solid poker with large stack

I read this strategy from JJ's "stalking good players for 10 days"

where I came across the idea

people will think you are making a move on them if you have a big

stack, well at least more than usual and your allin will get called by

TPPK or near it. so I just go ai everytime i set/2 pair and win pot

tell me how this strategy goes for you guys

I really try to avoid going all in unless you are protecting you hand, which sometimes backfires because gamblers will call anyway with a draw. It is also correct that some people will think you are making a move and call you when you have the goods. I would go AI only with a set or top 2 pair AND the board was not showing 2 to a flush or paired. Watch out for those boards that have 2 suited cards because people absolutely love to chace the flush at almost any price.

I used to be of that school of thought that someone was buying the pot. 9 times out of 10 they are not. So I think there is some truth to that.

If I flopped a set with a 2 flush on the board I would go all in every single time if I thought I'd get called, the more the merrier too...

Originally Posted by SteveO

I really try to avoid going all in unless you are protecting you hand, which sometimes backfires because gamblers will call anyway with a draw. It is also correct that some people will think you are making a move and call you when you have the goods. I would go AI only with a set or top 2 pair AND the board was not showing 2 to a flush or paired. Watch out for those boards that have 2 suited cards because people absolutely love to chace the flush at almost any price.

I used to be of that school of thought that someone was buying the pot. 9 times out of 10 they are not. So I think there is some truth to that.

Think about what you are saying. You are hurting your earn rate if you play this way.

yeah I no longer go ai to protect hand, because straight/ flush drawers

really do me good when they hit their 35%/31%

Yet another one. You want those guys calling, guys. That's how you make money in the long run.

Originally Posted by michael1123

Yet another one. You want those guys calling, guys. That's how you make money in the long run.

If the pot has some meat, I don't find folding out someone with ~30% pot equity.

I'm talking about putting my whole BIG stack at risk. I will not risk entire stack when 2 to flush is on board even with my set. I will make a pot size bet to make it incorrect for him to draw but I will not put entire stack out there. That's how I play and I'm sticking to it.

Originally Posted by SteveO

I'm talking about putting my whole BIG stack at risk. I will not risk entire stack when 2 to flush is on board even with my set. I will make a pot size bet to make it incorrect for him to draw but I will not put entire stack out there. That's how I play and I'm sticking to it.

I'm not much of a NL player but I think you have to overbet the pot here, and then have the discipline to fold your set if you get called and the scare card comes and he bets.

Originally Posted by SteveO

I'm talking about putting my whole BIG stack at risk. I will not risk entire stack when 2 to flush is on board even with my set. I will make a pot size bet to make it incorrect for him to draw but I will not put entire stack out there. That's how I play and I'm sticking to it.

What do you do when he calls and the third card of the suit appears on the turn? Do you lay down your set to any bet? Check and call? Lead into the possible flush?

Not being critical, just curious.

Bet 1/2 pot and/or check it down (depends on opponent). If I'm raised I lay it down.

I will lead into flush to see where I'm at. He may have TPTK and the flush is just as much a scare card for him, my set has him beat and I can still make a full house if he does have the flush and only calls giving me a free look at river. If the flush comes on the turn and he calls my 1/2 pot bet, I will check the river.

A smart player will pull another 1/2 pot bet out of me by slowplaying the flush and making a small bet on the river that I have to call. However, most opponents will give it away and go all in, in which case I fold.

But part of being a winning NL ring player is protecting you big stack and not putting it all at risk when it is not necessary. Phil Helmuth has a point. If you have a set and a rainbow flop you can go AI without a thought or slow play depending on the action.

Originally Posted by SteveO

A smart player will pull another 1/2 pot bet out of me by slowplaying the flush and making a small bet on the river that I have to call. However, most opponents will give it away and go all in, in which case I fold.

Interesting viewpoint. How do you know that pushing means your opponent has the goods?

If you always lay your hand down to a push when the flush (apparently) completes after leading with a 1/2 pot bet, what range of hands can an opponent play against you with pot odds on the flop? Let's assume that your pot sized bet gives away your fear of the flush and that he knows you will lay your hand down.

I see what you're saying Moe, but you have to figure that if a guy calls a pot size (or higher) bet on a flop with 2 suited cards, it is very likely that he is chasing a flush. Especially if it is a player you have already identified as a card chaser.

If the guy comes over top of me after the scare card comes out, I don't have a problem with laying my hand down. If the guy was bluffing me with top pair or 2nd best pair, then I tip my hat to him.

Is this a leak in my game?

I guess in theory (and from an EV standpoint), you should make as large a bet as he will call, assuming that you are not giving him pot odds. If he folds, that's okay too.

