Some discussion flops for AQ

You are on the button w/ and raise pre-flop and get 1 caller.

Flop #1


Flop #2


Flop #3


Flop #4


Flop #5


Villain leads w/ a pot sized bet. What is your play and WHY? Assume ~100BB stacks and villain is a random opponent.

Do we have a read on the villian? Alot would depend on that

Originally Posted by Jay67s

Do we have a read on the villian? Alot would depend on that

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Assume ~100BB stacks and villain is a random opponent.

Random as in you don't know anything about them.

1. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and playing cautiously on the turn after a call.

Hero has a very strong, but vulnerable hand here. Basically we're only worried about AA-QQ and a rogue 8. This is where reads come into play, but you said "random player" so I will interpret that for these purposes ot be "average player." Average player reraises preflop with AA-KK. QQ is unlikely for obvious reasons, so we are really only worried about a hand like 89s or A8. Whenever someone bets into me after I raised preflop on a flop like this, I generally get a little suspicious. Usually they bet like that because its unlikely I hit this board. But they could be trapping me with an 8. They could also be doing this with JT or QJ. Since its hard to know where you are at in this situation, I like to raise and find out while the pot is small.

2. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and continuing to value bet on the turn if checked to, or call another bet on the turn if bet into. The draw increases villains range to more hand that I beat.

Same as above, except you get more value because a FD will typically call you down at least to the turn.

3. I fold here. I don't care for messing with second pair on a K high flop OOP too much.

4. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

5. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

I think this post has the best view:replies ratio ever. Wheee!
Edit: The dream is over

Originally Posted by Renton

1. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and playing cautiously on the turn after a call.

2. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and continuing to value bet on the turn if checked to, or call another bet on the turn if bet into. The draw increases villains range to more hand that I beat.

3. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

4. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

Care to tell why you raise flops 1 & 2 Renton? Also, what about #5?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Renton

1. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and playing cautiously on the turn after a call.

2. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and continuing to value bet on the turn if checked to, or call another bet on the turn if bet into. The draw increases villains range to more hand that I beat.

3. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

4. 80% fold, 20% call depending on read.

Care to tell why you raise flops 1 & 2 Renton? Also, what about #5?

oops didn't see 5. I will edit the original post.

In general I agree w/Renton...reraise the first two flops to see where you're at. Flop 3 is about the worst possible and much too dangerous to mess with - flush, 2pr, straight, trips are all very possible. Flop 4 is mostly a fold but I might call if the guy is very laggy and/or he's been stealing lots of pots or betting w/less than TP. Flop 5 is mostly a fold, you have to fold a non-A/Q turn anyway as he probably bets it.

Originally Posted by Renton

3. I fold here. I don't care for messing with second pair on a K high flop OOP too much.

Sorry to be nitpicky but flop 4 has the K and you are on the button in all examples.

Originally Posted by Renton

1. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and playing cautiously on the turn after a call.

Hero has a very strong, but vulnerable hand here. Basically we're only worried about AA-QQ and a rogue 8. This is where reads come into play, but you said "random player" so I will interpret that for these purposes ot be "average player." Average player reraises preflop with AA-KK. QQ is unlikely for obvious reasons, so we are really only worried about a hand like 89s or A8. Whenever someone bets into me after I raised preflop on a flop like this, I generally get a little suspicious. Usually they bet like that because its unlikely I hit this board. But they could be trapping me with an 8. They could also be doing this with JT or QJ. Since its hard to know where you are at in this situation, I like to raise and find out while the pot is small.

2. Raise 3x with the intention of folding to a push, and continuing to value bet on the turn if checked to, or call another bet on the turn if bet into. The draw increases villains range to more hand that I beat.

Same as above, except you get more value because a FD will typically call you down at least to the turn.

Originally Posted by Aces

reraise the first two flops to see where you're at.

It seems there are many fans of raising just to "see where you're at." I don't know how alone I am in this, but I do not consider this an acceptible reason for me to bet/raise. I think bets/raises should fall under bluffs, value bets/raises, and to give bad odds to draws. If there are any other reasons I'd appreciate if somebody would let me know. I think finding out where you stand is a great extra benefit from betting in these situations. So I guess I am wondering if raising is correct on flops 1 & 2. It's not a bluff. The bettor has already put in enough money to make drawing bad. And when you value bet/raise you are happy when called because you are very confident that you have the best hand correct? So would it be a raise for value in flops 1 & 2? I don't believe so since we would very much like to "see where we're at" and would become very cautious if called. Anyone else?

