TPTK Live Hand

Probably not beginner stuff, but this game reminds me sooooo much of the moronic $25NL games I started in I figure I'll post in here and give my thoughts.

$5/$10 NLHE, $1000 max, most of the field buys in for $500 or so.

I have ~$1500

I probably have a somewhat TAggy table image. Very loose passive table with a lot of limping and I had been raising a run of good starting hands. I also showed down Q9o for a moderate pot ever iso-raising a limper after a straddle (GREAT spot to iso-raise in a live game as the absolute value of the raise will often get the isolatation that is otherwise difficult to get in a loose live game where everyone dreams of out-flopping Aces with some dogshit hand and stacking nits like me.) So anyway, there is some distrust that I'm just running people over and well, I sort of am....

There is a limper and I make it $50 with :Ac: :Kh: from LP. BN flats, everyone else folds.

Button bought in for $500 but doubled through when he completed the SB with pocket kings and got it all-in against middle pair with top set. Yes, they really are that retarded. He's loosish and very passive pre-flop, but he plays reasonably well post-flop. He also doesn't often tip his pre-flop folds ahead of time. I really am not happy with having him on my left. Let's say the hand is $1200 deep. I haven't seen him splash around for big money.

Flop is :As: with around $120 in the pot.

I bet $80 and he re-raises to $160 taking care to raise the minimum. No real information on his behavior, although I think this is a bluff a lot.

What's my play and why?

Looks like a raise to take control of the betting and probably take a free river card with a diamond draw.

After the 160s there's 440 in the pot and we have just under 1g behind. If he plays fairly well post flop then he probably knows min-raising is pretty terrible with any decent made hand. The move is to make it 350 on top with plans of putting the other 650 in on a non-diamond turn. If the diamond falls, I make a big deal out of it and check to re-evaluate.

If it's a set and he doesn't give me any physical read then he's got my money.

Originally Posted by dev

If he plays fairly well post flop then he probably knows min-raising is pretty terrible with any decent made hand.

He may not know this. Relative to the player pool, I think he plays reasonably well post-flop. He mixes value bets and bluffs well.

Then again, I try really hard not to write people off just because they do really stupid things in standard spots and instead figure what they do well that has kept them from going stupid-broke.

The ace hands may still come along given the drawy board. I still like setting up the push on the turn. I guess we lose value if he can fold AQ or AJ here, but flatting is so bad against a flush draw.

Originally Posted by Fnord

(GREAT spot to iso-raise in a live game as the absolute value of the raise will often get the isolatation that is otherwise difficult to get in a loose live game where everyone dreams of out-flopping Aces with some dogshit hand and stacking nits like me.)

Thank you, Fnord, for the single greatest and most accurate description of how live players react to a preflop raise from a tight player.

I think one of the first questions we should be asking ourselves after the flop min raise is whether or not we want to get it all in with TPTK? If the money does end up going in then I'm not sure we want to be the one making the raises.

If you think there is a good chance he is bluffing and also considering our our table image (he may think we're just trying to pick up another pot on an ace high board and thus decide to play back) I would lean towards calling the bet and letting him make a double barrel bluff on the turn. If he does this and makes another big bet on the river that would be a tough spot.

If we raise the flop then his range for continuing becomes narrower and stronger, we're stopping him from bluffing again most of the time, and we're getting called by better hands a lot more often than worse hands.

Not sure if any of this is correct but these were my first thoughts when I saw the hand.

Originally Posted by kfaess

If you think there is a good chance he is bluffing and also considering our our table image (he may think we're just trying to pick up another pot on an ace high board and thus decide to play back) I would lean towards calling the bet and letting him make a double barrel bluff on the turn. If he does this and makes another big bet on the river that would be a tough spot.

Consider how this would affect the play of future hands.

Consider how this would affect the play of future hands.

hmm. If we call one or two streets and showdown this hand then I think the table would probably give us a little more credit and we might lose the "running over the table" image a little bit because we were betting and calling with a pretty strong hand.

If we call two streets and fold the river then our current image might be enhanced in the eyes of our opponents, and they might be more inclined to play back at us since we couldn't call a river bet and they may think we didn't have a very strong hand.

A different line of reasoning and argument for raising the flop would be that we want to exploit our current image. If our image is one where we've been running over the table then when we actually have a fairly strong hand like TPTK we want to continue our aggression in the hope that our opponents will stack off lighter and play back at us with a wider range than they normally would. On this flop the only hands that are actually ahead of us are AA (I included this since he plays so passively pre) , 66, 33, and maybe A6 depending on how loose he is.

