so what is the range of a 23/3

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.95)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($2.77)
MP2 ($7.04)
CO ($5.14)
BTN ($5)
SB ($8.27)
kickass ($5)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 8 players) kickass is BB
4 folds, CO calls $0.05, 2 folds, kickass checks

Flop: ($0.12, 2 players)
kickass bets $0.10, CO calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.32, 2 players)
kickass bets $0.20, CO raises to $0.40, kickass calls $0.20

River: ($1.12, 2 players)
kickass bets $0.95, CO raises to $3.97, $3.02 to kickass ($3.5)?

what do you all think to this as a range.

22 66 TT 76 T7 maybe Ah7h if this is it i have 35.7% I dont know what I need to make this a profitable call (feel free to help me out chastise me or post a link to some spoon thread that will make me cry) if he has any overpairs in his range then its a snap call though if i add only AA I come out at 55%. he is 23/3 over 56 hands not seen any proper action from him.
add 89 super fast can i have some more money to get a raise in please call Im 70%.

lol at being results orientated

What? Never fold here.

i was looking at it and thinking i thought i put him on the straight... where is that in his assigned range...I've missed it out. I put it in and stoved it and burst out laughing. i'm a fucking idiot.
of course i shoved, of course i lost. why else would a fucking donk fish post this hand.

Originally Posted by kickass

i was looking at it and thinking i thought i put him on the straight... where is that in his assigned range...I've missed it out. I put it in and stoved it and burst out laughing. i'm a fucking idiot.
of course i shoved, of course i lost. why else would a fucking donk fish post this hand.

Well hopefully you've learned why you've played preflop and river pretty horribly. Wasn't a lost cause by any means.

Easy raise preflop. You have loads of FE both preflop and post flop with c-bets and position and a suited hand what else do you want. Such a +EV situation. He'll be wider than 20% vpip from this position I'd imagine he's prolly rediculously wide.

As played snapcall this ffs, look at all the worse value combos he can have (straights and underfulls)

Even if you give him 0 combos of 89 and 22 66 and offsuit better boats, which he may not have either, it's still a call. Folding here would be absurd. You need 33% equity here. Do: amount to call/(toal pot + amount to call) x 100.


Turn is probably not too bad, however, folding looks alright aswell. You have 4 outs and implied odds vs his hands that beat you but meh it's only 4 outs and there probably aren't too many worse hands in this guys range at this point if any at all.

I'd c/r the river all in. He's still betting for value; you can't be risking this passive tard just calling down with a stright or 66 etc when you lead.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Easy raise preflop.

what the fuck?

You're advocating raising 72s OOP against a station at 5NL?

I can only agree with you about pre I am not a very competent player by any means and I'm definitely not bluff raising/ bluff 3 betting often enough. like how does almost never sound. The river on the other hand i thought he would call with more than he would raise with cos he was really passive and gay so i wanted to make sure i got some value, is that dumb. trying to think of a time i've check raised the river.....nope don't think i have. Thank you for the advice.

Okay. You need to consider the range he gets to the river with. A passive guy like this almost never has marginal hands here like Tx or even 7x that check back the river, but call a bet. His range on the river is basically straights and better, therefore, he has no hand that's weak enough that he checks behind and will almost certainly be stationy vs a c.r. Since his range is like this (as defined by his turn line) he'll be bet/calling pretty much all of it, but not raising a lead by you with all of it. Therefore, c/r for value has by far the highest EV since you're going to have like 70%+ equity vs his straights, worst boats etc etc and these hands all bet/call the river.

Originally Posted by kickass

trying to think of a time i've check raised the river.....nope don't think i have.

Side Note to check raising rivers:
If you ever go for a check raise on the turn, but it gets checked back then go for check raise river instead. Anything villain will call with he will bet on river anyway. (mostly)

Originally Posted by Smith

Side Note to check raising rivers:
If you ever go for a check raise on the turn, but it gets checked back then go for check raise river instead. Anything villain will call with he will bet on river anyway. (mostly)

So villain defines his range as weak by checking back the turn and we want to go ahead and give him the chance to check back loads of it on the river aswell when it's so weak that he can hardly ever call a c/r anyway, but can often call a bet?