Did villian limp/call? Did he call from the blind?

I raise the first two, dump the rest most likely. I don't like random villians leading into me.

Originally Posted by sejje

Did villian limp/call? Did he call from the blind?

I raise the first two, dump the rest most likely. I don't like random villians leading into me.

I guess limp/call is the most likely line. Sejje, why do you raise the first 2?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

You are on the button w/ and raise pre-flop and get 1 caller.

Flop #1

I probably just call here. This is a WA/WB situation. Theres a pretty good chance he has JQ,TQ, JJ,TT etc... and I dont want him to fold when he has so few outs and he will hopefully bet the turn again. We have position so if he doesnt bet the turn we can do it for him.
He could also have an 8, or an overpair that I dont want to pay off and if he has KK we might even spike the A.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop #2

I reraise this because of the 2 suits. I want to know where I am and I dont want to give him cheap cards if he has the flush draw.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop #3

Probably just fold. So many hands that beat us and even if we are ahead we probably wont be for long. We also have no completely clean outs.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop #4

Probably just fold. Not worth messing about with middle pair against an unknown. There is a small chance id call and see what he does on the turn. If he checks to me on the turn I probably give him the free card. If he bets out I probably just fold.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop #5

Fold. There arent any draws he could be semibluffing so he probably has A8, 99-JJ or something and will get away from it easily if we hit our outs (that we dont have odds to draw for). He might even have a set already.

call
call
fold/call
fold/call
RAISE

Originally Posted by gabe

RAISE

oooooh controversial.

I can see why youd do this with a read, but arent you worried about getting called down by the 8 or an overpair against an unknown? Do you fire again if he calls and checks the turn? What about if he calls and bets out the turn on a blank?

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by gabe

RAISE

oooooh controversial.

I can see why youd do this with a read, but arent you worried about getting called down by the 8 or an overpair against an unknown? Do you fire again if he calls and checks the turn? What about if he calls and bets out the turn on a blank?

without a specific read, i assume an unknown player that does this is weak. its like my read on the unknowns.

i fire turn depending on what comes up, i would probably fire on any broadway card. also, if i check turn then he checks river i find myself pushing alot.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop #2

I reraise this because of the 2 suits. I want to know where I am and I dont want to give him cheap cards if he has the flush draw.

I don't think they would be "cheap" cards. There would be the same amount of money in the pot if you called as there would be if villain checked and called your pot sized bet.

Originally Posted by gabe

call
call
fold/call
fold/call
RAISE

Gabe, can you explain why for the first 4?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

I don't think they would be "cheap" cards. There would be the same amount of money in the pot if you called as there would be if villain checked and called your pot sized bet.

yea i agree. too many people think they have to raise pot size bets when there are draws because they dont want to give the person odds, but the fact is they aren't really getting odds with their bet when they dont have folding equity.

I think a semibluff is quite likely there and another spade could make you lay down the best hand even if he doesnt have it. Having said that, and rethinking, if you are just cold calling he is probably scared to bet when the spade comes as it looks like you may have been drawing (AKs?), and he probably bets out again with alot of worse hands to protect from the flush himself.... I think I now agree with the call. lol.

I'll take the beginners approach (and assume a full ten person table).

1) Call, I feel about 75% sure we have the best hand and are likely up against a low pp or weaker Q. Call instead of raise b/c this kind of uncertainty, I'd rather have a smaller pot. The opponent has to have in the back of his mind that you may have flopped a full house.

2) Call, with the extra caution for an another spade. (Same reasoning as in #1, with Ax spades as another possibility).

In 1 and 2 I'd be very leery of a K/J/T hitting and him having a better 2 pair.

3) Fold. At worst opponent has OESD with a lower pair.

4) Call/Fold really seems like an OESD as a better hand (2 pair) would bet less as would 77. I feel like I'm slightly ahead here, but it's precarious. Considering I'dhave to fold to many cards on the turn/river, I'd change it to fold.