I think always giving your opponent credit for the flush is a leak unless several people saw the flop. You need to call down occasionally to discourage the attentive players from bluffing you. Admittedly, this is probably not a major concern at mant Party $25 NL tables

Anyway, if it's not a leak, it's fuzzy thinking. If you say you won't push because you're afraid he'll call, then he'll certainly call a pot-sized bet. If you're going to lay your hand down if the flush completes, then you're willing to lose if it hits, regardless of whether he's got the goods. This effectively gives him more outs. If your goal is to lose the least when the flush draw hits, you should check. If your goal is to win the most, then you should bet as much as he will call.

Bottom line - the reason you bet the pot rather than pushing is that you *want* the flush draw to call, not because you are *afraid* he'll call.

I just honestly don't think like this (people not pushing all in with a set because they'll afraid a flush draw will call them). I honestly don't push because I'm afraid they won't call me.

The original question was whether to push AI. The answer is that I do not. I think that you make a nice profit with the pot size bet if the dude is a chaser without risking your "BIG" stack. At the same time you are giving him the incorrect odds to chase. I'm not saying I fold up the tent and go home every time a flush is on the board. You make money and minimize risk to your entire stack. Also, we are talking about a ring game. In a tournament, I'm AI to put the chaser to a tough decision. If he misses he's out. At a ring came, some of these idiots will call off $30 on a 4 flush and just reload. Your AI bet somehow encourages them to take that risk and make the incorrect call. However, a $6-10 pot sized bet seems to make them go away.

As noted above, if he has the balls to bluff at the flush, good for him. I don't see that happen too often.

I am also noticing that PP 10 person tables have tightend up quite a bit.

Final thought (wish I had hand history!)...This was just yesterday:
10 person table $25NL. I'm in EP. Dealt to me 22. I limp. Couple more limpers after me. Gets to CO and he raised $3, BB called. 4 callers including me. Flop comes Ad 2d K?. I'm AI. 3 callers. OH NO! Turn and River were blank and I won $100.

In the above, I had only $24 stack not a big stack.

I'm going to side with Stevo on the point that I think its better to make a Potsize bet on the flop, rather than all-in if you want to protect your stack.

A PSB still gives them incorrect odds to call but you can at least get away from your hand if you put them on a flush draw and it hits and they go nuts. I'd deff push on the turn though with a blank as this time you are an even bigger favourite and would love a call.

If you push all in they will deff see both cards if called and double there chances to outdraw you. If they don't call then you have just scared off customers while being the big fav. If I knew they would call and I also knew they were on a FD I would still bet the pot push the turn with a blank. I'm not sure which would prove more EV.

If you're stack wasn't big enough to make a turn bet that was bigger then the PSB on the flop I'd push.

I'm not saying either way is right but I think a PSB on the flop can be an effective strat Vs PAL.

I think this is the tourney approach but I can see why it would work well in a ring game too. In a ring game you have to build a stack so you do have motivation to not lose it all in a +EV situation if you can take a slightly lower +EV situation which has a lower risk of loseing your stack.

Hope this makes sense, I havn't proof read it.

You have to make some assumptions to determine which approach is higher EV.

If he will always call any bet on the turn, it would be higher EV to make a smaller bet on the river.

If he will call a push on the flop but always fold on the turn to a blank after calling a pot-sized bet on the flop, I think it's higher EV to push.

Maybe I'll work out some simplified calculations to show what I mean.

Really, I'm not quibbling over whether SteveO's approach of betting the pot into a two toned board is a correct play. I think it is unless you know your opponent will call an even bigger bet.

I just object to the notion that having a flush chaser call your all in is a bad thing, and the implication that it is okay to push with your set on a rainbow flop but not on a two tone flop. In fact, I believe it is *less* correct to push with a set on an uncoordinated board than it is on a two tone board from a theoretical standpoint.

I believe that fear of the chaser completing his draw is the single most damaging line of thinking for low limit casual players. I don't think it is enough to know the correct play, either. I think it is critical to know *why* we make the plays we do, and I think it benefits all areas of our play to achieve this fundamental understanding.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Maybe I'll work out some simplified calculations to show what I mean.

I was thinking the same but you would also have to factor in the times you bet the pot and are bluffed out by the flush card and the times the flush card hits but you hit a FH yada yada.

I'd go with what you said about whether you know that they will call the all-in on the turn or not is the best EV. It also depends on how big your stack is and how bothered you are about loseing it. If you have tripled your buy in and play better as a big stack I can understand the pot bet even if you knew the push would be called, unless of course you have the person covered.

