Some random thoughts

As if my previous pessimistic mood was a forebode of things to come, it turned out to be "one of those days". Sets on my AA, flopping trips and guy with overpair hitting a boat even though I overraised the pot, runner runner straight by the table donk, you name it, I saw it.

But I kept some track in my head of how I lost money. Started the session with $270, down to $225, so I lost $45 total. Now, the funny thing is that even though the cards hated me today, I actually lost MORE on "stupidity" than on actual card suckage. The "net loss" on card variance is $20. The other $25 I lost on stupidity.. but a calculated kind. The reason is that I wanted to try out some things, because there is one specific thing that isn't too clear to me yet, one improvement I want to incorporate into my game.

The first $10 were lost on a stupid bluff. I just wanted to see what my opp would do, for feedback purposes. I knew it was probably stupid, but I just wanted to know. And yeah, he ended up doing what I suspected, and having the hand I suspected too.

The other $15 that I lost on "stupid play" were because of this one thing that's been playing in my mind lately, a definite thing I can improve on in my game. Bluffing at the lower limits isn't very profitable, and actually isn't all *too* profitable on the whole. It clouds your real hands and can take down a bunch of little pots.. but you are usually never going to make "big winnings" on bluffs. I bluff now and then when the situation calls for it, but to go strong on bluffing is lunacy imho. (because you'll not be destacking someone even if you can succesfully bluff a lot of the time.. it's always relatively smaller pots)

There is however another matter that DOES have a high return-on-investment if you can get it right.. and that is: seeing through bluffs and semi-bluffs. Sometimes people just stone cold bluff, and I am sensing some sort of pattern to "catch" these, but it's still not too sure so I needed to call some raises just to see what they did actually have. Another thing is the semi-bluff; Typically an all-in from a player with a not-too-large stack, which isn't always a monster, but can just as likely be a draw of some sort. I guess their reasoning is "if I push, they'll probably fold, and if they don't, I could still get lucky". But the truth of the matter is, calling these semi-bluffs with a simple TP is +EV.

The hands you see people do this with are flush draws, double sided straight draws and even simple gut shots. All of them have <50% to hit. So if the average situation is a 3x pot all-in, that leaves you with a 42% investment to call, for a >50% chance to win.. so given that you can with some accuracy sniff out these bluffs and semi-bluffs, they give you a potentially nice ROI.


But anyway, the point is here.. I just thought it was surprising that on the whole, even though the cards totally sucked, I ended up losing more on my "experiments" than on card variance!

i think your thoughts are generally correct here. good instincts

Why thank you Aaah and the cards have improved, already made back my $45 loss just now

*knocks on wood*

(edit here and in first post, loss was $45 not $55 doh)

Ok, the knocking on wood didn't help. A whole lotta nothing for hours (including getting AA on 3 consecutive hands and netting a whopping $2 from it) and then 2 buy-ins gone in 3 minutes. The first one was boat under boat, not much can be said there. But the second one has me rather confused. Tell me what you guys think.

My hand: KK.

Guy to my right raises $0.60
I reraise to $1.2
He 3-bets to $5.4

This is boat/overboat guy again, but I had just moved to this table so no real reads yet. I put him on AA/QQ.. maybe AK/JJ. My stack is $19.90, his is higher.

I call.

Pot: $11
Flop: AA7.

Hm. I'm thinking about card likelyhoods now. I scratch AA off the list. So that leaves QQ/JJ and maybe AK, but I mark down AK as a little less likely b/c of the two Aces on the flop.

He checks. I check.

Pot: $11
Turn: 7.

He raises $4.

Hmf. Could be trying to steal the pot.. or slowplaying his AK.

I call.

Pot: $19
River: 2

He pushes. I have $10.5 left.

So I'm thinking.. I might be beat here.. but QQ/JJ, I have those beat. And I only need to call for 25% of the pot. Semi-crying call so to speak.

