Some NL hands-- comments PLEASE. Renton? Pelion? Bueller?

I hope I'm not violating any rules, as I posted these in NL Hand Histories but got no comments. But I really do want to know if I'm being a retard in situations like these.

HAND 1:

So, raise the flop for information/make him pay for his draw/get control of the hand back-- if he pushes the flop all-in do you fold? Also, is my turn bet good (serving notice that we're playing for stacks/I like my hand/don't donk bet me on a draw in the future when I've raised preflop/I know you're on a draw and you've got nothing now)?

And if the Ad instead of Ac falls on the turn-- what do you do?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($3.45)
BB ($44.74)
UTG ($30.75)
UTG+1 ($5.19)
MP1 ($11.75)
MP2 ($104.70)
MP3 ($29.74)
Hero ($33.52)
Button ($6.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, BB calls $1, MP2 calls $1.

Flop: ($3.85) 7, 8, J (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $5, BB folds, MP2 calls $3.

Turn: ($13.85) A (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $15

HAND 2:

These postflop situations come up all the time and I still don't think I'm playing them right. I could be housed by QT already if he likes hanging around with overcards, AT/KT/TT has an OESD plus the club draw is out there (of course, I could be being slowplayed by 22, 88, or 99). Should I be ready to serve notice that I'm playing my stack now? Is there any way to bet strong enough to push out draws but not so much that you don't pay off a slowplayed set?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($20.95)
CO ($3.70)
Button ($42.29)
SB ($30.85)
BB ($5.94)
UTG ($43.58)
UTG+1 ($108.20)
UTG+2 ($30.09)
Hero ($30.82)
MP2 ($6.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.

Flop: ($2.85) 2, 8, 9 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Turn: ($6.85) J (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $7


HAND 3:

OK, this hand... sorry for the long preamble but there are a lot of things to consider. I'm new to the table-- probably only my 5th hand but I'd watched an orbit and identified the villain this hand as LAGgish but the table was otherwise quite passive. I was planning on a somewhat loose preflop game to run over the tighties and to screw with the LAG if I hit a big hand. The villain has shown that he will fold to aggression, though. My plan this hand was to raise and c-bet (since I expected to catch air)/shut down to aggression (if the table were looser I'd have open limped). Except the flop hit me and I got a little thrown as to what to do. I raised preflop with a small pair and have a set with an A high rainbow board. Is there any value to be had this hand?

Here was my thinking (please comment/tear apart as you see fit):
The reason for the donk flop minbet is that I'm pretty new to the table so noone has a read on me and I've got the LAG with me-- I figured it best to build the pot some and look weak at the same time and hope the LAG lives up to my read and try to use his position to take control of the pot. I assume he'll think I'm a usual Party donk (heck, maybe I am). The villain has been playing position very aggressively stealing dry orphan pots and pouncing on weakness (57%/12%/4.0 over 33 hands at the end of my session, so I think my initial impression was right). If the villain doesn't have an A, I don't see him staying in this pot with a usual lead strong c-bet, as I've seen him roll over to strong bets in unraised pots by the tight big stack and the other Tight-Passives. So he reraises my minbet . If he does have an A (hopefully AK/AQ/AJ) maybe I've got a chance to stack him if he's stubborn enough. 44-TT or he's just repping the A maybe. I figured if anything this was good for metagame purposes to serve notice to him to tread carefully when he's in a pot with me and keep him guessing in the future. We still need a bigger pot on the turn if we have any hope of getting his stack so I reraise him weak. Was the reraise itself too strong? I didn't reraise much-- callable if he's on anything other than a naked bluff. Now the turn is where I got stuck. Is it better to check, or is he on the alert now that I reraised him? I'd hate to give him a free card to catch a gutshot straight/flush/set on the river with me OOP. I was thinking a $3 bet since he put in $2.25 on the flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($21.30)
MP3 ($4.05)
CO ($37.64)
Button ($29.25)
SB ($7.59)
BB ($43.13)
UTG ($118.15)
UTG+1 ($29.89)
Hero ($26.62)
MP1 ($7)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3, 3. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, CO calls $1, 3 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) A, 3, J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $2.25, CO calls $1.25.

Turn: ($6.85) 6 (2 players)
Hero ??

Hand 1: unless he's a calling station, I don't see the point. You're only getting called by the flush there really. I'd reraise him more on the flop and if he calls hope I don't have to put in any more money..

Hand 2: same thing.. why overbet the pot here? Either he is slowplaying and you just nailed yourself, or he's not gonna call that if he got nothing. Bet in a way that makes weaker hands call too.

Hand 3: meh, I used to overanalyse like you do there, but really.. you just don't know. Just play a consistent game. Put in $4 on the turn so a worse hand will call. Or overbet the pot if you want to gamble that he'll donk call it, assuming it's a stupid bluff. And really, checking there is stupid. First you reraise then you want to slowplay? Doesn't work. Even if he folded as you bet, doesn't mean you made a mistake.. if he realizes he is beat, there is no way to extract value anymore. Oh yeah and there really is no "read" excuse for a minbet in this situation imho.