I also have no idea whether we want to get our stack in the middle or not.

If he can float me then min-raise knowing he'll get two cards when I have a hand, a fold when I don't and license to value bet my stack when he catches really good then he has established a wildly profitable dynamic which will encourge him to play pots against me with position and play them well.

As much as we may LOL at his SB complete with KK, if he can exploit weaker players like that he can make up a lot of ground from his poor and obvious pre-flop errors.

ok I see what you mean.

The real money in NLHE isn't about stacking people and getting stacked.

My thinking may be off here, but I don't see how to get away from tptk here. Given that, I also don't see giving draws bad odds and still preserving some of our stack. So, in order to get the most value out of the draws in our opponent's range, we play it really aggressive and get it in on the turn. The river is too late.

Well, lets say you call and he bets the turn, I think you are owned a lot and especially if he continues the river. His range here though can be anything from any ace (Seeing where he's at) to the nut flush draw, set, two pair. We really only crush his weaker aces and have poor equity against everything. I'm not willing to stack off in this spot so I would not 3bet his flop raise.

I think I call and maybe bet/fold 2/3 pot turn on any non-diamond (27 cards) and c/c the river if diamond bricks and c/f if it hits. I then bet/call 1/2 pot turn if we hit non-diamond two pair or trips (so A, K 6, 3 = 9 cards) then c/c river if diamond misses and c/f if it hits. If the diamond hits I'll check/call once on the turn (11 cards). I could be completely off though.

smooth call, no diamond on the turn... my money is going in!

Why are we putting him on a flush draw?

His raise size almost discounts one, because a flush draw often floats or makes a bigger flop raising hopping to end it there. Not to say he wouldn't play it like this, but it's somewhat discounted.

This looks like:
o A pair-like hand making a cheap bluff with outs
o Air making a cheap bluff
o Ax raising "to see where he's at" to avoid an even more expensive decision on the turn.
o A monster sucking me in

Originally Posted by Fnord

The real money in NLHE isn't about stacking people and getting stacked.

That's right. Indeed, that's why I don't spend a lot of time around NL tables in these parts. At too many of them, people are shoving their chips in all the live long day (and the low buy-ins encourage that).

A good NLHE player is pretty much defined by his post-flop play. His ability to see where he is in the hand (and to escape losing situations), to exploit fold equity, and to know when and how to extract value. The problem is, you have to get past the donks to play this sort of game.

dunno about anyone else but I'm pretty confused by this thread right now.

Originally Posted by LawDude

Originally Posted by Fnord

The real money in NLHE isn't about stacking people and getting stacked.

That's right. Indeed, that's why I don't spend a lot of time around NL tables in these parts. At too many of them, people are shoving their chips in all the live long day (and the low buy-ins encourage that).

A good NLHE player is pretty much defined by his post-flop play. His ability to see where he is in the hand (and to escape losing situations), to exploit fold equity, and to know when and how to extract value. The problem is, you have to get past the donks to play this sort of game.

So you're suggesting that you can't beat players that give waaaayyyy too much action in a big bet format???? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

There are plenty of rooms in LA where you can buy-in over 50bb deep.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why are we putting him on a flush draw?

His raise size almost discounts one, because a flush draw often floats or makes a bigger flop raising hopping to end it there. Not to say he wouldn't play it like this, but it's somewhat discounted.

This looks like:
o A pair-like hand making a cheap bluff with outs
o Air making a cheap bluff
o Ax raising "to see where he's at" to avoid an even more expensive decision on the turn.
o A monster sucking me in

This suggests calling to see the turn and letting him try to bluff, since this range is mostly stuff we beat. We can't assume we can get him off of a monster here even if a scare card falls, so are you advocating that we check/call this down and bet the river if he checks behind on the turn?

I don't really see any other option than calling on the flop and re-evaluating the turn. Leading the turn would be about as bad as raising the flop, so I think I c/f there a lot because any decent bet size makes a fold on the river really tough, and he'd need to have balls of steel to bluff there after you cold the flop oop.
I think you pretty much gave the analyses away. The minraise is usually either very strong, begging for a call or a bluff. I think we can discard worse Aces and draws, unless we've seen him minraising with them before.

Is there any info about what other sort of hands the villain likes to play?

From the villain's perspective, I think that he could be doing this with KK, QQ, or JJ believing that you haven't hit TPTK.