I call. He flips AK. Goddamn lucky bastard!

But that was my reasoning during the hand being played. Right after, I start beating myself up over it. That basically I neglected to take into account that he sees the flop too! So he sees 2 Aces.. is he going to get aggressive if he doesn't have them? So that the $4 call was maybe excusable, but that calling the push wasn't.

And, in retrospect, maybe it would have been best to raise the flop after he checked.. a call or push would then have told me I was beat. But I'm still a bit lost, because the sheer size of the pot seems to justify crying calls.

Or just push preflop so that this basically becomes a bad beat?.. if I could do it again, probably $4 raise on the flop, then fold to a push and check/fold after a call.. but still not sure about all this..

So yeah.. what do you guys think?..

With regards to your first post:

Firstly, I call those pushes all day long with weak hands. They are obvious semi-bluffs.

Second, I feel you could have recieved results for your "experiments" for free if you payed proper attention to the hands going on when your not in them. I don't think it's wise to pay for the info you gained. They sound suspiciously like fishy "just to see" bets. I think you know all this already though, I just wanted to say it.

With regards to the hand:

3x his raise PF. Minraises are shit.

Originally Posted by jackvance

the $4 call was maybe excusable, but that calling the push wasn't.

Yep.

Originally Posted by jackvance

And, in retrospect, maybe it would have been best to raise the flop after he checked.. a call or push would then have told me I was beat.

No. Betting solely for info is -EV. If you bet the flop, the only hand that calls you is one that beats you so by definition that bet cannot have a positive expectation.

Irisheyes, how would you have played the flop onwards? Simple check/fold?

Check/call then check again on the turn.
If he check behind on the flop then bet the turn.

I'm interested to hear other people take on this situation.

You don't mention when you'd fold, which is the key. If the guy has an ace he's not going to let you check down for cheap, so your way involves at the very least calling one bet before you fold. Why not be the one who makes the bet, then you both retain fold equity and you can choose how much to invest?

I am totally not claiming my instinct is right here, but my immediate and strong reaction is to bet the flop. Feel free to explain why this is *always* -EV cos I can't quite grasp that.

there is a lot of material on this forum on this topic, but to summarize it is the following:

don't bet an A-high flop WITH NO LIKELY DRAWS (AA7 definitely, or AJ5 probably... often even 2 suited if you have the K of that suit), with KK if it's checked to you in position. Be prepared to call at least one sensible (0.5-1x pot) bet before folding. What you do when faced with a second bet depends on your read and the situation and the size of the bet and board texture.

The situation is murkier if you have KK out of position. I'm usually betting it and folding to stiff resistance.

Originally Posted by biondino

If the guy has an ace he's not going to let you check down for cheap,

Ya exactly. QQ/JJ etc. is not going to be to eager about putting their whole stack in here so if he bets strong on two streets you can read that as an A and fold correctly.

Originally Posted by biondino

so your way involves at tery least calling one bet before you fold.

Yep. check/calling gains value from QQ/JJ and other hands you can beat because they bet the flop thinking they are ahead of your check. It gains value from a bluff (and alot of people see this flop as a good bluffing oppertunity). Checking also reps an A better then betting.

On the other hand check/calling loses value against someone with an A.

Originally Posted by biondino

Why not be the one who makes the bet, then you both retain fold equity and you can choose how much to invest?

What good is FE against a hand which you can beat in a showdown anyway? You have no FE against a villan with an A.


On the other hand, lets look at betting the flop.

Hands which you can beat QQ/JJ/Bluff just fold. EV = 0

Hands which beat you raise (or call). EV = negative

So, where can the value for this bet come from?


Does this make sense to anyone else? I could be way off base here.

Originally Posted by biondino

Why not be the one who makes the bet, then you both retain fold equity

Why do you want fold equity? There is no way an A is laying down and have everything else drawing to probably 2 outs. Fold equity sucks if the only hands that fold are the ones that you beat.

