Starting hands

I'd like some advice on starting hands. I'm doing well enough playing as I am at the stakes I am with the minbuyin. But I'm realizing this isn't how to maximize my income. I'm wanting to try an experiment this weekend playing with max buyin, upping the aggression when I have hands and limping in less. Since a lot of the better players here play exactly that way, I thought the question bared asking.

My current play follows (mostly) a chart I put together in Nov. from FTR's main page (note: scroll down to the NL section). I deviate as I feel the game dictates, but it mostly follows what's seen there. Could I get input on what I should change?

Oh, and suggested changes to the limit table from limit players is also welcome.

- Jeffrey

P.S. If anyone would like, I'd be happy to modify this according to the input I receive and then offer it/them up as general guides for FTR (oh how I'd rejoice if I got my own sticky!).

- Jeffrey

Basically since any two cards can win, you want to build the pot by re-raising preflop as long as you have 2(two) cards. This is a +EV situation because of the implied odds. If dealt anything but 2 cards call the floorman immediately.

Honestly though, I raise with AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJs - and then bet at least half the pot almost always especially with position after checkers. Make the bet the same each time whether you hit the flop or not. Im not sure if this is the most efficient play but it keeps me with a steady money flow at the $25 buyins.

Limp with any PP, suited aces and if there is a raise and it looks like many callers, then great! call it too and your set has earned even more. Try not to run into a flush or straight though, ok? Hit a set or a flush and peole will purposefully place their entire buyin in your bank account.

The rest of em i just look off of a chart pretty close to yours

Looks very nice, to be honest I didnt read through the whole thing, but yeah if you can find a way to post that in a readable fashion I think it definitely deserves a stickey.

Ill take a look at the chart in more detail a bit later, but from what I can see I agree with most.

Nice chart. But why do you fold 99/88/77 where you would call
with 66-22 ?

Originally Posted by Borax

Nice chart. But why do you fold 99/88/77 where you would call
with 66-22 ?

Umm...you're misreading something. I'm not doing that in any circumstances. I'm folding 66-22 at times when I'd also fold every other hand on par with 99/88/77, but I'm even then calling with 99-77 (actually in my real play this is one place I've varied from the chart...I've played 99 almost the same as 66, which is probably not good).

Maybe I should explain that chart a bit: what the hands are (listed along the right side) is clear enough. For space reasons I assume that you can tell if something doesn't have XXs then it's an offsuit hand. The way the top breaks things down is to read like this: Early position with 0 raises, Early position with 1 raise, Middle position with 0 raises, Middle position with 1 raise, Middle position with many raises, Late position with 0 raises, Late position with 1 raise, Late position with many raises.

Does that make reading it any clearer for people?

- Jeffrey

Ummm...Ok there are a lot of mistakes in that chart. First of all never fold a pocket pair unless someone raises too much for you to have imlied odds on them. Second of all dont raise with KJ A10 QJ J10 ever those are horrible hands in NL and will not win you money over time. You have to realize the NL is all about the pairs. Most money in NL ring games are won with pocket pairs. A set in NL is so deceptive that it is incredible how profitable it is. My advice would be to limp with any pair from any positon and dont raise with 1010. With JJ limp in every position but the CO and the Button. A set of J's without a raise is extremely deceptive and is quickly rising to the top of my most profitable hands as I have started limping more with JJ and not raising.

hm...I looked at the Limit chart and for 99/88/77 , M-1R and L-1R, it says F (unless multiway pot) While for 66-22, M-1R and L-1R, it says C.

This chart is a great start. Maybe put it into excel. I started one in december that was less detailed. I don't really use it much any more since after a while you know anyway. But for beginners, this should help many people.

Most definately would like to see an excel chart, if anyone has the time/generosity to put one together..

perhaps a little clarification on what would happen, particularly in EP, if u have called w/ something like KJ and someone fires out a raise behind you.

Originally Posted by Borax

hm...I looked at the Limit chart and for 99/88/77 , M-1R and L-1R, it says F (unless multiway pot) While for 66-22, M-1R and L-1R, it says C.

66-22 says F except with 0R in every position. And actually, with 99-77 there's an exception to the rule that the rest of the hands at their levels followed (hence the parenthesis and the second listing of C).

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by Staresy

perhaps a little clarification on what would happen, particularly in EP, if u have called w/ something like KJ and someone fires out a raise behind you.

