Slow playing conservative players

lets say your in a hand with 99 and preflop you raised 5x blinds. 2 players known to be conservative call. You get the read that they both either have a pocket pair or a good hand. The flop comes 9 J 9 Rainbow. You've hit a monster hand that most likely won't lose. How do you play this hand? knowing the 2 conservative players most likely wont get anything or take a stab at the pot. How can you play this hand to get a good payday?

Let them hit soemthing (hopefully unfoldable) and get them in the pot then. Just check and hope.

-'rilla

depends on your position. in EP, check to the river and hope one of them catches something, then throw a pot sized bet on the river to make it look like you are buying the pot. in late position, with 15x BB in the pot already, make a weak bet that you think they are likely to call with a weak two pair or overcards, like 25% of the pot or less. It will add value to the pot, and trigger action from someone who might be trying to slowplay JJ.

It really all depends on your position. If your in late position you have to check till the river and hope they catch something, later you should just make a bet that inspires weakness and makes it seem likie your buying the pot, sometimes youll get a raiser because theyll get mad at your bad attempt to try to steal the pot.

It depends how smart the players are, and how conservative. With a hand like that you're not going to lose, so you may as well do whatever it takes to get their money.

The common strategy is to check to the river and then bet whatever you think they'll call based on the rest of the cards that come out. Personally I've had a little better luck with this:

- bet the flop, confidently, but not a huge bet. With that board, if you bet less than the pot you should get some calls from all but the most conservative players (assuming someone has a jack, or two overs, or a high pair).

- check the turn. That makes them think your bet on the flop was a scare. You may get someone to bet into you on the turn if you check, in which case think about it for a bit and then just call (no raise).

- your decision on the river - check and hope they bet big to scare you, or bet medium-big and hope for calls. You have to know the players. The truly conservative never throw out scare bets so there's no point not betting here, but if they are at all likely to buy the pot, let them try.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

lets say your in a hand with 99 and preflop you raised 5x blinds. 2 players known to be conservative call. You get the read that they both either have a pocket pair or a good hand. The flop comes 9 J 9 Rainbow. You've hit a monster hand that most likely won't lose. How do you play this hand? knowing the 2 conservative players most likely wont get anything or take a stab at the pot. How can you play this hand to get a good payday?

Funny you ask that. I checked the flop the turn then bet on the river to at least get something out of it.

Reason being I have an earlier post about hitting 4 of a kind and got someone to call my River bet.

check and hope they stab at it

It would seem to be weird betting 5x preflop and not betting the flop. However, with a nut hand you probably want to check it out, hoping for the opp to have something. I probably would throw some bet out there in the flop anyways.

Push AI on flop.

Mr. Conservative will have a big hand like AA or KK or maybe if you're lucky JJ.

Conservative is a wierd term. Do you mean tight/solid or weak?

Any overpair or even AJ may think you are buying the pot on that scary flop and look you up. Whatever happens you are almost certain to win. Why not go for the double up. Forget the slow play.

You have the deck crippled on the flop. You have to check and pray someone has the JJ like I did that one time. But I digress. You can not expect a caller on that flop. Just check and hope.

Originally Posted by okietalker

You have the deck crippled on the flop. You have to check and pray someone has the JJ like I did that one time. But I digress. You can not expect a caller on that flop. Just check and hope.

I disagree with that. Not that checking isn't the smart move, because it definitely can be, but at a lot of tables you will get calls with up to a pot-sized bet on that flop. Anyone holding any of these might very well call you (in approximate order of the likelihood of getting called or raised):

- pocket jacks (full house)
- pocket pair, queens through aces (two pair with an overpair in the pocket, and a draw to the nut boat)
- gapped cards, T/Q or 8/T (open-ended straight draw)
- jack/other face card (two pair good kicker, and a draw to the nut boat)
- any pocket pair lower than jacks (two pair with a draw to a surprise boat)
- connectors Q/K or K/A (gutshot straight draw with Q/K... nothing really with K/A, but most people overvalue big slick and will call too long with it)
- gapped cards, Q/A (just two overs, though it looks like a straight draw if you don't think about it much)
- connectors, 7/8 (gutshot low-end straight draw)

There are a lot of hands that give opponents reasons to call you, and a lot that don't but that they think do. In other words, don't assume you have cornered the market on decent hands. In short-handed play (four or less) you probably have no reason to bet this flop, because it's very unlikely anyone made a hand; but at a full table with several other people seeing the flop, I think it's appropriate to bet pot-size or less and expect at least one call, maybe more.

I think it's a mistake to assume that if there's a pair on the board, only people with the trips will call a bet. Yeah, you have both of the nines, but you will definitely get some calls (at least on the flop) from people with draws and other miscellaneous two pair-type hands. The dream situation is if you get called, then someone hits their draw on the turn and you check to them. That's just begging for a huge bet back at you, which can only end well for your quad-nines. The main thing is not to freak out over your good luck and spend ten seconds figuring out how to extract the cash from this great hand. Whatever you do, play in your normal style: confidently, quickly. Check quickly or bet quickly. I usually have in my mind what I am going to do (based on my position and fellow players) what I will do on this hand, if I flop a monster. I want to have the decision made before it happens.

You have the deck crippled on the flop.

Everytime I see this, I know that person must have read SuperSystem.

with 5X preflop bet, and i flop quads with 9's I push all in. Who makes a 5X preflop bet that holds anything with a 9 in it. You'll get called by anyone with a jack and QQ KK and AA, you might even get called by AK. if 2 of a suit are on board you might get called by the flush draw, but if noone is holding the flush cards in their hand if that 3rd to the flush hits your action is most likely going to be dead anyway. if someone is in there with a weak hand like QK they might call with a gutshot as well. Theres alot of bad calls people can make with a flop like that and i'd give them the chance to make them.