I want fold equity because QQ or JJ might gain confidence and bet me off the pot if I show weakness.

Originally Posted by biondino

I want fold equity because QQ or JJ might gain confidence and bet me off the pot if I show weakness.

If you check/call, then check again, you have all the fold equity in the world against a guy without an A, without even betting.

If he bets the turn again he has an ace 90% of the time.

Originally Posted by biondino

I want fold equity because QQ or JJ might gain confidence and bet me off the pot if I show weakness.

I think a check looks just as much like a slowplay as it does weakness.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Firstly, I call those pushes all day long with weak hands. They are obvious semi-bluffs.

Obvious to you .. but this is a weakness in my game still.. however I think I'm getting better at catching those.

Second, I feel you could have recieved results for your "experiments" for free if you payed proper attention to the hands going on when your not in them. I don't think it's wise to pay for the info you gained. They sound suspiciously like fishy "just to see" bets. I think you know all this already though, I just wanted to say it.

Indeed I know this. If I can get the info from other people showing down, I'm not gonna donk call to "see it for myself again". But these two instances where I called em down, were when I wasn't getting to see the actual hand to this betting pattern. I believe the first instance was a table where people folded easily, and a guy strongly bet a flop with 3 diamonds. I had pegged the guy as a typical thinking player. Here I was wondering if this would mean he actually had the 2 diamonds, or that he didn't and just wanted to push off draws with something like TP, or yet again "overbet" a flush draw, trying to use the scare-factor of the flop. It'd seem not too wise to bet too strong when you have em on a fold-heavy table, so I wanted to know. (He ended up having it) The other case I don't remember exactly, but it was similar in that I wasn't going to see what hand this betting pattern represented easily, so I called it down for the learning experience.

3x his raise PF. Minraises are shit.

I have to respectfully disagree here. I think either is fine here because basically there is no pot yet. I had no read yet on how the table responds to heavy raises, so I decided to play it to the lower margin of my normal raise here.

No. Betting solely for info is -EV. If you bet the flop, the only hand that calls you is one that beats you so by definition that bet cannot have a positive expectation.

After reading all the replies here, I think you are right here. Without a proper read to tell me otherwise, the line I should have used here was check/call (a not-too-high raise) and then check/fold afterwards.

The only sidenote I have to make here is that anything more than a 1/2 pot bet would REALLY have pot committed me. So a bet *could* be justified on the grounds that I can then set the height of the raise, instead of letting my opponent do so. Here he bet $4.. but what if he best $6 or $7? I would have had to call those too right? So maybe a case *could* be made for going first, on the grounds that I make sure any betting done is weak.

Generally though, this doesn't matter and the first line is the better one I think, because I had position. He has to show his strength sooner or later because otherwise I'll just check behind him. If he would have had position on me, THAT would make the prospect of a bluff a bigger risk so like salsa said, there the "betting first"-line can be considered.

Hands which you can beat QQ/JJ/Bluff just fold. EV = 0

Hands which beat you raise (or call). EV = negative

So, where can the value for this bet come from?

The value comes from not being pushed off of a better hand later.. but I do agree that if I think about it now it looks to be on the whole -EV in this particular situation.


And eh, I think I pretty much got the answers I was looking for, so thanks everyone

Originally Posted by jackvance

3x his raise PF. Minraises are shit.

I have to respectfully disagree here. I think either is fine here because basically there is no pot yet. I had no read yet on how the table responds to heavy raises, so I decided to play it to the lower margin of my normal raise here.