I don't think you can have a standard play here. It's going to depend on the size of the raise and also on the player. If they raise with almost anything, you probably call. If they are very tight, you fold. If you have no read, I'd judge on the size of the raise - call what's affordable relative to your pot equity.

- Jeffrey

Originally Posted by Tottenham

Most definately would like to see an excel chart, if anyone has the time/generosity to put one together..

How would an excel chart differ from this? Just curious what you'd want to show up differently, as I this was about the most compact/easily referrenced display I could come up with.

- Jeffrey

Not sure what everyone was looking for in excel, but it would be easier for everyone to customize their own I think.

Try this, I didn't change any of the values, just the formatting a little.

Great chart though Jeff, I wanted to make something like this and couldn't decide on a format.

http://ultraseam.freesuperhost.com/startinghands.xls

Excel is easier to send to somebody, print and update than HTML. Plus the html has style sheets and other clutter in the code.

Bored at work.

http://ultraseam.freesuperhost.com/startinghands2.xls

Try this one, I divided up for each hand by group of the ones listed on FTR main page.

Used conditional formatting, Enter R, C, F and the colors show. Should be able to customize it to your personal needs.

Still have the same decisions as the original, I haven't looked at it in depth enough to make any changes.

What does the Headers of each column mean. (E - 01, etc.)

E = Early Position
M = Middle Position
L = Late Position

0R = no raises before you act
1R = 1 Raise
#R = multiple raises before you (or in some cases a major raise)

http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/g...stats/expValue

Poker hands listed by expected value and position.

Heres another word file with various odds by hand that I ehh borrowed and reformated that might be useful to someone.

Poker Odds

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Basically since any two cards can win, you want to build the pot by re-raising preflop as long as you have 2(two) cards. This is a +EV situation because of the implied odds. If dealt anything but 2 cards call the floorman immediately.

You get a gold star.

Originally Posted by TylerK

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Basically since any two cards can win, you want to build the pot by re-raising preflop as long as you have 2(two) cards. This is a +EV situation because of the implied odds. If dealt anything but 2 cards call the floorman immediately.

You get a gold star.

Thanks! Let me add that if anyone goes all in preflop then call with any two because that person is obviously bluffing.

a chart would be nice

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Ummm...Ok there are a lot of mistakes in that chart. First of all never fold a pocket pair unless someone raises too much for you to have imlied odds on them. Second of all dont raise with KJ A10 QJ J10 ever those are horrible hands in NL and will not win you money over time. You have to realize the NL is all about the pairs. Most money in NL ring games are won with pocket pairs. A set in NL is so deceptive that it is incredible how profitable it is. My advice would be to limp with any pair from any positon and dont raise with 1010. With JJ limp in every position but the CO and the Button. A set of J's without a raise is extremely deceptive and is quickly rising to the top of my most profitable hands as I have started limping more with JJ and not raising.

I'm with him ... pocket pairs rule. If the PFR that I need to call to see the flop is 1/8th or less of my stack (and my opponents) then I'll call everytime since the implied odds are there. Up 'til now 99 has been my favorite hand since I'll limp/call from any position and when I make the set then it will likely be top or mid set. I'll probably continue to raise JJ pre-flop but maybe I'll add TT to the limp/call list of hands.

mj

For anyone that is interested, I have written a MATLAB program in which I can put in any starting hand and it does a 2000 trial Monte Carlo simulation with that starting against all possible starting hands and against "strong betting" hands. It outputs the percentage of times the starting hand won against random and strong hands.

I ran the program on all pocket hands and all strong suited and offsuit mixed rank cards from AK down to T8 (I think), and plotted it in an Excel sheet. It is probably nothing different than you can find in some poker book, but it somehow meant more to me since I programmed it. The only caution is that (for now) it is only dealing in heads up situations. I will re-write it so that I can compare the hand against multiple opponents.

If anyone is interested in the MATLAB programs or the Excel sheet, just shoot me a PM.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/vadius/16003.html

^ Thousands of simulated hands against each possible starting hand with table sizes ranging from 2 to 10. Listed in order of win percentage at a 10 hand table (though this was done assuming that all 10 would stay in, so it's iffy about how helpful this part is). Giving credit where its due: I didn't program this - one of my friends did.

- Jeffrey