TP+FD

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP1 ($5.23)
MP2 ($2.48)
CO ($5.75)
Hero (Button) ($5.65)
SB ($2.37)
BB ($5.72)
UTG ($5.07)
UTG+1 ($8.66)

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
UTG bets $0.20, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.20, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold, BB calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.82) , , (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets $0.78

villains is 39/14 AFq 41 over 91 hands. from what i have seen him play, he will psb here only overpairs and sets.
i didnt stove it at that moment but i figured that i have 45-50% equity. ( any h card, 8 and 9)

is here better calling and see the turn or shoving?

What's UTG like? I hope you had a reason for calling preflop.

But anyways, the guy you're playing is bad and as played I'd raise because he can call with a lot of worse stuff.

Against QQ-88,55,22 you have a little more than 43% equity (before rake). So to raise profitably here, you need a little bit of fold equity (I leave it to you to calculate how much fold equity you need).

If you have no fold equity at all, then you can't really call either due to lack of implied odds of most of your outs, and the high likelihood that he will fire a second barrel on a blank turn. Plus you have some reverse implied odds when you hit trips or two pairs if he has a set.

Originally Posted by kmind

What's UTG like? I hope you had a reason for calling preflop

Since when is calling a middle/good SC IP in a multiway pot bad?

@OP
The MP2s bet size is pretty indicative of a hand that does not want to see another heart peel off which makes your range for him relatively solid. Reads on UTG are pretty important here because if he is the type to c/r FDs then this is a terrible spot for you. If he is the type of player who fit or folds hands like AQo on these kinds of boards then it's a little easier to play. One thing to remember is that vs the sets your 8/9 outs are no good and he also has a decent redraw if you bink the flush. So in short, if he only has sets then it's a fold. If he has OP is he ever folding? If the answer is yes then I think raising is probably better but if he is never folding then I think you have to call based on what daviddem mentioned in his post.

Then again, you also need to think about whether he will pay you off if you hit a heart. Given that it's 5NL I think you'll probably get enough off of him to make calling alright.

Here's a sort of similar spot (at least before all the raising) that I encountered last month and had some interesting discussion to read.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...-r-184898.html

i jost woke up/// i dont rem the UTG stats corectly, but he is pretty straight forward, if he had here a set, and only 88 its in his range he would bet cause of the FD, if he had overpairs he would also bet. But UTG could have here AhKh, AhQh, if i call and BB calls he has odds to chase the FD,its how i thinked then. BB is unknow.

anyway, due to fact i dont have NFD and dont know if MP is overpair or set, i just called, BB folds and UTG folds.

turn is 2d. MP shoves, at this point all i could consider as outs is a 8 so i folded.

is the line ok?

I think you played it fine. If you decide to raise here knowing MP's range is overpairs and sets exclusively and BB (and maybe UTG) happens to wake up with a better flush draw you're essentially drawing to 5 bad outs (9,8). If this hand were HU it could go either way I guess. If you think he can find the fold button with 99-TT then raising can be a good play. If not, just flat and try to bink on the turn and hope he pays you off.

1) You are ahead of all flushes draws.

Use poker stove.

Board: 8s 5h 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.045% 47.01% 00.04% 15822 13.50 { 9h8h }
Hand 1: 52.955% 52.91% 00.04% 17811 13.50 { 88+ }


Getting it in here is rarely a huge mistake. But if he has any draws not getting it in here is bad.

Originally Posted by Donachello

Since when is calling a middle/good SC IP in a multiway pot bad?

Never said it was bad. I asked him a question. But, yeah there are def. spots where it's bad.

@Kmind

i called pre cause when i played with pokerstove i seen that 78s-9Ts against 2-3 opps with tight ranges like 88+, AQso+, has about 20-25% equity, if opps ranges are wider then my equity improves also. when was my turn to act i was getting 3:1 pot odds with 25% equity so i said its ok calling, when BB also called my odds were 4:1.

if its not ok my thinking pls tell me to make it right.

@luck

my mistake i didnt stove it during hand, but i put MP on 88+, 55,22 cause he would call any PP preflop in that position. UTG was not my worry that moment,i have his stats now ( looked in PT3 to be sure) ge is 12/9 AFq 28 176 hands, so he has air here and like i seen him play wont call AI on NFD.

