Time to Change?

Guys, some advice please.

I'm struggling to get out of the 10 buck limits. Two steps forward and three steps back has been the syndrome ever since I briefly dallied in the heady heights of $25 NL.

I've gone out and picked up a book, which I am not sure everyone will like, but it has some appeal to me. It's Phil Gordon's Green Book.

I think that it's mainly geared to tournies, but I just needed to read something to kickstart my game and get me to thinking of what could be wrong with me or what I can do to improve.

My conclusion, thus far, is that I need to be more aggressive. As Gordon says, "Betting has to ways of winning,..."

Questions: is it going to be foolhardy at these limits raising with 77, for example, in an unraised pot, from late position? Should over-betting the pot be something I use a lot more, for example with a strong draw, like an open-ended straight?

Those are just a couple of examples, but I hope you get my drift. I know I can't generalise so much, but I am starting to recognise more of the player's styles that I'm up against, and mostly, they are very loose and the ones who seem to win, are also very aggressive.

I've done OK using a very passive style, but I'm not sure I"m maximising my profits, and of late, I've been losing steadily. I just cannot win big pots. One 30 dollar pot in the last 10,000 hands.

I've experimented a bit --say 700 hands -- with raising more and betting much heavier, and I have been winning more hands than losing, however, the variance is greater and I have been de-stacked more than I've de-stacked others.

However, I think that it bears more experimentation. Good idea or silly?

Remember, I'm talking about $10 NL. Is a more aggressive style going to pay dividends or shall I go back to waiting for monsters and damn the deception?

Many thanks in advance.

Jigs

Put the AG in TAG but make sure you know who youre up against first. Theres no point at all trying to blind steal or buy buttons from a calling station.

Ill raise medium PPs from LP a fair amount if the guys after me are reasonably tight. The important thing to have when you are playing less than premium hands, is position.

Are you still playing counterplay?

If I were you id give 19 hand TAG a go and then throw in more hands as you become more comfortable with betting and raising less than the nuts.

Oh and one last thing. Just because you are going to be aggressive doesnt mean you are going to be a maniac. Learn when to put the breaks on when your top pair gets raised.

Just camp for sets or TPTK. Get the money in with them. You'll win.

If you are not beating 10NL, it's your postflop game that is the problem, not so much your preflop game.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Oh and one last thing. Just because you are going to be aggressive doesnt mean you are going to be a maniac. Learn when to put the breaks on when your top pair gets raised.

i agree with pelion
aggression is great, but you still have to observe your opponents and play solid poker

Slow and steady wins the race Jiggus. Don't be looking to move up so quick at these levels. I'm sure lots of us here have tales of killing 2NL then 5NL but at either 10Nl or 25NL it will get ya. Newbie circle of death. Take your time, build the roll, and learn the game. Read the book, get another book, but don't try all those fancy moves at once. They just don't fall for most. Trust guys when they say this. You can try C-bets and semi bluffs, playing from position, check raises...but against calling stations you need to get in there with best hands. Learn to read the board and know the nuts. Play micro with a very basic game plan. Large pots and lots of callers, have monsters, or isolate and beat them with TPTK for small pots. Get 5 or 10 thousand hands at each level. Oh and don't bluff, they'll call it, they have MPWK and are going to play the hand.

Originally Posted by midas06

Just camp for sets or TPTK. Get the money in with them. You'll win.

indeed

500 to 800 the back to 600 and now up to 1.1k

In 15 days.

I think I might be with JackVance on this one. I don't think $5/$10 NL are about exploiting small advantages, they are all about getting lots of money in post flop while you are way ahead.

I've gotten to a point I'm comfortable with my pre-flop game (raise b/w 5-6% of the time) and I too am really trying to focus on upping my post-flop aggression. I'm finding that aggression, in moderation can work extremely well. That and telling consistent post-flop stories can get people to fold the best hand. I try and incorporate Harrington's philosophy of value betting on the river with a hand that will likely lose if I check. (If the pot is $2.50 and I bet $.50 it's worth it if I think the villian will fold 20+% of the time.) I may do this one every hundered hands or so.

To answer your percise question, yes I would raise just about any PP in late position and follow up with a 1/3-1/2 pot bet depending on the flop. Raising lots of hands (again, maybe 5% of the time) isn't that expensive. Consistently c-betting can be. It also ensures that people have a very difficult time reading you when you raise. (Which is key, it helps get QQ+ paid off big time, because they'll think you have a low pp or AJ+).

As for overbetting the pot, I don't do it. I find myself able to get enough money in as is. If you have a great hand just bet a consistent, solid amount and if anyone has anything, they'll call. If they have the nuts they'll raise.

Good luck

Originally Posted by yorib

I think I might be with JackVance on this one. I don't think $5/$10 NL are about exploiting small advantages, they are all about getting lots of money in post flop while you are way ahead.

