Should it be like this?

I'm a relativly new pokerplayer.
I think alot about poker...

I have read a book about poker, and read alot on the internet, about being a "tight and aggressive" player, and about A-B-C-D-E-F starting hands, positionplay and so on. I think I play "by the book".
I still don't have a good feeling to bet vs odds at this point, but maybe that will come in time...

But how thight should you be?
When I'm playing this tight positionplay, as the books told me, I maybe see 1 flop/hour, and of course the BB-flops when I check even with a bad hand.

Is this normal? I never see anyone else play as few hands as I do...
Or is it the famous pokergods that just wants to give me a hard start.

And more sh-t...
This one time per hour i have a good hand the flop shows something else... How should you play then? Then I never play a single hand!

And when I have something really good like A-A-A on the flop, the other players just fold (of course - when I'm this thight), or the flop+turn&river shows an open ended straight or something on the table, so I loose anyway...
Then I try to play some "low" hands too, like 4-5s 5-6s 6-7s 7-8s, to hide my "thightness" to the other players. But nothing seems to work. And to play this kind of hands it takes a good position in the first place. And what are the odds at getting the hands in just the right time and position... For me... Never... Yet...

How many hands per average hour should you play, and how thight do you play then? How many of this hands are "fake-low" hands?

Kind regards

If you play one hand per hour you are playing way too few hands. I don't have the 'formal' numbers but I think you should see ~15-20% of the flops

yes...about 12-18% of flops seen should be ok IMO. Less than 8% or so is just to low for me and if your playin one hand in an hour that about 4.-5% which is extremely low


-anto

I played poker with my friends for awhile and I always lost. I only did it for fun but eventually I stopped becuase I was tired of losing money.

anyways, about a year later, when I came back to poker, I decided I wanted to read up alittle first. I bought like 4 or 5 books. They all basicly said the same thing. And, as you did, I played tight and ended up losing every game by far becuase of the hands I was playing.

But i learned that it depends heavely on the players you are playing. If it is a lose table, then play a bit more lose. If there aren't very many people at the table, play loser still. Things like this are what you should consider everytime:

People and their looseness/tightness
Amount of players (the more, the tighter)
Your position (the earlier, the tighter)
Past Events

Also, whoever is directly behind you or in front of you. If the person behind re-raises you everytime, then maybe you should wait for a monster and then move all-in on him. If the person before you is very tight, put pressure on him. This is just my style and philosophy. You should experiment, don't be afraid to lose money, once you experiment, you will figure out how it is most comfortable and successful for you to play.

There are other things, but to me these are the most influential.

I feel like I gave away to much information...

I know this sounds kinda obvious, but you should be playing tight enough so that the hands you do play, given your position, can win (and win a big pot). Your goal is to win money, not pots.

The goal is ALSO to keep your stack. You want to keep yourself out of positions where you're bleeding chips off (chasing bad draws, weak cards (like QJ) out of position, etc), so you want to play tight.

On the other hand, your big hands you want to play aggressively, betting and raising. (The real key here is that so many people play crappy hands, when you only play good hands you're going to show a long-term profit.)

You can't be afraid, either. Don't be afraid to lose. And don't be afraid to win.

To be fair nick, if you read this forum regularly you are recieving a lot more information than you are giving, as it should be.

Look, I'm probably not someone to be taking advice from but I will spout some information your way and hopefully my experience can be helpful to you in some way. Be warned, I am long winded and like to hear my fingers clicking away.

It sounds like you are playing NL holdem which is what I play.

