thoughts/advice on my home game

Hey yall,
I have a few thoughts about my home game and would like to hear your opinions and advice...and maybe it can help you guys out too......

A)We(group of 7-8 guys) play tournaments that begin with each player having 15 dollars worth of chips. (Blinds start at .25-.50) Being a tight/aggressive player, I find that after a few rotations of the button and a few raises pre-flop, half of my stack is gone. Is this not enough money to start the tournament with??(I think so) If so, how much should we start with?? I find myself short stack because of my tight play only about a half-hour into the tournament; I am then forced to go all in on a sub par hand, which brings me to my next point/question.

B)I have read somewhere that better players tend to get drawn out more often than average players. Many times before the flop I know that I have my opponent beat. Because of this, I tend to bet big to show no signs of weakness and avoid being beat by a crappy hand. My opponents, however, come over the top with that sexy(or they think so) KJ suited. However I know my Q's are a heavy favorite to win the pot, so I call the huge raise..... I'm not exaggerating when I say that 8 out of 10 times I get drawn out on hands such as these....Phil Hellmuth says in order to win a tournament, you must be able to lay down the best hand...however when I am a heavy favorite to win, I find it hard to throw my hand away. How do you all deal with these types of situations/decisions.....Keep in mind the structure of my home game mentioned in the first paragraph...

Any help would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for listening to my rambling!!

30 big blinds to start? I'd want more. Start with .10/.25 or .15/.25 or .10/.20.

B. 8 out of 10? Unlikely. Come back over the top though. Put the fuckers tourney on the line.

A. what i do in my home tourneys regardless of buy-ins is to have a fixed amount, say $150, and make blinds start as $1/2. Makes the game less of a crapshoot so soon. Plus I think this is 1/10 Stars' tourney setting

B. Put the heat on your opponents. If you like your QQ pf, put the pressure on them, if you put them on a missed flop, drop the hammer.

Nobody goes in as a favorite and gets drawn out on 8 times out of 10. It's possible if it's only happened 10 times, I guess, but over the long run it's not going to happen. Just keep getting your money in as the favorite - it's all you can do.

Originally Posted by pokerja3

Phil Hellmuth says in order to win a tournament, you must be able to lay down the best hand

I dont know that Phil ever said that. You dont go around winning too many tournaments if you fold the best hand, when you know its the best hand. I think phil is a little too successful to believe or preach something absurd like that

Originally Posted by The_Cheat

Originally Posted by pokerja3

Phil Hellmuth says in order to win a tournament, you must be able to lay down the best hand

I dont know that Phil ever said that. You dont go around winning too many tournaments if you fold the best hand, when you know its the best hand. I think phil is a little too successful to believe or preach something absurd like that

no he said that.. he was referring to situations where you know your marginal hand is best but the pot and situations just isnt worth the gamble. I doubt he would ever say that about a premier hand like QQ

i don't know if he said it, but i can definitely see him saying that about marginal situation. He's right if he meant you don't win a lot of tourney's by risking it all on a flip over and over. Even risking it all on a 60/40 more than once or twice is probably a bad idea unless you're desperate.

Originally Posted by The_Cheat

Originally Posted by pokerja3

Phil Hellmuth says in order to win a tournament, you must be able to lay down the best hand

I dont know that Phil ever said that. You dont go around winning too many tournaments if you fold the best hand, when you know its the best hand. I think phil is a little too successful to believe or preach something absurd like that

That was The Real Picard

not exaggerating when I say that 8 out of 10 times I get drawn out on hands such as these


POTD

LOL

Maybe your friends are bottom dealing!

sometimes I wonder if they are dealing off the bottom of the deck...lol...and yes, maybe 8/10 is a little exaggerated, BUT I have the records of my coin flips over the past few months and I am losing about 65% of the time...hopefully that will change....

