Situational Question

Ok, stakes level is micro, 10NL. You're the seat before the cutoff with JJ. UTG folds, UTG1 raises, folded around to you, who re-raises. Folds around back to the original raiser who shoves for a comparible stack to yours. For ease of analysis let's say you both start the hand with $10 stacks, MP0 raised to 0.40, you raised to 1.20.
How large does Villian's PFR% have to be to make calling the shove +EV?

I don't think PFR gives you a good indicator here....how often is he 4betting...your probably way behind or flipping coins unless villain is a HEEHAW

Personally, I would have called with the JJ and saw the flop at these stakes. If there's no ace on the flop, bet or raise.

Yea its far more about 4bet frequency than PFR, but with nothing to go on I probably call if hes raising 40+% though.

Against most players at these stakes I wouldnt 3 bet JJ anyway especially not in position Vs an EP raiser when everyone else is folded and Its so likely to be headsup. In most cases Id rather just take a flop and play it from there.

guys, OP said villain "shoves w/ a comparable stack."

there is no "see the flop." this is all-in or fold.

that said. i wouldnt call a push...most times. with no read on your opponent, you just cant go heads up, unless you have a read that he's rather aggressive.

however, i dont fold this EVERY time, either. i will call about one in 10 times anyway. dont know when w/o a read, but its not a bad call...on rare occasion. especially if table image counts for anything...which down here, it really doesnt.

Villain doesnt open shove here. He bets, we raise he shoves. There is no "see a flop" because we have put ourselves in a position where he can shove. If we had just called he wouldnt have shoved and we would have seen a flop.
Now Im not saying we shouldnt 3bet JJ preflop incase he shoves. Im just saying that at this level, where people will often call with weak aces/kings and we wont know where we are after we cbet with an overcard and they call, it is often better to just call in position preflop and not let him shove.
If hes really aggressive then 3bet and if hes really really agressive then 3 bet and call a shove.
If hes pretty TAG then 3bet and fold to the shove.
If hes fairly loose and passive (like alot of the players at these stakes) then dont 3bet and dont call a shove.

i still must be misreading the OP. i see that UTG+1 raises to .40, we RR to 1.20, and he shoves over?

in which case the post is about calling the shove, no? villain shoved over w/ like $9ish...leaving me plenty of room to get away from my JJ w/ only a dollar twenty invested. the answer from me was "not usually, but i dont always fold here either."

yes, if villain is LAGgy, i pop it to 1.20. if he is TAG or has a pfr under 8ish, i just call the .40, and "see a flop." i also fold to a cbet with the latter to any over card against the passive pfr'r...i expect its a cbet (AQ+ alot), but cant call into the overs w/o a more specific read.

JJ is a bit tricky for me. i like to play it with power...when i can w/o much resistence. but when RRed, i tend to give the raise a lot of credit...and then slow play my JJJ if i get lucky. if i have an over pair, i stick with aggression (but i whine under my breath about "having to do it"), i tend to pop it good on the flop if oop, and raise the cbet if i have position...but i dont get too carried away with the hand after that if villain refuses to go away.

there. in case there was confusion about an answer, that should be both cases for this hand...imo.

you didnt misread it, you just got hung up on it. The original question is a 1 word answer. We answered it and then moved on to another important (probably more so) part of the hand.

i dont necessarily agree with "getting hung up on it." btw, thx for the comment in the other thread, pel, but i tend to get wordy with thoughts because i feel we "owe it" to a newer member to explain ourselves with more than one word.

yes, there are other things to discuss about the hand/situation, but i didnt think the OP was asking about those.

i just remember when i was "new" here, and to the game. i wanted as much "thought" behind the decisions explained to me, too. and i got a lot of "it depends" or "that should be obvious."

so, sorry if i act with too much.

Originally Posted by Chopper

so, sorry if i act with too much.

Im not really sure what you mean here but you've nothing to apologise for. I just dont think theres alot of explaining you can do on a "what percentage does this stat need to say before I do this". Thats why I moved onto something I thought we could actually have a discussion about . Anyway about as much into this thread as I have for now so Im off to the commune to look at TV anchors.

i didnt think there WAS an answer for that one myself. so, i guess i didnt deliver on the actual question, either. at least not a math based answer. its kind of a "feel" thing with me.

no worries.

Thanks for all the great replies guys, I realize now that 4bet frequency is a lot more important in this situation than villian's pfr%.

I've never been an overly solid cash game player, I've enjoyed quite a bit of success in small to mid-sized tournaments 100-1000 MTTs and various sub100 SNGs so my main leaks are obviously going to be tactical. My line is roughly 22/11/2.5 the bulk of my losses have come from overvaluing large overpairs post flop to raises, middle pairs when only one over flops in 3way or heads up hands, and not releasing two pair when draws complete and/or overcards hit on the turn and river (Over 5400 hands 2 pair is a losing hand for me! This does not differentiate though between two pair on the board, split two pair, unsplit two pair).

3betting JJ in position at microstakes just seems like the right thing to do, although when the pot is likely contested heads-up I can see why re-raising might narrow our range down a bit (however, if they are unaware of what a range even is, and are likely to call a 3bet with the bulk of their raising hands aren't we ahead of at least 80% iof a 15-20% raising range?). It's practically screaming "I'm on { JJ+,AQs+,AK }". I've noticed a lot of the looser microstakes cash players are always trying to spike a tricky 2 pair with {Q,K,A}x where x is a baby, and their calling range increases to add a few hands they figure will be pump or dump after the flop.

Pelion: Are you on AIM by any chance? If so, I'd really like to chew the fat with you some time on cash game tactics and strategy in general, if I'm losing 15-20 buyins in < 1000 hands after being up 7 or 8 in the first 4000 there must be some huge leaks in my game that I wasn't previously aware of. If that sounds doable PM me with your screen name.

Readless, I prolly fold.

I always threebet there as well.

At these stakes and not knowing anything about who we are dealing with I think, like others said, you should flat call pre-flop with a hand like JJ.

You put $1.20 in and he shoves for $8.80 more? I think you have to lay down your JJ here. I mean the only hand your not crushed by is AK and even in that situation your only a little over 50% to win.

Fold here.