tight is....wrong!?

hello everyone here at FTR.

I've been playing a LOT of poker over the last month, basically breaking even at 25NL.

When i started out, for mayb the first couple of weeks, i was seeing about 33% of flops, and i was turning a pretty tidy profit. Then i thought, time to get serious, and started not just reading, but studying FTR. My starting hand requirements and attention to position began to become a lot tighter, to the point where i was seeing about 23% of flops.

Then something horrible happened. I started losing money. lost the profit i had made and then stayed about break even for the next week.

So for the last couple of days, i've pushed my flops seen back up to around 33%, and all of a sudden i'm making money again.

I just got through reading phil gordons little green book, and when i got to the end he mentions the different playing styles of different pros. He talked about gus hansen with a slightly more aggressive, "see a lot of flops cheap get paid big" philosophy.

does anyone here play this style profitably, or think it's possible?

sorry for the long post, but i'm quite confused.

The results you're experiencing are most likely just variance. I don't think you realize how many hands you have to play to hit "the long run". Winrate doesn't converge to a reasonable value for well over 100,000 hands. I consider it very unlikely you played this many hands last month ^^;

Whether you are a winning player or a losing player doesn't depend on how many starting hands you play. It's your total strategy and style, combined with your hand reading skills. I.e. holdem has three streets after you decide to play your starting hands. It also depends on how you play those starting hands.

So when you started playing less hands did you change the amount of hands you raise and reraise accordingly. Also did you change your post flop aggression accordingly.

And as Nova said, it could just be variance.

You could certainly be profitable with a looser style but I feel at 25NL when you're just getting your feet wet a tighter style is much more effective. The main reason is when bluffing is not profitable because of a steady stream of stations you're relying on hand value a LOT. Playing tight means you'll be coming into pots with much stronger hands on average which is pure $$$ for you.

Flyingpenguin you play BW? I see someone with that ID on west realm quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Nova442

Flyingpenguin you play BW? I see someone with that ID on west realm quite a bit.

Since I don't know what BW or west realm is, I'd say probably not.

It's just that a lot of players that play Starcraft: Brood War are also big winners in poker too. For example on Stars Rekrul, Nazgul18, Elky (Bertrand Grospellier from Team Pokerstars). A lot of them post on Liquidpoker. I'm one of that community of people that plays both NL hold'em and BW.

EDIT: I'll add Daut44 aka Bigballs aka Ryan Daut who just won the WPT caribbean thing for 1.5 million and is Green Plastic's new protegé to the list.

Originally Posted by flyingPenguin

So when you started playing less hands did you change the amount of hands you raise and reraise accordingly. Also did you change your post flop aggression accordingly.

Well, i've always played an aggressive style of play, but i'm not sure if i changed the amount of hands i raised and reraised when i got tighter preflop. And i don't think i could get much more aggressive postflop.

I feel when i was playing tighter, the idea was to grind out the money, raising hard postflop, picking up small pot after small pot. Obviously trying to "make sets, get paid" but i found with a tight image i was making sets, but i was missing the get paid bit. I feel that the small amount of money i was making from playing tight didn't cover the money lost from inevitable bad beats and flush vs full houses, etc etc.

The looser play, letting a lot more connectors and one gappers into my game(suited or not), even calling raises with them when i have position seems to help me in two ways.
1. When i make a set, i bet it the same way i would as when i'm on one of my numerous draws, and TPTK, isn't scared, even reraising.
2. When i make a straight, i get paid, because they won't give me credit for connectors after they raised.

i don't know, when i compare what i'm doing to what i read here on FTR, I feel like the biggest donk in the world. But then i read supersystem, and it kind of makes me feel better about what i'm doing.

SuperSystem was written from experience at very high stakes game where Doyle could run over scared money by playing loose aggressive. Low stakes NL hold'em is a different game where people call all the time and don't care about losing their 25 bucks

You also may have a hard time moving up if you're leaking preflop by playing too loose when players at 50NL or something finally start making obvious folds postflop and cut your implied odds off.

Originally Posted by Nova442

It's just that a lot of players that play Starcraft: Brood War are also big winners in poker too. For example on Stars Rekrul, Nazgul18, Elky (Bertrand Grospellier from Team Pokerstars). A lot of them post on Liquidpoker. I'm one of that community of people that plays both NL hold'em and BW.

Whoa. Everything seems to make sense now. I used to be a kickass SC player. And I'm starting to be a kickass poker player now .

Seriously, I can see a correlation here. In starcraft you need to play tight according to good building strategy, think fast and most importantly counter your opponents strategies.

6max o FR?? To be honest I think the most important preflop stat is PFR not VPIP or flops seen%. If you can also determine a villains raise calling range, most of the tight players are all very similar, you will be able to narrow down your opponents holdings very quickly. By calling with the connector type hands you make it hard for your opponents to read you, and those str8s are set killers. This is why you are making money, however you probably still have a ton of leaks playing this loose. I think you are playing to many trap/weak type hands (KTo, J9o??). You need to find a medium where as you are tight but hard to read...

Originally Posted by Jager

6max o FR?? .......This is why you are making money, however you probably still have a ton of leaks playing this loose. I think you are playing to many trap/weak type hands (KTo, J9o??). You need to find a medium where as you are tight but hard to read...