I've gotten to a point I'm comfortable with my pre-flop game (raise b/w 5-6% of the time) and I too am really trying to focus on upping my post-flop aggression. I'm finding that aggression, in moderation can work extremely well. That and telling consistent post-flop stories can get people to fold the best hand. I try and incorporate Harrington's philosophy of value betting on the river with a hand that will likely lose if I check. (If the pot is $2.50 and I bet $.50 it's worth it if I think the villian will fold 20+% of the time.) I may do this one every hundered hands or so.

To answer your percise question, yes I would raise just about any PP in late position and follow up with a 1/3-1/2 pot bet depending on the flop. Raising lots of hands (again, maybe 5% of the time) isn't that expensive. Consistently c-betting can be. It also ensures that people have a very difficult time reading you when you raise. (Which is key, it helps get QQ+ paid off big time, because they'll think you have a low pp or AJ+).

As for overbetting the pot, I don't do it. I find myself able to get enough money in as is. If you have a great hand just bet a consistent, solid amount and if anyone has anything, they'll call. If they have the nuts they'll raise.

Good luck

All excellent points. My favorites are "aggression in moderation" ... "getting your money in while ahead post flop" ... and "just bet consistent solid amount". These have worked well for me at 25NL.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Slow and steady wins the race Jiggus. Don't be looking to move up so quick at these levels. I'm sure lots of us here have tales of killing 2NL then 5NL but at either 10Nl or 25NL it will get ya. Newbie circle of death. Take your time, build the roll, and learn the game. Read the book, get another book, but don't try all those fancy moves at once. They just don't fall for most. Trust guys when they say this. You can try C-bets and semi bluffs, playing from position, check raises...but against calling stations you need to get in there with best hands. Learn to read the board and know the nuts. Play micro with a very basic game plan. Large pots and lots of callers, have monsters, or isolate and beat them with TPTK for small pots. Get 5 or 10 thousand hands at each level. Oh and don't bluff, they'll call it, they have MPWK and are going to play the hand.

Umm,... I've got 20,000 or more hands at each level. I'm stuck at $10 NL and this is frustrating me. I climbed very steadily from 150 to over 500 bucks, but then everything went to the Antarctic. I'm usually a very cautious player who folds a lot. Maybe too much, at times.

I haven't updated my signature, but I think I've now got around 26,000 hands at $10 NL. As I stated earlier, for the last 10 grand's worth of hands I cannot win big anymore.

This morning is the standard way it has been going. Grind, grind, grind, my stats show that I'm winning more hands than losing when I see the flop, but I only come away with a couple bucks profit. And this morning was a great day. The last 20 mornings I've been coming away with a loss.

In fact, today I went back to a counterplay style. That's been my favourite way to play. I wasn't aggressive at all, except when I thought I had the best hand.

What I really think is going on is that I've completely changed the times when I play. The tables I play at in the early mornings are full of idiots and calling stations with a couple of LAGG's. Before, I played evenings, and the style of play was completely different. I seem to be having a hard time dealing with the LAG's. I'm a slow learner, obviously, so it will probably just take me more time to develop the right strategy against these types. The calling stations are easy enough, just show them down good hands.

I will also add that I'm not worried about preflop. I'm very tight. Everything is based on position and cards. 19 hands plus a bit depending on circumstances.

I will see how passive the table is and call a lot more in position with suited connectors, for example, but still, I only see about 18% of the flops (+/- 3%).

I dunno, maybe it's just a really, really long run of no "luck".

The reason I picked up Gordon's book was because ToP and SSH do not have enough specific information on no limit and I really wanted to have some sort of reference for NL. I've read the latter two books more times than I can remember and both are excellent bathroom reading, I can say, and surely great for certain things, but leave me wanting in other areas.

But anyhow, guys, thanks for the feedback. As always, it's much appreciated.

Jigs

Originally Posted by Jiggus

I will also add that I'm not worried about preflop. I'm very tight. Everything is based on position and cards. 19 hands plus a bit depending on circumstances.

I will see how passive the table is and call a lot more in position with suited connectors, for example, but still, I only see about 18% of the flops (+/- 3%).

I dunno, maybe it's just a really, really long run of no "luck".

Eh, probably not.. you're referring to your preflop game again, not your postflop game. It's the latter that makes or breaks you. Read those things Yorib wrote, THAT is what matters the most, not that 2% extra PFR or 5% tighter VP$IP. Oh and read what kinglizard wrote especially. If you understand what he means then you're well on your way to beating 10NL.

I think with counterplay you lose out of winning with marginal hands. I think you should be betting hadns like TP with KJ until you get raised because there are people who will call with KT, K9 and draws. Most of the players at these stakes bet little and call too much so I think you need to be betting alot with good (but marginal) hands, and folding even pretty good hadns to a raise quite quickly to most players.

You should post some stats and hand histories though or everyone is just going to be guessing at your leaks without actually having any evidence.

OK, I'm taking this opportunity for playing poker, and instead using it to update PT and post some stats and some hands. Look for a couple of new posts anon.