Thanks for helping a beginner out

I’m new to poker, and only been playing for around 4 months, 3 weeks of real money. I like to play limit Hold em at .10/.20 and SNGs at $5 on PokerStars. I starting play @ .25/.50 and got taken to the cleaners and was down to $5, so that’s when I started playing .10/.20 limit and I did okay. I have also played around 10 SNGs @ $5, 1 win, 1 second, 2 thirds, however I sucked bad in the last 5 SNGs played in.

I became frustrated with the last 5 SNG results and was not making was not winning enough @ .10/.20 limit for my liking. And then I made a massive mistake, I change my game to Pot Limit Holdem. After watching one table for 4 hours I decided to join and I knew if I played tight I could turn a huge profit. One bad beat and 3 poor plays, in 30 minutes and my bank role was gone.

I had found this site a few weeks ago and for the past 2 days I have been studying it constantly. Now I know I had been playing some real stupid poker. I had no idea of bankroll management, played Ace with a weak card from any position, and many more mistakes I just can’t go on about.

After reading this site I have pulled out ideas that have helped me to start over. These are not my ideas they have all come from this site, I just believe they will improve my game.

Bankroll Management, enough said.
Only play for an hour at a time, if hot or not, take a break and come back to the table.
Bad Beats will happen.
Thinking I know what tight is, and what tight is not the same.
Do not get frustrated with not winning all the time, I can’t always win.
Not playing so many hands out of the SB and BB just because I’ve already paid half in.
Not falling in love with the cards I have, being able to lay them down (work in progress).
Not being click happy, look at cards on the board and discuss my next move with myself (work in progress too).

So I invested back into PokerStar and play 3 hours last night trying to apply the above tactics. Played @ .10/.20 limit hold em, which I like and feel comfortable playing. I had my pocket Aces cracked twice, once with a flush draw on the board after the turn, I laid the rockets down. Second time a straight draw on the board after the river, I knew I was beaten but called so I could see the card they were playing, 9, 5 suited in early position, I had already noticed the same guy played K, 6 unsuited earlier too, so made an additional note about the cards this guys plays and hope I get to play him again soon. I also had a pair of kings cracked too, again to a 9, 5, I raised with these pairs every time, played them right (in my opinion) and still lost, however this time in I did not become frustrated, I just laughed at the cards I went up against, and made notes that these players play weak cards.

After the 3 hours including breaks I was up over $3, I played around 20% of hands, I laid down cards I used to play in weak position, and was happy with my game.

I plan on sticking with .10/.20 limit hold em, and leave the SNG alone until I have the Bankroll. I welcome any comments or ideas that you feel could further improve my game.

Well done. It sounds like you are well and truly on the right track. Finishing a session up after having AA and KK cracked means you are probably playing fairly well, and it certainly sounds like you are starting to know what you are doing. My advice is to keep reading the HH that are posted here (and post your own). Take some playing time out each week to go over the hands you have played and find out what you did right/ wrong so you know what to do next time the same situation comes up. Read all of the stickies in every Holdem forum would be a good idea too but bear in mind that the NL forums will not apply much to your game. Dont judge your play by your results. You seem to be getting the idea of not necessarily being dissapointed when you finish a session down, but that works both ways. Just because you have a winning session does not mean you should be satisfied. You should still go over hands even if you won them, if you think you could have played them better.

Most importantly of all, you should play and think about your game when you are playing and after you have finished. If you are now playing a profitable game then your lessions just became free. The more you play and think about poker the better at it you will get (up to a point).

I don't wanna sound like a queer or nothin', but nice name

Very good idea to stop playing the SNGs. A lot of players, especially relatively new ones, have trouble switching between ring games and SNGs -- and often end up losing at both.

concentrate on limit. From personal experience, once you can destroy decent stakes limit games, NL games become quite a bit easier, and so do SNGs. Until then, concentrate on limit.

Good job man, you look like you've got your head on straight. You'll be killin the games in no time. Promise. The mind game is the hardest part of poker, and you've got a leg up over a lot of people.

Welcome to FTR, dvda. You sound like you've got the makings. Don't play over your head too fast and you'll do just fine.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Very good idea to stop playing the SNGs. A lot of players, especially relatively new ones, have trouble switching between ring games and SNGs -- and often end up losing at both.

I'm curious as to this statement ... could you explain further? My usual regimen (lol 3 sessions so far!) is to play a $1 $45 SnG on Stars and then when thats done an hour or so of 0.01/0.02 with $5 buyin. With $100 bankroll that's 6% a day at risk.

Certainly they are different beasts, but I enjoy the different aspects. What do you see as the common pitfalls/mistakes?

To start winning the game you need to learn how to play it. That means you have to get good at recognising patterns in both the way you need to play situations, and the way opponents tend to bet in certain situations. Since SnGs and Ring are so different, and Limit and No Limit are so different the patterns you need to try and recognise are totally different in each. If you play a combination you are getting a whole load of contradictory information about how you should be playing in certain situations and that is not going to help you learn the game. It is better to focus on one type until you are at least half decent and then you can start spreading out a little.

In a ring game (certainly at low stakes) you win by literally waiting for premium hands. In a SnG when the blinds are high and when there are fewer players your definition of a good hand changes radically with people losing entire (short) stacks with middle pair. The end of a SnG is often about the big stacks bullying the small stacks with any 2 cards, and the small stacks waiting for any 2 high cards or any PP to go allin. Ring is never like this. I think it is better to focus on 1 game type or the other in the beggining. That doesnt mean you cant play any SnGs but it does mean that most of your poker time should be spent playing (and studying) your chosen game.