It seems weird that the villain would be min-raising a monster hand if he played KK so passively. How did the betting go in the previous hand?

I think I would probably just call the flop min-raise.

If the villain checks through on a non diamond turn, I am betting a non diamond river for value, b/f a diamond river.

If the villain bets a non diamond turn, depending on the bet size, I would probably call and see the river. If a diamond hits on the river, I am making a small post-oak bluff to see if he folds a set and to get to showdown cheaply if possible.

I think we can discard worse Aces and draws, unless we've seen him minraising with them before.

I wouldn't necessarily do this because our image might be getting him frustrated and temp him to play back with AQ, AJ, FD's.

...or he's playing back at me because he thinks I'm some online kid who raises pre-flop and auto-bets the flop but otherwise has no heart because *gasp* 1k is a lot of money.

How are we playing the rest of our range in this spot? I really think there is value in future hands if he thinks we're capible of re-raising light and playing for our stack with top pair as it will put him (the player to our left) in line.

Originally Posted by Fnord

...or he's playing back at me because he thinks I'm some online kid who raises pre-flop and auto-bets the flop but otherwise has no heart because *gasp* 1k is a lot of money.

How are we playing the rest of our range in this spot? I really think there is value in future hands if he thinks we're capible of re-raising light and playing for our stack with top pair as it will put him (the player to our left) in line.

we're in LP with 1 limper so I would assume we have a pretty wide range here PF. We probably have to fold most of our opening range to the flop min raise unless we're pretty certain he's bluffing/have other reads where it would make sense to continue. So b/f most of it except sets, maybe AQ, and stronger draws?? That would probably mean we would have to play the draws aggressively as well just for balance if he is that much of a thinking player.

If the player who has the best position on us stops playing back at us as much then it obviously makes our life a whole lot easier and we can continue playing aggressively, especially against the weaker opponents.

I've seen stupid shit like JJ here raising to "see where he's at"
so I tarp him by calling and c/c turn
I'll evaluate if a diamond comes

is this bad? If he has a good hand we don't want to be raising
if he has air we don't want to be raising either
if he has 5- outs we don't really need to raise to protect our hand, we'll make more money getting him to bluff at us than we'll lose when he improves

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by LawDude

Originally Posted by Fnord

The real money in NLHE isn't about stacking people and getting stacked.

That's right. Indeed, that's why I don't spend a lot of time around NL tables in these parts. At too many of them, people are shoving their chips in all the live long day (and the low buy-ins encourage that).

A good NLHE player is pretty much defined by his post-flop play. His ability to see where he is in the hand (and to escape losing situations), to exploit fold equity, and to know when and how to extract value. The problem is, you have to get past the donks to play this sort of game.

So you're suggesting that you can't beat players that give waaaayyyy too much action in a big bet format???? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

There are plenty of rooms in LA where you can buy-in over 50bb deep.

It isn't that I can't beat them. It's that I don't like lottery ticket poker, even if I give myself favorable odds to win the lottery. Players who shove with anything and everything are extremely exploitable, yes, but the variance is extreme and the game isn't really any fun.

If I were rolled for it, I would try unlimited buy-in games, because I am not that enamored with even 100 $1/$2 no limit (when I play NL online, I buy-in with at least 100BB), though it's better than $40 $1/$2 or $80 $2/$3 no-limit which is played at some local casinos. But with the formats the way they are, I prefer playing limit games.

Originally Posted by iopq

so I tarp him by calling and c/c turn

This only works when I have showdown value and leaves me to the mercy of his mix between multi-barrel bluffing and value betting.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by iopq

so I tarp him by calling and c/c turn

This only works when I have showdown value and leaves me to the mercy of his mix between multi-barrel bluffing and value betting.

I guarantee you he won't notice

Is it too transparent to call his raise here and lead a non-diamond turn? He probably won't raise his draw twice, right?

Guys,
IMO, everyone needs to RE_READ Fnords posts and think about this hand with more of a metagame thought process rather than just in the context of this hand. Keep in mind the following:

- This is a live game so people don't leave the table as frequently. IE we may be playing against this opponent for the next few hours.

- This opponent will have position on us in all but one hand.

- Others at the table are watching this hand so how we play it may help us gain equity against the others in future hands.

- Unless we are both regs (which I don't think opponent is) then we don't necessarily need to worry about long term strategy against this opponent

- You can then apply this type of thinking to people that you have history with on the interweb tables.