And yes hullmuth said that quote (mentioned above in my first post) in his new book "Phil Hellmuths Texas Hold Em"
What he means is that although he has someone slightly beat before the flop, he doesn't want to risk his tournament life over it......So I am having a hard time deciding what to do in these types of situations.....especially when fish come over the top of me preflop...

Keep the advice coming!!!!THanks guys

those situations aren't borderline.
As a side Game give him KJ and you QQ. Say I'll give you $7 if you win $5 if I win. But we're gonna do this 5 times. Shuffle the deck and deal 'em. He'll learn about KJ.

$30 of chips can be $1000 of chips, if you wish, because it is a tourny.

That being said, many tournaments start with 50, 75, or 100 Big Blinds as a starting stack. I hear folks complain about 50BB stacks. Thirty BB stacks is a tough setup, and adds more luck to the equation.

Posted: Fri, 06 May 2005, 4:48pm Post subject:

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30 of chips can be $1000 of chips, if you wish, because it is a tourny.

That being said, many tournaments start with 50, 75, or 100 Big Blinds as a starting stack. I hear folks complain about 50BB stacks. Thirty BB stacks is a tough setup, and adds more luck to the equation.

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Wouldn't stack size also depend upon how quick you raised the blinds?

30xBB would be a fine stack if blinds never increased.

How quick do you guys raise your blinds usually? Once a rotation? Timer?

We do once a rotation untill about 4 handed then every two.

Don't know if that's normal or not..

Originally Posted by pokerja3

And yes hullmuth said that quote (mentioned above in my first post) in his new book "Phil Hellmuths Texas Hold Em"

Seriously. Burn that fucking book.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by Surf_Thug

Posted: Fri, 06 May 2005, 4:48pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

$

30 of chips can be $1000 of chips, if you wish, because it is a tourny.

That being said, many tournaments start with 50, 75, or 100 Big Blinds as a starting stack. I hear folks complain about 50BB stacks. Thirty BB stacks is a tough setup, and adds more luck to the equation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wouldn't stack size also depend upon how quick you raised the blinds?

30xBB would be a fine stack if blinds never increased.

How quick do you guys raise your blinds usually? Once a rotation? Timer?

We do once a rotation untill about 4 handed then every two.

Don't know if that's normal or not..

I think that is on the fast side of blind raising. But I don't know everything. IMHO, if you are a tight player and complaining about your situation, give yourself 75+ Bets to start a tournament. Tryyyy iiiiit.

if you're playing tournament style, there is no reason to start with "$15" in chips. you can each start out with 200 chips or 2,000 chips or whatever. the payout structure will be the same at the end.

check out www.homepokertourney.com for some good advice, and tools, for structuring a proper tourney.

ChezJ

p.s. this thread belongs in "home games"

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Seriously. Burn that fucking book.

-'rilla

That bad, 'rilla? I read his first one and it was tripe, but I haven't heard anything about this'un. What's the deal? I know he's all about some kind of "supertight" play now where he won't get into any situation unless he's a huge favorite. Sounds to me like a recipe for losing every game ever, except long tournaments where you start with 500 big blinds in chips or something.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by pokerja3

And yes hullmuth said that quote (mentioned above in my first post) in his new book "Phil Hellmuths Texas Hold Em"

Seriously. Burn that fucking book.

-'rilla

why does everyone think he is a good player ?? antonio completely raped him when he had position on him... same with annie duke ... phil doesnt understand as much as he thinks he does about position.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Seriously. Burn that fucking book.

-'rilla

That bad, 'rilla? I read his first one and it was tripe, but I haven't heard anything about this'un. What's the deal? I know he's all about some kind of "supertight" play now where he won't get into any situation unless he's a huge favorite. Sounds to me like a recipe for losing every game ever, except long tournaments where you start with 500 big blinds in chips or something.

It's a new one? He has a new one?!

What is the world coming to?

-'rilla

Originally Posted by Element187

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by pokerja3

And yes hullmuth said that quote (mentioned above in my first post) in his new book "Phil Hellmuths Texas Hold Em"

Seriously. Burn that fucking book.