It's nothing to do with reads or anything. Its a straight up pot odds related mistake. When you minraise you are offering him greater than 3:1 on his call to see a flop. This gives him mathematically correct odds to call here with lots of hands. Even with a low pocket pair (which is a 4:1 dog), based on implied odds it is correct for him to call your raise. Now I don't know about you but I like it when my opponents make mistakes at the poker table. I also like to help them make mathmaticly incorrect calls. So 3x his raise.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

It's nothing to do with reads or anything. Its a straight up pot odds related mistake. When you minraise you are offering him greater than 3:1 on his call to see a flop. This gives him mathematically correct odds to call here with lots of hands. Even with a low pocket pair (which is a 4:1 dog), based on implied odds it is correct for him to call your raise. Now I don't know about you but I like it when my opponents make mistakes at the poker table. I also like to help them make mathmaticly incorrect calls. So 3x his raise.

I really think it *is* based on reads here. I have the second best hand imagineable, so most likely I'm ahead. If he folds, I get nothing. Incorporating the blinds, my reraise was basically a 3/4-pot bet. Now unless you always overbet the pot on every street just to be safe, I really don't think you can straight out claim this to be a mistake.

If I'm pretty sure they'll call me anyway, ofcourse I'll raise harder.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I really don't think you can straight out claim this to be a mistake.

Ya I can. It's a mistake, pretty much 3/4 of the winning players on FTR (and David Sklansky) will tell you that. I explained why it is a mistake, you can ignore my (and David Sklansky's) advice if you want, but it will cost you.



On a more joyous note:



OMG I made >$2000 today!!




Sorry just needed to get that out.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Ya I can. It's a mistake, pretty much 3/4 of the winning players on FTR (and David Sklansky) will tell you that. I explained why it is a mistake, you can ignore my (and David Sklansky's) advice if you want, but it will cost you.

Hm it's a bit harsh to say I "ignore" it lol, because I say I only do this at my first 2-3 cycles around the table until I get a proper read on how the table plays.

On a more joyous note:



OMG I made >$2000 today!!




Sorry just needed to get that out.

I feel like saying: OMG YOU'RE SO RESULTS-ORIENTED, but I'll say what I really want to say and that would be: CONGRATS

Oh yeah, there was something I forgot to mention.

Yesterday, after mulling over how to play this and interpret that for the umpteenth time, I just got sick of it all. Went on tilt or something. Fuck poker! So I went to 50NL and played total maniac style. Blew my whole BR in about 40 minutes.

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

On a more joyous note:



OMG I made >$2000 today!!




Sorry just needed to get that out.

Maybe we need to add our own winner's circle for ring games. That's huge!! Congrats.

What level?

Originally Posted by chardrian

Maybe we need to add our own winner's circle for ring games. That's huge!! Congrats.

What level?

Thanks char, it was a 5 hour session at 400NL.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Oh yeah, there was something I forgot to mention.

Yesterday, after mulling over how to play this and interpret that for the umpteenth time, I just got sick of it all. Went on tilt or something. Fuck poker! So I went to 50NL and played total maniac style. Blew my whole BR in about 40 minutes.

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

Jack, considering the context of the rest of this thread and your previous posts in it, I really don't know what to make of this.

I'm sorry to hear it.

fwiw, i'd like to give you a piece of life advice. I think it would be a good idea for you to slow down every once in a while and consider the possibility that someone, other then yourself, could possibly be right about something. I don't claim to know you very well but I get the impression from your posts on FTR that you don't do this often enough.

gl Jack.

Originally Posted by jackvance

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

Im not sure this is 100% true statement. I think you just need to follow a stricter and proven BR management than the one you set for yourself. If you were to do this, and stop playing out of your BR then I think you would be fine.

Originally Posted by jackvance

So I went to 50NL and played total maniac style. Blew my whole BR in about 40 minutes.

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

Settle down jack. It is not that bad. Take a break and come back at this level headed. Don't change your style just because you move up in limits or something in your personal life triggers you.

I'm not that good at poker but my strength compared to 25% of the online poker players(25NL and under) is Bankroll Management(thanks to FTR). Read, understand and follow the br advice here at FTR. Building a bankroll is a slow process. Earning bonuses has helped me to build mine while playing just a little better than average poker.