1. Would I fold to a flop push? Possibly, its a case by case but I lean toward no. I play it the same except I raise to 6 on the flop and I bet 3/4 pot on the turn. If he's made, then you don't want to bloat the pot, and you still have 10 outs to fill up and stack him so implied odds are huge for you. If he isn't made, he only has 8 outs to get made (Ad doesn't work ).

If the Ad falls on the turn instead, than you have to play this like you are drawing, because you most likely are. Try to call within your odds and hit a boat.

2. Same except I bet 5 on the turn. You don't have to bet full pot to protect against draws. Usually a potsize bet is overkill, and it bloats the pot with a one-pair hand.

3. I don't like this.

I don't think its necessary to mask the strength of your hand by raising preflop. That deception just doesn't mean anything at 25nl. I just open limp preflop and call any raise.

On the flop you minbet. Thats a very weak play. Would you have minbet if you had raised pf with AK and hit a Kxx flop? Probably not. You should bet your set just like you bet any other hand on the flop. You are giving away too much info.

I bet 2/3 this flop, and call the raise. Then I check/raise the turn. By that point they know I am strong but are too committed to care.

your post flop play needs a lot of work.

Don't pot commit yourself with no reason to do so.

what's the point of the flop raise in hand 1? The pot is $6 when it gets to you and you raise it by only $3. Pump it to at least $7.

why an over the pot bet on the turn? "serving notice that we're playing for stacks/I like my hand/don't donk bet me on a draw in the future when I've raised preflop/I know you're on a draw and you've got nothing now)" doesn't do you any good. You don't want him to fold a draw. You don't want to lose all your chips if he has a made hand. On this hand as played I'd bet $10. If he flat calls a raise on the flop and check raises me substantially on the turn I'm giving him credit for a hand here... i'm just troubled by the fact he could have a lower set. Still I'd bet $10 and go from there... get some more information and invite a chase.

Hand 2 is just bad. half pot or check behind on the turn is reasonable.

Hand 3 isn't terrible. Leading out with a set is fine here. Just make a normal looking cont bet... $1.50 or something. If villain is lag he'll raise that anyway and I can escalate the pot real fast. Lets face it, you ain't getting paid unless he got an ace wants to rep it. So you might as well make it count when he does. If someone raises pre flop to me and then makes a min bet on the flop then alarm bells are ringing in my head. In villain's shoes I'd probably call with anything and raise with something strong. As played you might as well just call the flop raise and check it to him on the turn and raise it then. As played, you might as well lead the turn for something reasonable like $4.

hope this helps you.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Hand 1: unless he's a calling station, I don't see the point. You're only getting called by the flush there really. I'd reraise him more on the flop and if he calls hope I don't have to put in any more money..

If I hadn't turned the set, I agree. Yeah, I should've raised bigger on the flop. $6 maybe? Or $8? In this case, the pot was big enough that I was satisfied to take it down there (again-- am I losing value in these situations?) or gambool to double up and suck out on the river. If he wants to be stupid and hang around with a naked Ad/Kd, fine-- he's just going to have to pay.

Hand 2: same thing.. why overbet the pot here? Either he is slowplaying and you just nailed yourself, or he's not gonna call that if he got nothing. Bet in a way that makes weaker hands call too.

Yeah, the bad beats have a way of screwing with my head. I get a good hand and I just don't want to get sucked out on (but end up losing big when I've been outflopped and slowplayed). Bet 2/3 pot but proceed with caution with a club/queen/seven on the river or if he wakes up with a strong bet?

Hand 3: meh, I used to overanalyse like you do there, but really.. you just don't know. Just play a consistent game. Put in $4 on the turn so a worse hand will call. Or overbet the pot if you want to gamble that he'll donk call it, assuming it's a stupid bluff. And really, checking there is stupid. First you reraise then you want to slowplay? Doesn't work. Even if he folded as you bet, doesn't mean you made a mistake.. if he realizes he is beat, there is no way to extract value anymore. Oh yeah and there really is no "read" excuse for a minbet in this situation imho.

I bet $3 on the turn and he folded. I should just be happy to net $3 on this hand anyway. In the past I'd have open limped and probably just have netted the blinds.

Originally Posted by drtofu66

If I hadn't turned the set, I agree.

The set hardly matters here I think. It doesn't add any value. Either he has the flush, or he's gonna be folding since he probably doesn't have the ace. On such a board, the flush scare dominates everything. He'll call with the flush only (unless he's dumb as hell) and fold everything else to how you played.

Yeah, I should've raised bigger on the flop. $6 maybe? Or $8? In this case, the pot was big enough that I was satisfied to take it down there (again-- am I losing value in these situations?) or gambool to double up and suck out on the river. If he wants to be stupid and hang around with a naked Ad/Kd, fine-- he's just going to have to pay.

I used to think like you do (I don't want him to fold so I'll bet a little less) but you're really shooting yourself in the foot in the long run, trust me. About the reraise.. after his bet the pot is $5.85, that is the important part. So I'd go for around $6-$7 here.