Think a tad less about what he may have on this particular hand and think a tad more about how he perceives us, how he thinks we perceive him and how we can exploit those perceptions to maximize our ev against this opponent for the remainder of this session.

PS - That kind of thinking is still new to me so I am going to have to ponder a few things before giving my thoughts

PSS - If I am totally wrong here the I hope Fnord corrects me so I don't end up derailing the thread.

Gator:

You are basically right. The only caveat to that is that a lot of live players don't process information about others at the table. So you also have to consider if playing a certain way will actually register with the other players at the table and alter their future play.

I'm pretty bad at levelling people
Like I assume they're going to take the same line with the same hand but then I'm unpleasantly surprised
but live donks are even worse because they don't even know what your call with AK means for your general game plan

so we can play an imbalanced range like flat with AK and 3b with air (some of the time) if he keeps doing it
and see if he adjusts
don't pre-adjust to his adjustment that he's not going to make

when we play this way we're exploiting weaker opponents and they probably don't have the tools in their game to combat it
I don't think he has a the balls to 4b shove with air even if you 3b only air in that spot

What was your line from flop-river with the Q9o hand?

Anyway, in this hand you said there was a limper - so if villain has been paying attention a bit he would have noticed you raising the Q9o hand into the straddle. (You said he doesn't fold his cards out of turn preflop, so I think we can assume that he is paying close enough attention to the game that he's aware of how we are playing).

He has reason to become suspicous that your hand isn't that strong and that an isolation raise with a marginal hand is a big part of your range in this spot, so he decides to call - possibly lighter than usual (perhaps with some type of suited connector) because he may be hoping to take the pot away from you on a later street. Again, he appears to be paying attention, so he may be on a high enough level to play his opponents a bit rather than just his cards.

Now you said this guy bought in for only half-max, AND he didn't even raise preflop out of position with pocket kings... IMO these are just big tip-offs that he's playing with scared money, but he may not be, just a thought. He appears to like to see a flop before he starts gambling given his loose/passive preflop style. From what I've seen almost anyone playing scared is limping>raising preflop.

If he is this risk averse, whenever he bluffs he will probably try to bet the lowest amount he can get away with - so I think you have a valid point about the min-raise being a bluff alot of the time. Would we expect his bluffing frequency to become greater as you are claiming the image of running over the table? I think he would probably start bluffing more if he thinks you're isolating with trashy hands if he's again capable of playing beyond what he holds.

I'd call the min-raise, let him bet the turn, and then throw a c/r back to him on any blank that he bets. If he shoves over you're likely toast. If he flat calls I think you might be looking at a weaker ace, I mean, if we assume he's playing with scared money would he not want to protect his set on the turn against the draw if he has it? (Now back to how he played the KK hand, what was his line on getting his stack in here?). I think how he played that hand may be a key hint at what he's got here. Like you said, you suspect he's on a bluff. I think your line will be based somewhat on how he got his money in with his set earlier. We might be able to rule out a set if things don't add up, and weigh either a bluff or a weaker ace (perhaps a chop), as a larger portion of his continuing range. I suppose a flush draw could be in there too.

If we check/raise the turn, and end up showing down our hand, would this have us getting called down lighter when we check/raise? Thus, if we did this again but with a set, we'd likely win a stack if someones holding top/top - but we'd have to tone the aggression down probably and camp a bit since if we're c/r'ing with just a pair, we're probably betting alot with garbage.

If we don't show the hand down, we can continue running the table over because no one will want to mess with us after we've demonstrated that we will c/r someone after they've raised into us on the flop. You may be able to instill the thought that you won't accept being played back at with a c/r on the turn, and this might cause your opponent to bluff you less, so you can continue running him over along with the rest.


Sorry if my respsonse is bad and full of lots of errors or misjudgements. It isn't intended to be instructional. I'm just trying to lay out my thoughts and have others show me where my thinking may be off. Please comment, thanks.

-Micro

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

If we don't show the hand down, we can continue running the table over because no one will want to mess with us after we've demonstrated that we will c/r someone after they've raised into us on the flop.

I disagree with this as I think the more aggressive we seem without showing down good hands increases the likelyhood that we will get called lighter in future hands.

Originally Posted by LawDude

a lot of live players don't process information about others at the table.

This is wrong.

However, they will often misapply or ignore the information they gather.

I think the guy to my left clearly understood the message I sent when I re-raised him to $400 flat and left him to wonder if I bluffed him or not.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

What was your line from flop-river with the Q9o hand?