I appreciate that view ... and it makes sense. Wouldn't it be fair to say though that exposure to both forms of the game encourages deeper thought about how the game is played, as you need to recognise the different patterns and more be more consiously aware of what is happening as a result?

I pretty much try to play ring vs SnG exactly as you describe it. I acknowledge myself as a beginner but I feel the challenge of adapting play styles is proving a useful learning tool.

Certainly food for thought though

Originally Posted by Buzz

I appreciate that view ... and it makes sense. Wouldn't it be fair to say though that exposure to both forms of the game encourages deeper thought about how the game is played, as you need to recognise the different patterns and more be more consiously aware of what is happening as a result

If you can switch back and forth between the 2 then go ahead. Yes, you get a wider perspective and in time a deeper understanding of the game, but it will take you longer to get there! Your choice.

I need help!!!

I’m sticking with my game plan, but all around junk is being played and I’m down into my starting bankroll that I put in after being up 40% of my original buy in. Some fool just played 9,3 suited in a middle position and won a good size pot, lucky in was not in the pot. It is becoming so frustrating to watch this junk keep winning, and I’m holding back all the time not to play my junk hands. I’m hoping I’m just having a bad weekend.

I may have a leak!

My luck has been to get good starting hands in an early position. I raise pre flop, and after the flop I bet when I have not even hit anything and nothing to dangerous has come on the flop. I bet to show that I have a strong hand and to try and push the junk out, but the junk hangs around all the way to the river, even when I keep betting. After the river I get check raised and I know I’m beaten. They normally hit two pair or a set.
Should I be betting after the flop, or just checking until I hit my cards?
I would really like some opinions on how to play good cards out of a early starting position.

Thank you, all

.10/.20 is a great place to start with a limited bankroll. It's not so low of a stake that people are playing completely full of it, butis also full of fish. I could spend the next couple hours typing out advice, but instead, I'll tell you to go buy Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et. al.

Really, do it!! This book will tell you everything you need to know about playing correctly at those stakes. It will give you an excellent foundation for higher stakes. This book is the bible for low stakes limit players. Buying it and reading it over and over and applying it to your game is worth 10x anything else you can do to improve your game. If you don't believe me, do a forum search for 'SSH' on the limit forum.

I agree with Xanadu about SSH. I gather that you're a limit player DVDA? Still, I mean.

If you're dabbling in NL, then that book will not help you, but if you're losing big-time to suck-outs at micro NL, then the only way to beat 'em is using Aokrongly's "counterplay" strategy.

My experience with .10/.20 limit (at Paradise) was that the suckout schmoes were everywhere. And with limit, you can't price the buggers out of a hand. At .50/$1.00 is where the play starts reflecting reality a bit more as it is laid out in books like SSH.

Jigs

I agree with Xanadu about SSH. I gather that you're a limit player DVDA? Still, I mean.

If you're dabbling in NL, then that book will not help you, but if you're losing big-time to suck-outs at micro NL, then the only way to beat 'em is using Aokrongly's "counterplay" strategy.

My experience with .10/.20 limit (at Paradise) was that the suckout schmoes were everywhere. And with limit, you can't price the buggers out of a hand. At .50/$1.00 is where the play starts reflecting reality a bit more as it is laid out in books like SSH.

Jigs

If you regularly play junk in small stakes limit you WILL lose all your money.

Let's say you have AK and he has 93. Say neither of you hit on the flop, as is your example. Assuming he doesn't have a straight or flush draw, he has only 12 outs to beat you, and if you hit either of your cards he'd need runner runner.

pokenum -h as kc - 9d 3h -- 4c 8d qh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4c 8d Qh
cards %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Kc 78.48 213 21.52 0 0.00 0.785
9d 3h 21.52 777 78.48 0 0.00 0.215

i.e. you are 78% favourite to win. This is not a small edge. You are going to be beating these fish, these players who call every street with junk, more then 3/4 of the time. Stop moaning - this is what you want!!

Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.

Yes, I’m still playing limit @ .10/.20 and I will still be playing until I have the correct bankroll to go up to the next level. I’m still sticking to my game plan but occasionally I’ll limp in with connectors on the button if the action is light before me.

I’m hoping that occasionally these junk players will get the better of me, but over the long run their money will become mine. It’s just hard to see that when they get the better of me and others.

Yesterday I had a good session and ended up being $7-$8 up after a couple of hours, which I feel is really good for .10/.20 limit. There was also a junk player who was also up the same amount as me. The only difference was his money was up, down, up, down…… and he must have been looking at the flop 75% of the time. It did go up against him once that I remember of, I had a full house 10’s full of aces (I was dealt the Aces, and the 3 tens came after the turn) and pot was a good size. After the turn I get check raised and alarm bells start ringing, and remember two recent full houses that let me down big time. I figure that quad 10’s is the only hand that can beat me, and I’ve already noted this guy is playing anything. I’m not going to lay this hand down, so I only call. The river is a nothing card and he bets, this guy has got me thinking now, but I’m not laying it down so I call. I win the pot a little less than $4 if I remember correct. He played a J,4 suited or something stupid like that, and I don’t remember a flush dray being up on the board. I’m disappointed I did not take this fool to the cleaners, but glad I did not lose to another junk hand.

So, how well did I play is hand? Should I have raised his raises? This guy is playing anything, was I right to be cautious of his raises? I should have this hand on poker tracker, if we need a closer look! I really value everyone’s opinion.

If quads is the only had that has you beat, 3 bet him.

Are you using real-time software for PT stats as you play?