Please try poker again. You know you can do it.
good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by jackvance

Oh yeah, there was something I forgot to mention.

Yesterday, after mulling over how to play this and interpret that for the umpteenth time, I just got sick of it all. Went on tilt or something. Fuck poker! So I went to 50NL and played total maniac style. Blew my whole BR in about 40 minutes.

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

Awwww CHRIST!!!

Well I am now mulling over how to best respond to this post. I have to admit, there is a small part of me saying "nah nah told you so" - but the bigger part of me is just feeling bad for you.

Jack - you have finally gone down the road that all of us were trying to get you off of. The reason we were trying was because many of us have already gone down it. I am clearly a horrible learner because I have gone down that road at least 3 times. Yes, the great charizard has busted (or come as close to busting as you can get) numerous times. And each time it was because I got sick of the bad beats - sick of the grinding - and just said fuck it. I'll put my entire bankroll up at a NL table and double it up. I am due, right?? Busting that roll is a sickening feeling. You KNOW you shouldn't have done it, but you still did.

I do think you are smart enough that you can make money at this. But the whole thing of online poker is staying in control of your emotions, not worrying about other's play or other's bankrolls, and just slowly grinding your way up the ladder. The bankroll guidelines that you see here are set up specifically so that people won't bust. I understand that following them can be boring, time consuming, and just difficult because you want to test your true merit against "real" players and not these fish. But IF you follow them, you WON'T go bust.

It's a huge ego downer to take some its and realize that you need to move DOWN and not UP in stakes. And that itch to actually move up, "but just this one time to double up", is HUGE. I have succumber to that itch too many times. Unfortunately I always end up scratching that itch so much that I just end up one big scabby mess.

I hope you scrounge up another small roll Jack. But this time, take it slow. I don't care about any other advice you receive here - but if you follwo the bankroll advice - you will never go bust.

I don't think it's possible to not burn the BR at least once for most of us. You may get lucky and start off on a streak but in the long run, after grinding for nickels and winning, ya just want to hurry it up. I've gone up to $250 and down to $50 ten times in my three month career playing a BR management a little loose (15 buy-ins playing3 or 4 tables. I have finally shifted over to party for all my ring games. Playing the beginner tables is a chore s0metimes. When ya make $60+ a year at a regular day job it's hard to get excited sometimes over grinding 4 hours for 2 buy-ins but I find if I watch the stats and the numbers, instead of the money, it will come. I think all of you have stressed over and over again, the same thoughts as are being said again here, I can't beleive how great you guys are at coming to the aid of guys that constantly rebuff your responses to there questions, and refuse the help. This is not a slag, on anyone, just another thanks to you guys for doing what no one has to do, give free, time tested advice for no other reason but to help. Maybe, getting to say I told ya so is your reward for a job well done.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Hm. I'm thinking about card likelyhoods now. I scratch AA off the list. So that leaves QQ/JJ and maybe AK, but I mark down AK as a little less likely b/c of the two Aces on the flop.

I just can't understand this logic. If there's one card in the deck that has a high likelihood of being played with a crap kicker preflop (especially at microstakes), it's an A.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your end, Jack.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Oh yeah, there was something I forgot to mention.

Yesterday, after mulling over how to play this and interpret that for the umpteenth time, I just got sick of it all. Went on tilt or something. Fuck poker! So I went to 50NL and played total maniac style. Blew my whole BR in about 40 minutes.

So, I guess despite my best efforts, I was just too feeble-minded and simply not cut out to play poker afterall.

The end, I guess.

You are gonna be obsessed with something for weeks, making 600 or so posts along with it, not take anyones advice about anything, and just quit?

That really sucks. You're too feeble minded? Look at some of us! There are some fuckin serious dimwits here at FTR who are raking in mounds of cash. I can't even lay down an overpair and I still have managed to make 3 grand in two months.

