I think all three options are fine: push the turn, value bet the turn, or check behind. I would probably go with the check/call line. You might very well be ahead though.

but if he's on a draw, you're giving him a free card which in turn could break you

There aren't any 'obvious' draws like flush or straight, so if Villain is behind your TPTK, you're only really letting him draw to a 5-outer or something, possibly even a 3-outer if he is dominated with Qx. Not too bad.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

try not to play huge pots with one pair. maybe bet less on the flop, maybe raise less pre-flop.

Both were not really options here. His $7 raise already got 4 callers. And on the flop he has to weed them out so he can't minbet there.

if raising AQ like this pre-flop gets you into trouble often then maybe stop doing this. you could raise more but that gets tricky too. you can bet less on the flop w/o min-betting - i'm sure that was a joke though lol. but since that many people called the pfr in the 1st place you're probably just doomed to develop a big pot anyways - just a sucky situation.

I bet $40 on the turn, was reraised all in and busted by a set of 7s. Felt like a donk getting stacked with a pair. I guess checking the turn would be the right move next time. It's already heads up and a call on the river to a reasonable bet would probably have a pretty high EV with a hand like this.

On a tangent, how would you handle the same situation from early position. Say you raise with AK under the gun, and are in the same place after the flop and turn (more callers for a smaller pfr). Do you check the turn and invite a steal attempt, or do you go for it with TPTK?

Lately I've been wondering how -EV it would be to forgo playing TPTK past the flop entirely. Like, if your flop bet doesn't take it down, don't put any more $$ in, unless it's calling minbets on the turn and river, or something. I feel like betting TPTK hard puts you in such marginal spots, and at low buyins, the money is in non-marginal situations, i.e. set-camping, or more specifically, in stacking people who play TPTK too hard.
Any thoughts on this?

I think the long run your TPTK played past the flop is making good money. You get a lot of value out of guys calling down with TPGK, something else that's crappier, or a draw. Obviously you are going to run into sets and two pair, but i think in the long run it's +EV.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Lately I've been wondering how -EV it would be to forgo playing TPTK past the flop entirely. Like, if your flop bet doesn't take it down, don't put any more $$ in, unless it's calling minbets on the turn and river, or something. I feel like betting TPTK hard puts you in such marginal spots, and at low buyins, the money is in non-marginal situations, i.e. set-camping, or more specifically, in stacking people who play TPTK too hard.
Any thoughts on this?

Try it and you'll see how you are leaking like crazy, not to mention that you'll be sitting on your ass 99% of the time doing nothing.

Originally Posted by jackvance

not to mention that you'll be sitting on your ass 99% of the time doing nothing.

i've found that this actually doesn't bother me lol.

Try it and you'll see how you are leaking like crazy, not to mention that you'll be sitting on your ass 99% of the time doing nothing.

Yeah, no, I know. I've just been losing with TPTK a lot lately. I know it's +EV in the long run.

Btw, how do you have 1,100 posts since March, Jack? And I thought I spent too much time on this site...

Originally Posted by PokerFreak

The biggest problem I have with TPTK is how to play a big raised pot against multiple callers.

At the Bodog $100 table on my first hand, I was dealt AQ in late position. There were 3 limpers, so I raised to $7 and there were 4 callers. This meant on the flop there was about $29. The flop was good, Q79 rainbow, giving me TPTK. It was checked around to me, so I bet $22. An early position player called. Everyone else folded.

The turn completes the rainbow with a 2, not completing any draws. My problem comes here. How do I handle this situation, on the turn, if it is checked to me? I could likely be up against a dominated pair, a straight draw or a set. The flop call and the turn check didn't really give me any info (no Pokertracker on Bodog, either), but I was covered.

I think the right move is to bet, but there's $73 in the pot (-3 in rake). I have $71 left in my stack. A normal bet should be at least half the pot. If I bet $40 I have $31 left. If I am reraised, I can't just fold to less than min-raise, so I am effectively all in if I bet. If I bet (either $40 or all in), I am risking donking off my buy-in with TPTK.

Thoughts?

Reads.

Now you know he likes to limp in EP with a lot of middle pairs. If he flops his set, he check/calls to the raiser on the flop, then check/raises (probably a blank card) on the turn.

Plan accordingly.

Of course, you're not just playing against one guy. My advice is to try not to put all your chips in the pot during a marginal situation. TPTK has its fine lines, but this HH you posted gets scary past the flop betting. You could throw out a small bet on the turn, and if you get raised allin, don't say "well, I'm getting such and such odds and I've invested 'x' amount already, I have to call". That's def not the right attitude. Pot odds don't matter anything if you're not getting the correct winning odds to match them. If he has the set or two pair, there is no way your calling of his AI raise can be +EV. I actually prefer the check here on the turn, follewed by calling a reasonable bet when a non-scare card comes out. Yes you are letting him catch a free card to beat you, but what many people fail to realize is that in the instance you are behind in this hand, which is going to be more likely than not, you are getting a free card to beat him. Use that position to your advantage!

"Don't invest all your chips in a marginal situation." I try to repeat that to myself like clockwork, but sometimes I forget too.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Yeah, no, I know. I've just been losing with TPTK a lot lately. I know it's +EV in the long run.

I've had the same thoughts as you when my TPTK got cracked abnormally much, then started to keep an eye out for how top pairs normally fare and came to the conclusion they generally make a lot of money for you.

Btw, how do you have 1,100 posts since March, Jack? And I thought I spent too much time on this site...

I have an overactive mind . So this forum is my outlet or something, lol. I'm in a bit of a financial pinch, and I'm playing poker for little over two months now and made over $650. So the end is not yet in sight I'm afraid.

(plus I honestly feel I could have made 2x or 3x this much, if I wan't so emotionally weak; ie I'm way too prone to overconfidence, tilt and all that crap)

i've found that this actually doesn't bother me lol.

If anything, your semi-aware opponents will notice it when you only bet your monsters.