5) Fold. We could be drawing dead (trips) or near dead (need a Q). These aren't the types of pots I like to invest in. While our opponent may/should put us on a high PP this would seem to be the type of line that would cause us to get destacked against a set.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by gabe

call
call
fold/call
fold/call
RAISE

Gabe, can you explain why for the first 4?

i think i should have listed the first two as call/raise. i do both depending on what i think of the villian. if i think they are really bad, i would raise. if they are tricky or stupid-aggressive, i just call.

the next two i am not ahead of much, but i just like dont folding after i raise preflop especially when i hit a pair. if i respect the opponent i usually fold both though, against bad players i call and reevaluate.

1 & 2 - I often smooth call the flop with the intention of waiting until the turn to raise. Both flops are excellent for your hand and their is usually not much danger taking a card off given the action and your position.

3 - Call/Raise

4- Call/Fold

5 - Fold/Raise

Without knowing position of the preflop limp/caller or any reads or the size of my raise or how many were in but folded to the riase Ill give my "standard" response to these situations. Havent looked at the other responses yet, so Ill see how mine compare.

Assuming a 10xBB pot?

1/2: I dont think Im going to play either of these hands very differently. Both I would reraise, probably to 25BB [2.5x initial psb]. If I made a strong raise preflop then there are only 4 hands Im really worried about on this board AA, KK, QQ, and 88. Im ahead of all other PP, and have outs against KK and AA. QQ and 88 are both very unlikely, a random opponent is not going to lead with a PSB with a full house or quads, both hads are also unlikely as there is only 1 combination of them each as we have 2 8s on the board and a pair of queens. Also, that same logic applies for AA and KK, I cannot imagine a random opponent is betting a hand like that this strong. Hand #2 is different for one reason, the flush draw, but that doesnt so much affect our decision. With a strong hand OOP and a flush draw on the board, I typically bet 2/3-PSB to discourage the draw, on this board a PSB looks more like a good hand trying to protect against the flush. There is a good chance that they'd fold to the reraise, and a good chance that if they dont our hand is still better, Id call a push in both hands.

3: With a strong hand on a suited board I stick in a PSB, almost never less, this again seems like a scared bet. However, Im unsure of how I would play this. I think against a random opponent they more often than not want to take it down right here, if they werent scared of the flush then they wouldnt have bet so large, Id either raise trying to take it down here, or call and try to take it down on a scare card on the turn or river. I think both plays have their benefits.

4: Fold. Had villain checked, I would have lead with a 2/3-PSB here, but Im not calling one with MPTK, and Im not raising without a very solid read.

5: Fold. Again, Id lead if checked to, but Im not calling a PSB with only two overs, which may not even be good. And as in #5, Im not raising without a solid read on villain.

4/5: We very well could have the best hand, but without a specific read, it isnt worth it to get involved on what could also very easily not be the best hand. Folding here and waiting for another spot to get your money in as a big favorite is probably the better play.


Again, a big thing in this is that this is an unknown opponent. If we had even a few hundred hands on the opponent we could much easier make this decision, but against an unknown I am not going to assume they are an above average player. Missing the complete preflop action also hurts a little.

Originally Posted by gabe

without a specific read, i assume an unknown player that does this is weak. its like my read on the unknowns.

i fire turn depending on what comes up, i would probably fire on any broadway card. also, if i check turn then he checks river i find myself pushing alot.

I understand your thinking here, but in a cash game is it worth it to try to pick off a PSB with only two overcards? He could easily have nothing, but he could very easily have you beat, or atleast discount some of your outs if he does call. Up until this point, you havent invested much, but to get a chance to take down this bet you have to risk a lot more. If he pushes, you are folding, if a scare card comes and he continues his hard betting, you are folding, and if he has you beat already you again lose money. The only way you will win here is if villain is doing this with air and folds and doesnt have the balls to 3 bet with air, I dont think Im that confident against a random opponent to build a big pot with overcards.

Flop #1


RAISE 2.5 times the bet... clearly he had a pocket pair before the flop and he's assuming i have A K or A J... i don't think he'd trap with A 8 on the flop... he'd check it and see if i hit and check raise me and make a big ass bet on the turn... i'd put him on mid pair which of course you clearly beat him... and of course fold to a push...