You aren't feeble minded. You are weak, and you lack discipline and humility.

You are in one of the final phases of the newb circle of death (the one most newbs never leave, unless they quit), and I pity you because I was there once too.

When I got pokertracker, I had been playing for a couple of months. I imported all of my hands since I had started and it was awful. I was playin 35 percent of hands, I didn't use position, I couldn't lay hands down, and I slowplayed EVERYTHING. But I was like you and I thought "hey, I've read Phil Hellmuth's Play Poker Like the Pros, I can beat this game. And I promptly lost my initial 200 dollars.

I am disappointed.

It had nothing to do with bad beats or anything like that. Poker was living me, and that wasn't the plan. I obsessed over it b/c that is how I get good at things quickly. And yes, I'm good at poker. Not as good ofcourse as many people here with tons of experience, and I don't have much to show for yet, but I know I am good, even though a lot of you put me in a 'newbie circle of death' or think I'm just hitting some sort of upswing of good cards or that I'm too stubborn to see my mistakes, but I *know* I'm already a winning player, and given a couple months to prove it and build further, I hope I can get something to show for too.

But poker was living me. The obsession didn't stop. I kept putting off too many important things.. social life, women, my studies, various other responsibilities. It had to stop. So I cashed out $100, sat down at 50NL with my remaining $150 and donked it away. I had to pull the plug, and this was the only way I could see.

It's better now. A lot better. I am better able to fit poker into my life, as I had foreseen it. Just play a bit every day, and not care too much about what happens. My focus has shifted back to the more important matters. Whatever money I donked away in the past really doesn't matter in the long run, it's peanuts. So ofcourse I didn't quit poker.. that would be folly after I spent so much time and energy getting good at it. The "obsession" had to end though.

Redeposited the $100, and been playing a bit everyday still, made some more money, will be moving to other sites to bonus whore some time in the future, etc. Also discovered that I want to pursue MTTs, but still need to work on my game (experience), but I already understand the basic strategic concepts. Another thing is live games, I see some future in those too, as I have a knack for reading people. But anyway, on the whole, over the past month and a half, I turned my $60 into $360 (mostly in the last 2 weeks), while learning the game. If I can now grind further and use poker as a little side-income, then I am happy.. because that was the initial plan all along.

How does all this happen in two days? It's like your living three lives. You go thru ups and downs In one thread more than I have in my three month career. You must be a cancer. Is this a poker forum or a psycologists office. It's always the same thread.
1 Why'd this happen?"
2 Now I figured it out. My freinds showed me how.
3 Donked off a few to find something out, Maybe it's variance
4 Maybe I'm wrong
5 Lifes great gonna do this or that.

And all the while trying to prove whoever gave you advice to the original post was wrong. And you know it all. Gotta tell ya I've been here 2 months , and you will be the first persons post I skip over from now on. i'm just to busy with work, home and poker to deal with "as the Jackvance turns" soap opera

.. I'm a nice guy in real life though..

Originally Posted by jackvance

.. I'm a nice guy in real life though..

You'd need to be real real good..

Whatever you do jack, don't try cocaine. Or are you doing it already.

I reccommend changing your avatar to a hot chick.

good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by flomo

I reccommend changing your avatar to a hot chick.

It's Luffy from One Piece, my favorite anime and the only series I follow really. You should watch it, it's great!

good luck
flomo

It's going ok I guess. Been leaking some money because I have picked up MTTs but still donk my chips away, no ITM yet. Often when I make a mistake, I half-realize it when I do so. Mostly I become too greedy too quickly, especially when I win some and make a high position. From ring experience, that means it just takes some time and experience to get used to, so I'm not giving up, playing two more MTTs later today. I can already see the lower-money MTTs have many sucky players, so I think once I get it down it could be a nice possible income too, just like ring. Plus they are great fun

And still grinding 10NL for about two hours per day.. put my total poker fortune to $400 now; $250 is cashed out and spent already, $150 in the active roll. It's a bit annoying, because I want a bigger roll to go play at 20NL again, plus I'd like to have some extra so I can go to other pokersites.. AND I *really* need more money irl too. I might be getting some money through some other things I've picked up again, so that would definately help. But whatever, we'll see.