@donachello

i think your hand is a little diff cause stakes, flop action, your hand ( you have 2NFD) and the fact you already are 50% of stack in the pot before BB goes AI. in that hand hand i would call anytime cause of the pot odds , equity and dead money in there.

raise and hope nobody has a set. I think villain is calling with any FD any set and any over pair and maybe even st8 draws. If you just call and hit your flush on the turn it may scare off hands like over pairs and str8 draws. On top of that it would suck if i were on a bigger FD And you raised the turn. You would have essentially kept the pot small when in front and bloated the pot when behind

Originally Posted by littleogre

raise and hope nobody has a set. I think villain is calling with any FD any set and any over pair and maybe even st8 draws. If you just call and hit your flush on the turn it may scare off hands like over pairs and str8 draws. On top of that it would suck if i were on a bigger FD And you raised the turn. You would have essentially kept the pot small when in front and bloated the pot when behind

if bolded is true, if i would think any of them has a FD and would call my reraise ,then its a fold for me on flop. in this case, my equity drops and i dont think there are any FD worst then my calling so no point in continuing with the hand.

edit: 6h7h is the only FD that would call/shove here in my opinion

Originally Posted by Razvan729

@Kmind

i called pre cause when i played with pokerstove i seen that 78s-9Ts against 2-3 opps with tight ranges like 88+, AQso+, has about 20-25% equity, if opps ranges are wider then my equity improves also. when was my turn to act i was getting 3:1 pot odds with 25% equity so i said its ok calling, when BB also called my odds were 4:1.

if its not ok my thinking pls tell me to make it right.

The thing is that PokerStove is for all-in equity so we have to assume we see all 5 community cards. This is almost never the case unless we flop twopair+/OESD/FD and even so we often only see just the turn when we flop one of those draws.

My point, besides what was mentioned above, is that we often don't have the implied odds that we think we do with SCs. They can also be great hands to semi-bluff with but vs. an UTG player plus "Reg" callers then we actually won't be able to use our FE. This makes calling pre suck. However, in THIS spot calling can be fine because we have a certain exception in that the cold caller is a fish. If, say stacks were bigger too, then yeah that's another exception. Or if the UTG player was pretty loose, etc. But then we have to figure out if we should be calling more with mid-SC rather than Axs. That's a whole other discussion.

Preflop seems ok against this given players stats - would you have called against a 12/10?
(I think some people in the thread are asking 'Do you know how tight UTG's range SHOULD be here hence do you know why you are calling and is it 'standard'...)

If you think you have even a little fold equity I raise the flop to shove turn or set up turn bet river shove as a little FE brings your equity up. Also it puts you opponent to difficult decisions - not you (although this makes little difference against stations) and can make them play their hand in a way different from what they would if they could see your cards

However, against your given opponent they'll either never fold a hand like AA here (zomg AA is teh nutz!) no matter if your raise screams set a lot of the time so it may just be worth calling - again id say you can call a close to PSB on the flop as your opp wont give up AA on a flushy turn much if we assume all of the above about their preflop play from HUD stats.

Raise here looks bad to me; a 40/14 just PSB into a multiway pot which i see as strong. At best he has overs + FD, at worst a set. I guess he might not fold the FD hand to a raise but nor is he always PSB'ing that. Smells like a set from a mile off..

(im a nit)

With no FE, just call.

Originally Posted by mbiz

Raise here looks bad to me; a 40/14 just PSB into a multiway pot which i see as strong. At best he has overs + FD, at worst a set. I guess he might not fold the FD hand to a raise but nor is he always PSB'ing that. Smells like a set from a mile off..

(im a nit)

Why is his range from UTG more likely to be sets and not AA-QQ potting the flop?
How would you react if the BTN mashed the raise button and you had AA UTG?

How can calling be OK here to see one card and with hardly any implied odds?

Again, if opp's range is only sets and overpairs AND we have 0 fold equity, then folding is not a bad option imo.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

if bolded is true, if i would think any of them has a FD and would call my reraise ,then its a fold for me on flop. in this case, my equity drops and i dont think there are any FD worst then my calling so no point in continuing with the hand.

edit: 6h7h is the only FD that would call/shove here in my opinion

Why should you fold if FD's like AhKh will call a shove? You are ahead of these, so they make his range weaker, so you should be more inclined to shove. Why do you think he only calls with 6h7h? I don't see why he would call your shove with 99-JJ and not AhKh?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Why is his range from UTG more likely to be sets and not AA-QQ potting the flop?
How would you react if the BTN mashed the raise button and you had AA UTG?

Im talking about MP1, he just called pre so AA-KK is much less likely i reckon.
React where, on flop? Depends on reads i guess, on a board that drawy i could probably often call one street if the raise size isnt huge and i think he will raise draws.

so, MP range is 22,55,88-QQ ( he'd 3bet KK+), he is not psb on FD.
BB is unknown and ck flop, i have no tange for him on flop.

so, MP range is 22,55,88-QQ ( he'd 3bet KK+), he does not psb on FD.
UTG has here AQso+ ,he would bet overpair or a set and the only set in his range is 88 ,the way i seen him play, wont call my shove with AKhh or AQhh, but he will call if i call and BB also calls , because he has great odds and the pot will be huge.
BB is unknown, with him ck flop i really dont know what range to assign.

these are my ranges for them.

having all this above in my head, dilema was calling or shoving?
MP will not fold any of his range assigned if i shove so i have no FE against him, but i if i shove i may be able be HU with MP with 43% equity vs his range

if i jus call i give BB/UTG 4:1 pot odds and if BB calls UTG gets 5:1 pot odds.

if i call, i am building pot and giving BB 4:1 odds and if he calls gives UTG