Flop #2

RAISE 2.5 times the bet... i wouldn't necesseraly put him on clubs... defenitely put him on a Q or less... if i've seen him donk with betting the flush draw before i'd push at him... again maybe mid pocket pair... same play as above only being weary of the club draw he might be donking with.... defenitely fold to a push...


Flop #3


show and muck... after kicking the cat... got ouflopped... he could have nearly anything to beat me at this point... spades... pocket tens or jacks... he's clearly upset the board has three spades... his hand must be highly vulnarable to a spade draw... he either already has a low flush or he flopped 2 pair or trips either situation you're clearly beat


Flop #4


FOLD! if you gotta ask why well... you can sit at my table...


Flop #5


FOLD... you have 2 overs or maybe worse maybe you got out donked by A 8... and you have three live cards... just whine and throw it away... who cares if he has 7 7 or 9 9 or 10 10... you were losing preflop so now you're behind so it's only fair...

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I understand your thinking here, but in a cash game is it worth it to try to pick off a PSB with only two overcards? He could easily have nothing, but he could very easily have you beat, or atleast discount some of your outs if he does call. Up until this point, you havent invested much, but to get a chance to take down this bet you have to risk a lot more. If he pushes, you are folding, if a scare card comes and he continues his hard betting, you are folding, and if he has you beat already you again lose money. The only way you will win here is if villain is doing this with air and folds and doesnt have the balls to 3 bet with air, I dont think Im that confident against a random opponent to build a big pot with overcards.

from experience, i think its +EV. most average thinking players lead with a strong hand, but when they start doing that you know they are tricky.

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

Flop #1


RAISE 2.5 times the bet... clearly he had a pocket pair before the flop and he's assuming i have A K or A J... i don't think he'd trap with A 8 on the flop... he'd check it and see if i hit and check raise me and make a big ass bet on the turn... i'd put him on mid pair which of course you clearly beat him... and of course fold to a push...


Flop #2

RAISE 2.5 times the bet... i wouldn't necesseraly put him on clubs... defenitely put him on a Q or less... if i've seen him donk with betting the flush draw before i'd push at him... again maybe mid pocket pair... same play as above only being weary of the club draw he might be donking with.... defenitely fold to a push...

#1-If you are so sure that he has a pocket pair worse than QQ and not 88 then why are you raising? He is on 2 outs and will not put any more $ in the pot if you raise.

#2-If you push over that bet you will probably only be called by a better hand.

people,
just because you think you have the best hand people doesn't mean you should always be betting and raising

Originally Posted by gabe

people,
just because you think you have the best hand people doesn't mean you should always be betting and raising

Can I get an amen?

amen

amen.

I think alot of you guys missed out on the WA/WB factor with some of those hands. Raising is the single best way to win the least and lose the most (in those first 2 hands).

Originally Posted by Pelion

amen.

I think WA/WB alot of you guys missed out on the WA/WB factor with some of those hands. Raising is the single best way to win the least and lose the most.

For those who don't know WA/WB = way ahead/way behind.

call,call,call,raise,raise

#4 is a raise if you are in position. can you guys see why?

#5 is also a raise for the free card on the turn and for the chance that the opponent may fold on the flop.

also LOL at fold for #3.

you are in position, what are you guys afriad of here? if he fires again on turn you may want to think about folding. On flop? NO way!

bigboy = post whore

sorry sir =)

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

sorry sir =)

lol no need. it's funny
Edit: I think my avatar puts off a serious aura. That stupid Hellmuth.

Reraise #1 and #2. You are more than likely ahead. Reraise #3 for information. If they push then get out. Fold #4 and call #5 if the player is aggro.

Originally Posted by Lodogg

Reraise #1 and #2. You are more than likely ahead. Reraise #3 for information. If they push then get out. Fold #4 and call #5 if the player is aggro.

On 1 & 2, what are you hoping to accomplish with your raise? On 3 do you think worse hands will call your raise?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Lodogg

Reraise #1 and #2. You are more than likely ahead. Reraise #3 for information. If they push then get out. Fold #4 and call #5 if the player is aggro.

On 1 & 2, what are you hoping to accomplish with your raise? On 3 do you think worse hands will call your raise?