There's probably too many variables do prove which way is superior to the other, I think the true answer is the same as most poker questions "It depends"

I agree. The most +EV play is betting whatever the flush draw chaser will call. If he'll call AI, then go AI. You've got the odds in your favor. You always want as much of your and their money in there when YOU'VE got the best of it. In the long run, it's +EV.

I'd like to get back to the whole "when the scare card comes down on the turn" scenario. I'm like TheNatural, in that I HATE paying off chasers. When that flush gets made on the turn, if you bet into them on the turn (and possibly value bet the river) you are paying them off for calling your bet on the flop. Essentially, they were right to chase the flush to the turn because of the implied odds against your stack (and not just the pot). I sometimes throw out a feeler bet of 1/2 pot size on the turn, sometimes not. I am completely through with this hand if it gets called, with a few exceptions of course.

HOWEVER, I handle this situation differently if I'm heads up against somebody and I raised PRE-flop. The odds of them having suited cards should be much less (although there are idiots who will call pre-flop raises with 56s). Basically, if they are suited in this situation it's by pure chance most of the time (like AKs or AQs). I won't fear the flush anywhere nearly as much when there is SIGNIFICANT pre-flop action (like a 4xBB or greater raise).

In this situation i think either option has its strong points especially if you turn top set...

with top set i would be happy makin a pot bet and if it dosnt come go all in on the turn.

also, if you go all in on the flop... most of the time you will push those flush draws out and win a small pot. Good. But like some people have stated, some gamblers will still call with just their flush draw. In this situation if he calls the all in, 2/3 of the tiem he wont run you down and you will win a monster. But during that 1/3 when he does, you still have about a 20-25% chance of filling up. So technically you would only be losing that monster hand 75% of 33% or 24.5% of the time. i would take a 75% chance to win a monster versus a 25% chance to loose any and every time.

However i do realize that sometimes you jsut cant get yourself to go all in bc you hate to see them fold and you win a small pot with your set.

Just a note, I do understand being more worried about them calling your all in in a tourney, and especially rather deep into a MTT (and extremely especially if you're nearing a big pay increase, or just about to enter the money).

Although in those cases, I think the all in on the flop is more likely to scare them out than a pot size bet.

But in any case, the risk is greater there, especially if you're going up against a bigger stack.

In a ring game, it just doesn't make sense, as long as you aren't playing in a limit that your bankroll can't support. Being the huge favorite to double your stack (if you're up against an equal sized stack), you should want to get all of both of your chips into the pot. If you lose it, sure it sucks, but you'll win it 3 out of 4 times, and it shouldn't be the end of the world if you lose your stack either, as long as you're playing within your bankroll.

Yeah, good point. I'm not an expert on MTT strategy, but I understand that you need to think long and hard before risking your entire stack, even if you have good odds to win the hand.

I don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but doesn't position play a HUGE role in this decision (and practically every decision we make as poker players?)

Specifically, I think how much you bet depends on whether you're first or last to act in the hand. If you're first, you've got to balance getting that pot big with the fear of underbetting and getting outdrawn, plus the potential to get reraised from a later position.

If you're last to act, it becomes a matter of more complete information, and the decision is easier.

I think correct play depends on where you are.

Originally Posted by michael1123

Just a note, I do understand being more worried about them calling your all in in a tourney, and especially rather deep into a MTT (and extremely especially if you're nearing a big pay increase, or just about to enter the money).

If I am late in a tournament (right before the payouts) and delt TT, and the flop comes up T63 with 2 to a suit. I'm pushing all-in. I don't care about my stack size, my opponents stack size or position. The only thing I want is to take the pot down right there. It's a lot less likely that you are going to run into a flush draw at this time because there is a lot of folding going on. However, I don't want to play with any risk and I am not looking for a caller. I have the nuts and I am looking to take it down. Safely getting to the money is more important than giving someone their pot odds or maximizing my profits. If fact, if I am raised pre-flop, I may be tempted to lay down TT when I'm at this point in the game.

Originally Posted by Manomanman

I don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but doesn't position play a HUGE role in this decision (and practically every decision we make as poker players?)

Position matters when you are gaining your information. But position does not matter when you are going all-in. After you have made the decision to push all-in or call all-in, the position doesn't matter, the stack size only slightly matters, the only thing that matters are the cards.

In general, I like the strategy of giving a chaser his odds while playing the same odds he will not catch and potentially taking down a bigger pot. But I would put this in ring game strategy rather than tournament strategy.

Sklansky talked about EV in his tournament book and it made so much sense. It will always be profitable to make a +EV decision in a ring game. But it will not always be profitable in a tournament. If you run into a 6 to 1 shot with a +EV, it will be profitable in the long run. But what are your chances of having this pop up in the same tournament 5 other times? Because you earn money on each tournament and cannot make up what you lost in one tournament by making extra in another, you should consider laying down hands where the odds are strongly against you, even if it has +EV.