Btw how are you doing flomo? You're a nice guy, I hope poker is treating you well

Originally Posted by jackvance

Been leaking some money because I have picked up MTTs but still donk my chips away, no ITM yet. Often when I make a mistake, I half-realize it when I do so. Mostly I become too greedy too quickly, especially when I win some and make a high position. From ring experience, that means it just takes some time and experience to get used to, so I'm not giving up, playing two more MTTs later today. I can already see the lower-money MTTs have many sucky players, so I think once I get it down it could be a nice possible income too, just like ring. Plus they are great fun

Unless you have a big bankroll to absorb the enormous swings of MTTdom (which you don't), playing MTTs is a leak.

Originally Posted by Renton

Unless you have a big bankroll to absorb the enormous swings of MTTdom (which you don't), playing MTTs is a leak.

Please.. not again. Just let me be. Ring more than makes up for the $1-$5 MTTs I've been playing. And the BR requirements were 20x the buy-in right? so I'm actually rolled for them come to think of it.

jack - if you can't take advice. Why bother posting?

I hear 100x is the MTT number.

Originally Posted by chardrian

jack - if you can't take advice. Why bother posting?

Well Chardrian, I really don't want to start a fuss here again over these trivial things, but what if every post you make is met with a simple "XXX is a leak/mistake". But whatever, I've found my routine, it's all good.

No, Jack, it's not all good. Its really hard to start out. I lost my original 100 dollars, and then 200 dollars before I figured the necessary things out. I am still struggling. Its an eternal struggle.

We're just lookin out for you. You seem to be on the cusp of being busted and/or burnt out, so I thought "why not help?"

You won't hear any more advice from me.

Good luck... well wait, its not really a game of luck now is it?

Listen - you know by now that I am not into flaming, or trying to trash people.

But CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is what makes you a better player. You don't seem to want to hear ANY criticism. Instead it appears that all you want is an ego boost.

If you want to hear "oooh jack you are such a smart guy, I am sure you have everything mapped out and it will all work out" go to pocketfives.

We're here to try and improve each other's games. Not stroke egos (or other body parts).

When you say things like "I don't want to fuss over trivial things" when that "trivial thing" is your bankroll - you are basically spitting in the face of all the advice you are getting here. If you want advice on how to play hands, just post the hand histories. If you no longer want advice on how to actually increase your roll without going bust, just don't even mention what your actual bankroll is or what stakes you are playing anymore.

Sorry to rant but your posts keep coming back to the same things, and it's getting old. Since you are so smart you should know what the responses are going to be. Think about what you are posting before you actually post it if you don't want certain replies.

Originally Posted by Renton

You won't hear any more advice from me.

Heh, I must say Renton, I do respect your opinions; You are in fact one of the people who has inspired me a great deal, and I have learnt a great deal from you. Not so much in the advice you gave directly, but the openness with which you post your results and general thoughts. For one thing, it was your post about the ptBB/100 that you were getting that really helped me because I never really knew what to expect. Also your experiences when moving in stakes have shaped my plans on my own move-ups, what to expect, etc. But like I said, I like to do things my own way. Your reply just seemed like more of the constant criticism I've been getting. It was a bit confusing to me since I said I was just grinding a bit every day and playing a few low $$ MTTs for practice and you think that means I'm on the road to busting out?...

Good luck... well wait, its not really a game of luck now is it?

Atleast I don't think so.

Sorry to rant but your posts keep coming back to the same things, and it's getting old. Since you are so smart you should know what the responses are going to be. Think about what you are posting before you actually post it if you don't want certain replies.