Yes, depending on villain, hands like QJ/QT/JJ/TT might call in hand 1 and a flush draw will probably call in hand 2. Basically I raise here for value and to see how villain responds to it. If you simply call the raise and get to the turn you still have no clue if villain has trips. Raising the flop against the average player will help you figure that out. If he flat calls and bets out the turn, he probably has trips. If he flat calls and checks the turn, he probably has a weak Q or a draw, at which point you can value bet.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

Flop #1


RAISE 2.5 times the bet... clearly he had a pocket pair before the flop and he's assuming i have A K or A J... i don't think he'd trap with A 8 on the flop... he'd check it and see if i hit and check raise me and make a big ass bet on the turn... i'd put him on mid pair which of course you clearly beat him... and of course fold to a push...


Flop #2

RAISE 2.5 times the bet... i wouldn't necesseraly put him on clubs... defenitely put him on a Q or less... if i've seen him donk with betting the flush draw before i'd push at him... again maybe mid pocket pair... same play as above only being weary of the club draw he might be donking with.... defenitely fold to a push...

#1-If you are so sure that he has a pocket pair worse than QQ and not 88 then why are you raising? He is on 2 outs and will not put any more $ in the pot if you raise.

#2-If you push over that bet you will probably only be called by a better hand.

1. if i call and he catches on the turn it will be my own fault for not raising the flop... if i raise and he calls and catches will at least he made a bad play and i can add another donk to my list... not only could he have mid pair but also maybe semi bluffing an gut shot handed draw since many will call a raise with 10 9 suited...

2. the purpose of the push is to take the pot down immediately with the best hand... if i get called it's because i made a bad read and fucked up of course so yeah you're right if i do get called it's cause they're either stupid and i'm gonna get paid off or i got outplayed by AA or KK or donked/played by A 8... if this is a bad play please advice...

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Lodogg

Reraise #1 and #2. You are more than likely ahead. Reraise #3 for information. If they push then get out. Fold #4 and call #5 if the player is aggro.

On 1 & 2, what are you hoping to accomplish with your raise? On 3 do you think worse hands will call your raise?

Yes, depending on villain, hands like QJ/QT/JJ/TT might call in hand 1 and a flush draw will probably call in hand 2. Basically I raise here for value and to see how villain responds to it. If you simply call the raise and get to the turn you still have no clue if villain has trips. Raising the flop against the average player will help you figure that out. If he flat calls and bets out the turn, he probably has trips. If he flat calls and checks the turn, he probably has a weak Q or a draw, at which point you can value bet.

Plus I like to be in control of the hand ehich gives me power over pot size on 4th and 5th street. I try to make it a habit of raising or folding on the flop almost always. Another reason for this is that you get valuable info that might save you a lot of money on 4th and 5th street. For instance in example #1 if I reraise and someone pushed hard back at me, I am gone. Didn't lose much in that situation. But if I called it down then are we going to call the turn and river as well and pay this guy off a lot more?

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

1. if i call and he catches on the turn it will be my own fault for not raising the flop... if i raise and he calls and catches will at least he made a bad play and i can add another donk to my list... not only could he have mid pair but also maybe semi bluffing an gut shot handed draw since many will call a raise with 10 9 suited...

Villain led into you with a pot sized bet. If he has a smaller pocket pair or a gutshot, he has already put enough $ to make drawing a mistake. The same amount of $ is in the pot if you just call as there would've been had villain checked to you and called a pot sized bet.

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

2. the purpose of the push is to take the pot down immediately with the best hand... if i get called it's because i made a bad read and fucked up of course so yeah you're right if i do get called it's cause they're either stupid and i'm gonna get paid off or i got outplayed by AA or KK or donked/played by A 8... if this is a bad play please advice...

Usually you shouldn't be risking your entire stack like this w/o a good read like "villain never bets trips ever and always re-raises AA-KK preflop." The less you are all-in when you are unsure of where you're at the better. Also, as a general rule you shouldn't be betting/raising when you will only fold much weaker hands and only get calls from much stronger hands. I think flop #1 is a clear way ahead/way behind situation.

hellmuth is right here. wait to see what happens on the turn in 1 and 2. you are in position anyway.

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

Flop #4


FOLD! if you gotta ask why well... you can sit at my table...

Best quote on this thread!!!!!!!