I'm playing full ring.

As for trap hands, i stay well away from them. K9 and KT never see the light of day, nor do Kxsuited. If someone raises i'll probably fold likely dominated hands (KJ, QJ, AJ) but would be more likely to call with something like 78suited if the raise is not exorbitant and i have position on the raiser.

I don't think i play poker all that well to be honest, so i try to keep the decisions i have to make post flop to a minimum. My choices are simpler with connectors and pockets. I do agree that i have a lot of leaks however, and at the moment i'm playing at full tilt to get myself a free copy of poker tracker. Once i get that hopefully my leaks will be easier to spot.

It is not bad play to play loose, as you said, "see the flop cheap and get paid big". Suited connectors are one of my favorite hands and I am always satisfied when some nit gets stacked with AA cause I called his raise with 53s and flopped a straight and then he says I am a moron and goes on tilt. He doesn't know that if I flop just a pair of fives, I am gone.

Playing loose and bluffing a lot are two different things. You can play loose at small stakes cause you will get paid off when you hit. Just don't bluff so often. If they call a c bet, let it go.

some mental bluffs at liquidpoker.net - don't know if it's loose play or great play. if phil ivey makes those plays its incredible skill. if i make those plays it's definitely a fish play.

I see a lot of flops, and I'm a long term winning player. I make all my money on the late streets.

The term 'tight' is rather vague... Are we talking preflop or post flop...? there's a difference. Main reason reason to play tight: If you play QJ and run into QK KJ AJ AQ JJ QQ you are likely to lose the hand. or K8 v. KT etc. What's more, if one of your shared cards hits, you will be screwed.

QJ v. QK
flop: 258 you lucked out
flop: Q58 get ready to lose some money
flop QJK more
flop QQ3 more
QQJK3 get the idea?

Yeah it's fine to play 'book crap' like Axs and 22 and 56o if the idiots at your stakes give you enough implied odds post flop. (like they'll pay you off big when you get the nuts / near-nuts). In fact, if your table is playing no foldem holdem (4+ to flop every time) then you probably should be playing some *mediocre* drawing / garbage hands that have a chance to make the nuts. If you're only playing the big paint and the premiums, then raise like a man to thin the field else give the donk axis some monster reverse impied odds.

56o? All right, suted almost always, but offsuit against a raise? Do you play it?

Originally Posted by The Odds God

56o? All right, suted almost always, but offsuit against a raise? Do you play it?

first off, suited or not, it makes very little difference to me whether or not i'm going to call that raise with 56. 56o or 56s, they look pretty much identical to me.

I think there are two basic questions i'll ask before i call it.

Do i have position?
Will this guy underbet the flop and let me see a turn?

if the answers yes to both questions, i'm in.

Obviously i take into consideration my table image, as largely a lot of what i'm doing is playing at that pot regardless of what hits. Because people know i play a lot of draws, it's not so unbelievable that 3 flush that just came hit me square on the head.

Originally Posted by djbruxism

Obviously trying to "make sets, get paid" but i found with a tight image i was making sets, but i was missing the get paid bit.

Originally Posted by djbruxism

Because people know i play a lot of draws, it's not so unbelievable that 3 flush that just came hit me square on the head.

Don't overestimate them. Maybe one player tops knows how you personally play, and I'm probably making a wild overexaggeration.

If you really think you have an image at 25NL, you couldn't be much more wrong.

Originally Posted by bigslikk

QJ v. QK
flop: 258 you lucked out
flop: Q58 get ready to lose some money
flop QJK more
flop QQ3 more
QQJK3 get the idea?

Hahaha. Jesus man, it's like fear factor. I see you put the first flop of 258 out there. It's unique compared to the rest of the flops. It's a generic blank flop for both opponents. Can you also list the other 58,384 generic blank flops that allow you to outplay villain for a modest pot?

I mean I see what you're trying to say, don't get me wrong. However, this kind of advice is great for people who have next to no postflop skill. The fact is, if you have a certain read on a villain, you can play any two cards in position against them, because they play so badly after the flop. An example would be a nit with predictable betting patterns.

Originally Posted by djbruxism

Originally Posted by Jager

6max o FR?? .......This is why you are making money, however you probably still have a ton of leaks playing this loose. I think you are playing to many trap/weak type hands (KTo, J9o??). You need to find a medium where as you are tight but hard to read...

I'm playing full ring.

As for trap hands, i stay well away from them. K9 and KT never see the light of day, nor do Kxsuited. If someone raises i'll probably fold likely dominated hands (KJ, QJ, AJ) but would be more likely to call with something like 78suited if the raise is not exorbitant and i have position on the raiser.

I don't think i play poker all that well to be honest, so i try to keep the decisions i have to make post flop to a minimum. My choices are simpler with connectors and pockets. I do agree that i have a lot of leaks however, and at the moment i'm playing at full tilt to get myself a free copy of poker tracker. Once i get that hopefully my leaks will be easier to spot.

from the outside looking in...

seems hard to avoid KT, KXs and still be 33% vpip ( i play these hands quite a bit and am right at 20%). if so, sounds like you are taking the hands you do play a little too far. therefore, it sounds like your "bad run of tight poker" was variance. and your "rush" soon after "lossening up" was more do to confidence that you are winning again.

my .02