You are right, I should have know. But the thing is, I really don't have much to say. I don't really have any questions.. no real hand histories I have doubts on or anything. I get tons of valuable info here, from reading other posts and other people's experiences, but I don't have any questions that come to mind.

For me, reading about other people's experiences with poker teaches me the most. So, yeah, I hadn't posted much lately, so I decided to just give a little heads-up. If you think I'm fishing for compliments, hm, my results aren't that great I think. Just, kinda, grinding rings. Now trying MTTs a bit, with no results yet. And from the replies some of my other posts have gotten, I got the impression some people *do* appreciate a simple sharing of experiences. It can help them relate, know what is possible, what to expect, etc. Renton's posts amongst other things have helped me in that way in fact, but I think more people that come to the beginner's forum here are on lower stakes. I wish more people posted their "results".. the good AND the bad.

I like people to post their results too.

I do it in my blog and in a thread in Poker Etcetera.

In fact, I have always liked how honest you have been.

What I don't like is when you are honest and then you get an honest reply that your bankroll management still sucks. And your reply is basically - stop telling me that.

Originally Posted by chardrian

I do it in my blog and in a thread in Poker Etcetera.

Ah, never read (or made) blogs, sounds like an idea though.

What I don't like is when you are honest and then you get an honest reply that your bankroll management still sucks. And your reply is basically - stop telling me that.

I don't see how it sucks. 10NL is pretty "safe".. there are plenty of fish so that if you play a decent game, there isn't too much risk at over 10 buy-ins. I'm running +EV grinding it. So I do a few low limits MTTs (below $5) to learn the ropes. I don't see the problem. I think I'm managing my BR pretty decently, given my situation (needing money IRL).

To me it came off to be more of a flame. But apparently Renton thought I was on the verge of busting out? But I've really just found my routine and am just calmly playing each day on routine.

ever had a 10 buyin downswing?

Originally Posted by Renton

ever had a 10 buyin downswing?

Yes, I've experienced two of those. But from - granted, limited - experience, there would need to be a real statistical anomaly to get that at 10NL the way I play now and the way my opponents play. Even so, it would totally suck, but I can take it.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by flomo

I reccommend changing your avatar to a hot chick.

It's Luffy from One Piece, my favorite anime and the only series I follow really. You should watch it, it's great!

If you are going to be here posting a 100 posts per day, please do me a favor and change your avatar to a hot chick(big breasts are very pleasurable for my eyes). thank you

Originally Posted by jackvance

Btw how are you doing flomo? You're a nice guy, I hope poker is treating you well

I'm doing ok, whoring at the 25NL tables on pacific currently. Poker should be good until the bonuses wear out and i have to play better poker to increase my bankroll.

good luck

Originally Posted by flomo

If you are going to be here posting a 100 posts per day, please do me a favor and change your avatar to a hot chick(big breasts are very pleasurable for my eyes). thank you

Oh I'm done with that. Btw, you don't have an avatar, maybe put up a big breasted hottie on there?

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by flomo

If you are going to be here posting a 100 posts per day, please do me a favor and change your avatar to a hot chick(big breasts are very pleasurable for my eyes). thank you

Oh I'm done with that. Btw, you don't have an avatar, maybe put up a big breasted hottie on there?

i try to stay invisible and i'm a computer idiot

Maybe it's beginners "confidence", but I never took anything you said as fishing for compliments, or bragging, just a guy new to poker trying to make his way up/down the learning curve. I'm in the $5NL at party and at times I feel I have it all figured out, other times I get pawned by someone.

I feel like I've gone through about the same things you have, just far less eloquently. I also hear you loud and clear w/r/t keeping poker in perspective with the rest of your life. Something I struggle with as well, surprisingly playing online has completely cured my other habit of playing a different online game (mtgo). Go figure.

So, to keep from rambling, I hope you figure it out for yourself, and, more importantly, enjoy the ride.

Good luck.