Although this is a rediculously vague thing to even be talking about, most villains are going to have a way higher turn bluf ffrequency than river bluff frequency with floats/draws etc, so we don't induce a whole load of bluffs by checking rivers when turns check through. Giving weak sd value hands the chance to check back again is pretty awful, especially at micros where betting ranges are way tighter than calling ranges.

You're gonna have to give a better explanation than this before throwing people unjustified groundless advice.

FWIW: I assume you mean we're trying to c/r the turn for value and not as a bluff.

Originally Posted by Carroters

You're gonna have to give a better explanation than this before throwing people unjustified groundless advice.

I see what you mean, and I was just throwing a side note that didn't pertain to this or a specific situation. Just thought I would give some more thoughts about check raising rivers based on OP comment of never doing it. So I'll give a short example. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got this from a reputable coach.

My interpretation:
OOP Against a good TAG who bet the flop (cbet), and you decide he will most likely bet the turn, so you get ready for a check raise for value on the turn. If he decides to check back the turn (for pot control) then go for the check raise on the river. Reason being he will most likely bet for thin value on the river or bluff river after hero shows two streets of weakness. He is more likely to bet the river then to call river bet.

The coach actually used the words then you "have to" check raise the river when explaining the concept. Maybe this doesn't hold any water for 5NL.

Originally Posted by Smith

I see what you mean, and I was just throwing a side note that didn't pertain to this or a specific situation. Just thought I would give some more thoughts about check raising rivers based on OP comment of never doing it. So I'll give a short example. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got this from a reputable coach.

My interpretation:
OOP Against a good TAG who bet the flop (cbet), and you decide he will most likely bet the turn, so you get ready for a check raise for value on the turn. If he decides to check back the turn (for pot control) then go for the check raise on the river. Reason being he will most likely bet for thin value on the river or bluff river after hero shows two streets of weakness. He is more likely to bet the river then to call river bet.

The coach actually used the words then you "have to" check raise the river when explaining the concept.

Playing against "a good reg" on whom you have reads that he has these tendencies, then sure this could apply, but this is very different from your first statement since that referred to "most" situations. People in this forum play micro stakes where good regs are very few and far between, hence betting frquencys are much lower, and thin value rarely exists, so throwing that out as a general statement when it only applys to specifc villain types is a little dangerous to readers.

turn is interesting, but seems to have been ignored
river is not even close. You beat 22/66/many 7x/JJ-AA/89, you lose 76/TT/T7.
All hands from both these lists make sense.
count the combos (don't stove it), good practise.

Oops thought this was b vs b lol. Yeah I can check here.

Even if he's fairly stationy this will always be a raise if we're b vs b since his range will be LOL wide and FE pre and post will be huge.

I should prolly read HHs properly though, apologies OP.

kinda feel glad bout that. horrified at the idea of bluffing here. check fold was the plan.

So often at 2NL-25NL when a turn checks through the river is likely to also due to low aggression frequencys and an inability to value bet thin coupled with an inability to fold to bets - so bet. This even applies in higher stakes and to a lot of bad regs that can't thin value bet. A read that someone can thin value bet is a rarity and should never be assumed as the norm.

Originally Posted by Carroters

So often at 2NL-25NL when a turn checks through the river is likely to also due to low aggression frequencys and an inability to value bet thin coupled with an inability to fold to bets - so bet. This even applies in higher stakes and to a lot of bad regs that can't thin value bet. A read that someone can thin value bet is a rarity and should never be assumed as the norm.

I actually find a pretty high bluffing and betting frequency on the river at 25NL, and is one of my favorite notes/stats. That's usually more aggressive fish though, and not regs that have a higher river aggression frequency than their turn frequencies. But enough about generalizations ITT I guess.

c/r seems good on river, but i think another option is overbet shove? On the river i think his calling range is pretty much the same if we c/r or shove, so we need to consider parts of his range that may bluff when checked to, and parts of his range that may check back instead of call. I can't really see him ever really bluffing here without like Ah6h or some weird hand like 8h5h, but then again i don't think his bluffing frequency is very high because lolloosepassive fish. im thinking that there are some hands that he may sometimes minraise turn with some AT or somehow gets there with an overpair and decides to check back river. You're def losing a lot of value by just potting river tho ;(