With this situation we are talking about, you have about a 70% chance to win. However, the losses you will sustain when you lose this (the other 30% of the time) I think we be harsh and hurt your tournament a lot. It is safer to take away his pot odds and play the hand very strong.

I would play this hand safe in a tournament. But I think I would make that gamble in a ring game.

Originally Posted by Humphrind

If I am late in a tournament (right before the payouts) and delt TT, and the flop comes up T63 with 2 to a suit. I'm pushing all-in. I don't care about my stack size, my opponents stack size or position. The only thing I want is to take the pot down right there. It's a lot less likely that you are going to run into a flush draw at this time because there is a lot of folding going on. However, I don't want to play with any risk and I am not looking for a caller. I have the nuts and I am looking to take it down. Safely getting to the money is more important than giving someone their pot odds or maximizing my profits.

I agree, which is why I added, "Although in those cases, I think the all in on the flop is more likely to scare them out than a pot size bet."

I'm just saying that that's the only time where I understand the point many made in this thread of being scared to go all in and get called. I'd personally always go all in (unless my stack was gigantic) with a hand like that late in a tourney, and you won't get a flush draw calling you, unless they have a much much bigger stack than you and are a gambler.

By the way, Humph, your avatar cracks me up.

Originally Posted by michael1123

By the way, Humph, your avatar cracks me up.

My Meyers Briggs test says that I have the same personality as Cliff Clavin. This way he can be my guide. Cause he knows EVERYTHING!

First of all, all of these guys who've responded here to AllinLife's post are most likely much better hold'em players than i am, so let me note that i'm just speaking from my limited experience here.

In my opinion, i think it's a pretty good move to go all in when you flop a set. Or as StevO suggested, going all in even with top 2 pair without the board showing 2 to a flush will be profitable at least in the long run i would assume. I play trips differently in every situation because the board, position, raiser, caller, and limpers are all in different circumstances in every hand. Even with the board showing 2 to a flush, how could ever draw up the only way of playing trips? (not that anyone here said you could LOL) On rare occasitions i slowplay it and only end up with a small pot cause my opponent just does not have the hand to move in on me (or balls). Sometimes it's the complete opposite. As well as you might know your opponent, it's impossible to know what truly might have happened if you played your hand differently. Because of that (of course depending on your stack and your opposition's stack), assuming you are not risking a large stack you've been building for 3hrs, i don't suppouse going all in all the time would be such a bad idea.

I've folded trips only once eversince i started playing hold'em, and till this day i still don't know whether i made the right move or not. Obviously the one who took down the pot mucked his hand. I never kept record of wins and losses on my trips, but i think i can confidently say that it stood at least 7 out of 10 times i've played it.
By the way, most of the time i bet out big with my trips. By playing it aggressively, my disposition is, "if you keep drawing, i'm gonna make you pay big for it". Folding trips once left a real bad taste in my mouth, i rather play my trips hard and get beat by a draw made by the turn or river (by someone with balls) than to try to convince myself that it was the right fold.
Also, you hardly see any opposing player going all in with their flush. Even if i were playing aggressively up to turn or the river with my trips, where my opposition might have made his flush by then, the one's with the nut will usually bet a reasonable amount that the opposing players would most likely call. At least that seems to be the case with most players at PP.
You are drawing up to some point during the hand, and when you make your flush, the board will usually tell you that you are holding the nut. For most PP players (for the exceptions of the few i've stalked), when they have the nuts, they worry about scaring you away with big bets rather than worrying about going all in or not.
I've seen so often even with 3 to 4 suited cards on the board, one that kept calling my big raises were either ones with top two pairs or someone holding Poket Aces. You can't never put someone with a made flush or flush draw for certain, that is exactly why i always push myself to play trips aggressively and try not to deviate from that aggressive mode. All in all, when you are holding as powerful hand as a set, i think you lose out by giving the community cards too much credit.

On a personal note, i've been logging lots of hours lately playing 25NL 10handed hold'em at PP. I've been averaging profit of $15 an hour playing one hand and so far my trips have not been beat by any drawing hands. Probably luck played a big role though.
Between slowplaying your set, playing your set aggressively (big bets), and going all in with your set. If i had to pick one way to play it and play it that way all the time, i'd prefer playing a set making lots of big bets.
I apologize if i seem too ignorant to some of the more advanced players here.

But then again, one condition would force me to fold my trips. That is when two players are betting out crazy hoping that his or her flush is the nut flush. Sometimes the above situation is so obvious in a play that it's an easy fold, but i've just not been put in that spot yet with my trips.