(betting amounts may be off)

Straddle, limp, I make it $75 with Q9o from the CO, folds to limper who refuses to fold.

Flop is like Ten high or something. I bet $100, limper calls.
Turn is a Queen. I check behind after considering a value bet as I think there is a fair chance he's set mining or playing a medium pocket pair.
River is a blank. Limpers bets $140 and I snap off his 88.

Mixed feelings on my turn and river lines, I probably could have manned up and gone for more value once I hit the turn.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I think the guy to my left clearly understood the message I sent when I re-raised him to $400 flat and left him to wonder if I bluffed him or not.

While you were left wondering if you got the most value out of his range considering your own.

Originally Posted by iopq

but live donks are even worse because they don't even know what your call with AK means for your general game plan

At least a couple others in the player pool have run min-raise in position lines to take initiative in hands away from me, run a cheap bluff and set-up later value bets. I think the way to punish them is to make them regret re-opening the betting with a wide range I can come over the top of.

Originally Posted by iopq

so we can play an imbalanced range like flat with AK and 3b with air (some of the time) if he keeps doing it
and see if he adjusts
don't pre-adjust to his adjustment that he's not going to make

when we play this way we're exploiting weaker opponents and they probably don't have the tools in their game to combat it
I don't think he has a the balls to 4b shove with air even if you 3b only air in that spot

Good post.

Originally Posted by mieczkowusc

It seems weird that the villain would be min-raising a monster hand if he played KK so passively. How did the betting go in the previous hand?

He played it fast to get all the money in with 3 bets into a limped pot.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by LawDude

a lot of live players don't process information about others at the table.

This is wrong.

However, they will often misapply or ignore the information they gather.

I think the guy to my left clearly understood the message I sent when I re-raised him to $400 flat and left him to wonder if I bluffed him or not.

If he understood, he understood. But Fnord, you need to play at the tables I play at before you deny that players don't process information at the table. I have literally shown the same player down 5 times in a row and won. I have check-raised 4 times with strong hands and still haven't induced anyone to fold the 5th time. I have watched the same players call my pre-flop raises over and over after seeing me do it and turn over big cards.

Most importantly, I see these same players not process information from other players at the table. Some absolute nit will suddenly wake up and start raising with 3 cards to a flush on the table, and they'll get calls by players who have middle pair(!).

I wasn't speaking of your hand-- I totally believe you when you say your villain was processing information. But I constantly sit down at tables with players who have no idea what is going on in the hands other than whatever cards they had and whether they form a good hand. Knowing who is processing information at the table and who isn't is fundamental to low-stakes live poker.

Calling one more bet gets someone to think past level zero far less often than calling off your car payment.

I think His range would include AK, A6 & A3, 33, 66 and a few other trashier hands he may want to see a cheap turn and river.

A fold here is wrong imo. If you call the flop raise you give the least information and will be a good set up for the turn bet of about 2/3 the pot.. and he may fold a strong hand if the draw hits on the turn.

If you're in the mood for a minraise then be prepared to be outplayed. He'll probably get a read on the strength of your hand, probably call making the pot bigger. This is still not a bad play against inexperienced players. If he's on a draw or has a weak Ace your laughing at his bunk reraise and flat call. If he's a good player than he's sitting on a monster.

With the minraise... It's just a gamble at this point.

Generally for some reason online I find that players min raise with sets here. In the hand I think depending on how you think your opponent percievs you in metagame terms. I think we should be planning the hand out at this point.

If we are considering calling any bet in the future we might want to consider reraising this players raise. This allows you to fold to a shove or take the pot down. If we are so worried about a flush draw this charges him. But again this re opens the pot if he wants to flip for stack with a flush draw. Is he the kind of player that would do this? If you consider calling the flop raise at all you should be thinking about how much of a bet you are calling on the turn. And by calling I mean not really getting any concrete info other than he still thinks he is winning. And would this flop raise basically get more info than if we just flatted him on the flop and c/c on the turn. By doing this also we are Letting him know that we are not just C-betting with air and running the table over. And we actually do have somthing.

Is this the type of player that knows when to fold top top? Does he know when to fold?

I only think this is a good line if we percieve our player is thinking this. Which brings us to another point. What level thinker is this player? Other than this session have you played against this player before. Is he an ABC player a regular, someone with a lot of money sitting down Another good consideration would be what is this player. Loose passive, Tight passive or Deceptional.