[quote="lhoney2"]

Everytime I see this, I know that person must have read SuperSystem. [/quote

Who wrote super system? I was in Borders the other day and decided to look it up on the ocmputers and thonghint came up poker related, it also wasn't in the poker section.

WHO WROTE SUPERSYSTEMS?!?!!?!?

A lot of people but mainly Doyle Brunson. Now go and be ashamed for not knowing that!

-'rilla

I'm not ashemed, I'm new

Been playing for a month now, go easy on me

Edit: I'm assuming it must be added to my poker "must reads"?

It's ok. New players make the poker world go 'round.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by bigred

Edit: I'm assuming it must be added to my poker "must reads"?

Pretty much. For years it was the poker bible, particularly the hold 'em section, and most any player out there who is making profits has read it or at least skimmed it. If you want to understand how a large percentage of your opponents are going to play, you must read it. And it's not without useful advice for you, either, no matter what your playing style is currently. It turned me from tight-passive to tight-aggressive (and introduced a whole slew of colorful terms into my poker vocabulary).

Originally Posted by melinda27

with 5X preflop bet, and i flop quads with 9's I push all in. Who makes a 5X preflop bet that holds anything with a 9 in it. You'll get called by anyone with a jack and QQ KK and AA, you might even get called by AK. if 2 of a suit are on board you might get called by the flush draw, but if noone is holding the flush cards in their hand if that 3rd to the flush hits your action is most likely going to be dead anyway. if someone is in there with a weak hand like QK they might call with a gutshot as well. Theres alot of bad calls people can make with a flop like that and i'd give them the chance to make them.

You think like me. Although more aggressively. I don't know... in my experience the majority of players won't call an all-in, even if they "know" you're bluffing, without a hand that is at least as good as trips. Discount queens, kings, and aces, because the majority of the time no one at the table has one of those hands. Really, you're hoping for calls from people with straight draws or two pair/good kicker - and I think you are more likely to get those calls with a confident, large bet, but not a push. Then again, it depends on your opponents, as always. Some people love calling all-ins on general principle; they always read them as bluffs and will call them with anything. If you have a guy like that at the table, use him for all he's worth. But I'd say if you don't for sure have a player who thinks that way, or if you really don't know who you're playing with, a pot-sized bet or smaller will yield a better return. Particularly if they catch something on the turn or river and you check on at least the turn.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Originally Posted by bigred

Edit: I'm assuming it must be added to my poker "must reads"?

Pretty much. For years it was the poker bible, particularly the hold 'em section, and most any player out there who is making profits has read it or at least skimmed it. If you want to understand how a large percentage of your opponents are going to play, you must read it. And it's not without useful advice for you, either, no matter what your playing style is currently. It turned me from tight-passive to tight-aggressive (and introduced a whole slew of colorful terms into my poker vocabulary).

I saw there's a sequel, what's the word on that?

P.S. Sorry for being off topic

I'd bet, but not that big. The most I'd bet would probably be about half the size of the pot, but more likely what I bet preflop (5xBB).

A check looks like a monster after preflop betting big like that. A good player wouldn't fall for that trap unless they also had a monster, in which case they'll play along with you even if you bet.

An all in doesn't look like a 9, and certainly not quads, true. But it looks like an overpair, and a good tight player would fold AJ and probably even QQ here. If a good player played a hand like that with that flop I'd certainly put him on KK or QQ. With QQ, a good tight player should be reasonably sure you have at least KK, and not be happy about it, but be able to lay it down. With KK they'll probably call since it looks like QQ, as they probably wouldn't think you'd play AA, JJ, or any 9 like that. But they're only likely to call with JJ, AA, and KK, and no matter how you play it you'll get all of JJ's chips and probably AA's. The all in option would probably only be best if you have a loose aggressive image.

With the standard bet at the flop, they really gain no new information about your hand, particularly if you often bluff at a pot in the same fashion. With this bet you really could have any hand that you would've made a 5xBB preflop bet with, whether that be AK, AQ, QQ, TT, AJ, etc.

And the big bonus is now you're inviting a hand like AJ or QQ to reraise you rather big, as they have no reason to believe that their hand isn't good. Checking may get them to bet once or so, but they'll be much more likely to fold to any raise by you, possibly completely stop betting after you check call on the flop, and be extremely unlikely to play back at you on any street, as they should be smelling a serious monster being slowplayed (i.e. JJ) if you check call on the flop after a big preflop raise.

The way I'd play the hand would be entirely different if I called someone else's raise, as I'd slow play then for sure, but if you make a big preflop raise from early position they'll expect you to bet again at a flop like this with almost anything you have, unless you're an extremely passive player.

If you hit quads on the flop with two known conservatives...you gotta check it, throwing out a little bait hoping someone will catch a hand and make a bet. When you hit the nuts on the flop, there's really not much else you can do.

the way i like to play against these conservative players is to come out betting if i hit trips or better on the flop. more often then not i find that they would call to see the turn and then if they catch something on the turn when u bet they would reraise u. i would then check raise the river. this is so because conservative players think this way. if they themselves hit the trips or boat or flush on the flop they would slow play it to the max. thus to see u come out firing like this it is more often then not they put u on a drawing hand. thus they do not mind calling on the flop hoping to hit something on the river and raise u to find out the relative strength of your hand. but that is just my two cents

I saw there's a sequel, what's the word on that?

As far as I know, its not relased yet, but I have really been waiting for it. Here is a link to it on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846