small/medium pps in the blinds

Easy to play against early/mid position raises, but how about against steels?

You can't really play for set value as villains range is so wide you only have a small chance of getting paid off. I'm not folding as I most likely have the best hand. Calling leaves you playing a flop that will more often than not have overs and against a very wide range that will very likely cbet with you having very little idea of villains hand. 3betting has always been my favoured move here but I often see players better than myself criticising this.

So what's peoples general thoughts?

i think that 22-77 are the most over-rated 36 combinations of cards when in the blinds facing a raise. i typically fold them unless i think there is a good chance i'll get to the flop multiway, preferably with a fish in the pot, and also preferably >100bb effectives. i see the logic for 3-betting them as a bluff out of the blinds (not profitable to flat, have some amount of post-flop value etc etc) but i prefer to just fold them and 3bet hands that will allow me to continue my aggression post-flop (suitedness and/or connectedness) more often. (obviously i also like to have blockers to villain's continuing ranges, which 22-77 don't)

But folding 7s seems horrific. I can understand folding 22-55 bit 66+ seems so nitty. Think I'm gonna do some database checking to see how I've performed with them so far.

imo, it mostly depends upon the abilities of the opponent. If the pf raiser is a supernit or a tough reg then I'd just let 'em steal, but if I think that I can outplay the villain post flop then sometimes I'll call their raise intending to take the pot on the flop or turn. If I've seen them fold to a couple of 3bets then I'll try to get it right then.

defending 22-66 to most positions raise non multiway is pretty spew.

for LP raises 3b or fold

Fold and be happy about it w/ 22-66. 77 is kind of my cut off, I'll flat sometimes and folds others depending on how much villain likes to barrel, how easily he'll let us get to sd and our chances to get FE postflop. 88-TT is easy call territory and a 3-bet in some situations.

This is how I do it at 10nl. Not saying I'm right but its worked out well thus far.

If villain is a reg or other player who's stealing a fair bit then I 3bet 22-88 and consider calling with 99-JJ. After 3betting, I cbet most flops for 60%
If the player is tight then I call w/ pp's b/c they still have set value imo.

EDITED ... my previous example was pretty bad. This e.g. is from 25nl
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($29.57)
SB ($35.92)
Hero (BB) ($27.33)
UTG ($7.12)
UTG+1 ($27.92)
MP1 ($27.66)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($14.29)
villain (CO) ($26.82)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8
5 folds, villain bets $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises $2.30, 1 fold
Total pot: $1.60
Villain was stealing 31% from CO

DanAron: You mentioned you can fold 22-55 in blinds, 66 is neutral and 77 is too nitty but I dont see how. Do we expect 77 to be ahead of that many mp/lp raising ranges? Most of the time from 22-88 imo we are flipping with overcards unless we expect villain to start raising K6, A6 etc...

depends on the size of the open raise

depends on your image

depends on villains cbet frequency

depends...

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

depends on the size of the open raise

depends on your image

depends on villains cbet frequency

depends...

Best advice yet

Originally Posted by DanAronG

You can't really play for set value as villains range is so wide you only have a small chance of getting paid off. I'm not folding as I most likely have the best hand.

flipping oop isn't usually the best hand?

@vinland i think your sizing in spots like this is messed up and stack sizes are really important in the hand you posted

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

flipping oop isn't usually the best hand?

these were my original thoughts when i read the OP, and part of the reason why i said they are the most over-rated xx amount of combos to play out of the blinds. people seem to think that because they have a pair before the flop comes out that they have some great hand. this isn't necessarily the case. also, having to play them OOP 100% of the time, and with typically black/white (and more often than not, weak) postflop equity (when compared to Axs, Kxs, SCs, SGs), and also without the initiative (if we decide to flat them), they seem like pretty shitty candidates to play in heads up pots out of the blinds to me.

obviously this differs for different people though. if i didn't suck postflop i could obviously play more hands profitably out of the blinds against stealing ranges.

Imthenewfish wrote:

@vinland i think your sizing in spots like this is messed up and stack sizes are really important in the hand you posted

yeah my bad. Didnt even look at stack sizes. I put in a new hand thats prob more relevant.

Originally Posted by Vinland

I put in a new hand thats prob more relevant.

the new hand is worse imo. 88 is so much more profitable to flat out of the blinds than 33.

the reason i do not liek 3betting them is because we block their folding range hard lol