-'rilla

why does everyone think he is a good player ?? antonio completely raped him when he had position on him... same with annie duke ... phil doesnt understand as much as he thinks he does about position.

I used to hate him too. Now I just hate his personality, not his play. Professionals say he controls a table better than anyone else and he is a lot richer than I am. Add in his HU victory in that big tourny, and it's reason enough for me to believe he's good.

And Duke had super hot cards.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It's a new one? He has a new one?!

Yeah, his first was "Play Poker Like the Pros"... being the self-aggrandizing little shit he is, this newer one puts his name front and center.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And Duke had super hot cards.

Fo sho. Phil was lucky to last as long as he did... his top pair laydown against her 2 pair was very good self-restraint.

i get the same problem with my home game. tourney starts with 6,000 chips, blinds at 100/200 and go up every 20 minutes with 6-8 players. by the time we are at 400/800 if u havent picked up anything to play or hit a monster in the blinds in an unraised pot you're down to around 4000. not total desparation, but by then 2 or 3 guys are out and the blinds come that much faster, with another 20 minutes until 500/1000. ive tried to get the starting stack to 10000 or even 8000, but they all complain about the game taking too long. isnt a good game supposed to take a long time? i could play one tourney for 5 hours and be happy. the guys who play and dont care about the $10 or $20 buy-in and just push and push in the beginning, drawing out on their flushes with terrible odds or hitting two pair with hands like 10 8 and K5. losing the 20 bucks doesnt break my bank either, but i like to try to play well no matter what the stakes. its not the 160 dollars, its the pride in winning the 160 bucks.

as far as Hellmuth goes, you have to respect the guy. no matter how much you hate his ego and his lack of respect for other players he is one of the 10 or 20 holdem players in the world that nobody wants at their table. 9 bracelets, something like 35 final tables at the world series, all time world series money leader (i think, either him or TJ) i dont count raymer or williams, maybe if they do something this year. he plays supertight and always seems to know when he's beat or when someone is about to play for all their chips. in the tourney of champions when he folded to chan's 66 with his AQ and howard called with AJ flop brings a Q. the table gets on phil about laying down AQ and he just says "What do you want me to do? If i call i know im playing a crap shoot for 600000 in chips, right?" he was getting the odds to call, pot offering more than 2-1 odds with chans raise, phils call and howards reraise. he knew only AA, KK, QQ, or AK would put him worse than 2-1 and with chan saying, "God, im sick and tired of laying these hands down" he figured him for a small pair. wish i could lay down those coin flips.

I hate Phil as a person, but let's not mistake him for a poor player. He's easily in the top 5% of professional players.

Yes, his book sucked, but the concept of needing to lay down what you are fairly sure is the best hand on occasion does ring true, especially in tournament play.

I'm sure all of us here can agree that you want to get your money in in the best spots possible. Sure, your hand may be a 55/45 favorite, but why play it for all your chips when you know you can risk them in better spots?

Pretend you walk into the casino and for argument's sake you are the BEST player in the entire poker room. You have $1,000.00 cash in your wallet, which represents your entire bankroll. Do you stroll up to the 5/10NL table and grab a seat, knowing you're a better player than anyone else there? No, because even though you may outplay everyone at the table, one stroke of bad luck can ruin you.

The same theory applies in tournaments. Why risk your entire stack on plays that are marginally +EV when the number one goal is survival?

Doesn't that problem create a paradox? You're the best player but you have no money.

Maybe that's just the funny nature of poker.

-'rilla

Contrived example, I know.

But that's essentially what happens in an MTT. You may be the best player, but you have the same "bankroll" as everyone else.

phil's play poker like the pros dvd was woeful.. at least the bits i saw.. he seemed incapable of talking to the camera without moving his hands up and down..

we always start with a $25 buyin then 1500 chips playing 25 50 then moving up every 15 min, it makes for a nice 3 or 4 hour trny, but we play mostly to have fun with friends, hope this helps ya