Yeah, the bad beats have a way of screwing with my head. I get a good hand and I just don't want to get sucked out on (but end up losing big when I've been outflopped and slowplayed). Bet 2/3 pot but proceed with caution with a club/queen/seven on the river or if he wakes up with a strong bet?

It is something I have noticed in my game, and I see it in other people I play with, but these sorts of bets really end up costing you a lot. If you look at the board and consider possible handranges, then ask yourself "who will call this raise?".. if it's only hands that beat you, then it's a major money leak thing to do. I feel keeping this in mind and knowing when to pot control or build a pot really helped me to minimize leaking money.

I bet $3 on the turn and he folded. I should just be happy to net $3 on this hand anyway. In the past I'd have open limped and probably just have netted the blinds.

Yeah, it's not cuz he folded that you did anything wrong, that's bad thinking. Next time you'll be slowplaying it and give him odds to draw on you, which comes from thinking you made a mistake here. (ok, the minraise was not too good, but in general if your opp doesn't pay up when you have a hand.. this happens.. a lot)

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

your post flop play needs a lot of work.

Ach! The slings and arrows of criticism! I cannot take it, sir!

Just kidding. And I appreciate your (and everyone else's) comments. My thinking's been out of whack especially lately and I needed some commentary on my reasoning because I know it's way off.

Don't pot commit yourself with no reason to do so.

what's the point of the flop raise in hand 1? The pot is $6 when it gets to you and you raise it by only $3. Pump it to at least $7.

Is there a rule of thumb here? Like 3.5x a raise? Just wondering where you derive your raise sizes.

why an over the pot bet on the turn? "serving notice that we're playing for stacks/I like my hand/don't donk bet me on a draw in the future when I've raised preflop/I know you're on a draw and you've got nothing now)" doesn't do you any good. You don't want him to fold a draw. You don't want to lose all your chips if he has a made hand. On this hand as played I'd bet $10. If he flat calls a raise on the flop and check raises me substantially on the turn I'm giving him credit for a hand here... i'm just troubled by the fact he could have a lower set. Still I'd bet $10 and go from there... get some more information and invite a chase.

If he CR's the turn, do you just go all in here?

Hand 2 is just bad. half pot or check behind on the turn is reasonable.

If you 1/2 pot the turn, do you just check behind on a blank river?

Hand 3 isn't terrible. Leading out with a set is fine here. Just make a normal looking cont bet... $1.50 or something.

Had I been at the table for a while I would have. Just being new at the table here I thought I'd get too much credit for a usual c-bet and he'd fold, especially if he had no A.

If someone raises pre flop to me and then makes a min bet on the flop then alarm bells are ringing in my head. In villain's shoes I'd probably call with anything and raise with something strong. As played you might as well just call the flop raise and check it to him on the turn and raise it then. As played, you might as well lead the turn for something reasonable like $4.

hope this helps you.

It does!

Ok ill give it a go without reading the other replies first.

Originally Posted by drtofu66

HAND 1:


And if the Ad instead of Ac falls on the turn-- what do you do?

cry. I hope for a cheap showdown and fold if its too expensive


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($3.45)
BB ($44.74)
UTG ($30.75)
UTG+1 ($5.19)
MP1 ($11.75)
MP2 ($104.70)
MP3 ($29.74)
Hero ($33.52)
Button ($6.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 2 folds, BB calls $1, MP2 calls $1.


Flop: ($3.85) 7, 8, J (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero raises to $5, BB folds, MP2 calls $3.

Raising just for information sucks. In this case you are raising for value since there are alot of hands that will call. That means you need to raise bigger so he has bad odds to call. If he reraises your big raise you can start to think he might have you beat but right now you shouldnt be too worried.

Turn: ($13.85) A (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $15

That bet is too big. I can understand why you want to take down the pot now, but in this case you are pretty sure where you stand so you may as well get some value from it. I probably make it about $8. If he calls and the river is a diamond and he bets it you can be pretty sure you are behind and make a correct fold (or check behind). If the river is a diamond that pairs the board you get a BIG bet on the river from a high flush. If the river is a blank then you can evaluate and small value bet or just check behind depending on what he does.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($20.95)
CO ($3.70)
Button ($42.29)
SB ($30.85)
BB ($5.94)
UTG ($43.58)
UTG+1 ($108.20)
UTG+2 ($30.09)
Hero ($30.82)
MP2 ($6.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.

Flop: ($2.85) 2, 8, 9 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Turn: ($6.85) J (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $7

Dont overbet there. If you arent sure where you are then try and keep the pot small. Play big hands in big pots and small hands in small pots. If you make solid 2/3 pot bets you will be called down by the J and you wont lose as much to a better hand. Overbet and you win the most/ lose the least. I make it $4.50 or so on the turn and maybe half pot river.

MP2 ($21.30)
MP3 ($4.05)
CO ($37.64)
Button ($29.25)
SB ($7.59)
BB ($43.13)
UTG ($118.15)
UTG+1 ($29.89)
Hero ($26.62)
MP1 ($7)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3, 3. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, CO calls $1, 3 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) A, 3, J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $2.25, CO calls $1.25.

Make a proper flop cbet and get it allin if he wants.

Turn: ($6.85) 6 (2 players)
Hero ??