I am still in what I consider to be a really cold run of cards and although I do bluff, semi-bluff etc...I pretty much play ABC poker as they call it when I am not on a bluff/semi-bluff type of situation. However, even though I am in what I consider to be a bad run, I see allot more than one flop per hour (discounting the blinds of course). I play pretty tight so I sometimes can go 30-40 hands without seeing a flop other than the blinds but I probably actually average around playing one in 15-20 hands though so I see maybe 3-6 flops an hour depending on the situaiton. I am already playing too tight but it suits my risk level right now as I am still learning to play myself and I sometimes move around if people are on to the fact that I'm tighter than a bankers asshole (I just made that up, hehe) because they won't give me any action. BTW, you are probably missing out on allot of pot stealing opportunities if you lack the agression to bet on a flop that misses you. Sometimes you even want to come in with crap if no one is being agressive and everyone is limping but from my experience this works less than it should because even when you have a good pre-flop hand there's always some shmuck that will call you down with bottom pair all the way to the river and beat your AKs. You need to identify those people when you can and don't bother bluffing at a pot they are in beyond maybe a 1/2 pot sized bet. What is it that they say? "You can always bluff a good player but you can never bluff a bad player."

So anyway, if you have a good hand pre-flop, meaning you have a playable hand for your position and no one has raised ahead of you making your particular hand less valuable or even worthless for the position etc... you should find out where you stand post flop. If you are first to act and you were the agressor pre-flop you should be agressive on the flop even if it didn't hit you hard (as it WILL miss more than it hits and a pair of AA is still just a pair and not that strong if 3 other yahoo's decided to call your 5x BB raise pre-flop and it happens all the time). You should be using your chips to gain information about your opponents holdings. They are not just money but an information gathering tool that you have to judiciously use to determine where you stand in a pot. Its better to lose 5 bucks to find out your beat on the flop than to waste your whole stack to find it out on the river. Allot of people bluff part of the time but most of the time they aren't totally bluffing and they will at least have a piece of it or a good drawing hand if they stick with you when you've shown agression on the first 2 rounds of betting. If they are bluffing allot you will catch onto it over time as you or someone else will bust them on a big bluff and they'll lose their whole stack (hopefully to you). If you bet pre-flop, the flop comes cold for you and you are holding something like AK and the flop is ragged then you should put a sizeable bet 1/2 to 1x the pot out there to see where you stand unless the pot is already massively large then you have to use your judgement or you may already have reason to believe you are beaten. If you get called you have to wonder what other people have. Do they have a piece of it? Do they have the whole enchilada? Are they coming back over the top of you? This is what poker is all about. Learning the rules and the basic starting hands is really just the beginning as I am finding out. The game doesn't really start until you've seen the flop, this is when the action begins and you've made something like 70% of your hand already. Online I rarely see a pot taken down pre-flop unless its a tournament in which case it happens quite allot actually. One exception is when you are a tight player on the button or 1 off and you are stealing blinds but even still you have to know your opponent because allot of people will not put up with their blinds being stolen and will call with anything to prove it.

Act according to your position, your cards, your stack size compared to players left to act after you, the size of the pots, your pot/drawing/implied odds, whether you know someone is a maniac or tight etc...all of these factors and allot more come into play on each and every hand and by all other peoples accounting to me it will take you months and months if not years and years to be able to make the right move most of the time.

I think one important thing that I know is right is that if you are a tight player you will eventually be a winner if your game skills continue to increase(at least I hope so for my sake). If you are a tight player with a strong image you can more effectively use your chips and your postion in the hand and your table image to effect what other people will do. Although some people aren't paying any attention to anything but what's in their hand in which case ABC poker is all you can use against them, get in there with the best of it.

Another thing I hear all the time from those more worthy than me is something I touched on above. You need to know where you stand in any hand you are in on and the only way to do that is to put a read on someone (difficult to do in online games without the proper time to figure them out) or use your chips to your advantage and risk some of your profits/buy-in to put someone on a hand with how they react to your bet (this means whether they call/raise you or even how long it takes them to react whatever their decision may be). Also, if you know your going to stick with a hand to the end and you think you have the best hand now but could be drawn out on AND you know that if you stick with it to the end then all of your money is going to be in the pot anyway at the end of the hand then go ahead and go all in right then and there (note, calling an all in and making the all-in bet are two different situation, read about the GAP principle for NL Holdem it is VERY TRUE.) IF you were going to play it through anyway then you are not losing any extra money and your making a huge statement in saying, I know I have a hand and here is the money to prove it and most likely if you really do have a strong hand the other guy probably doesn't and your going to take the pot right there which is always better than taking it to the showdown unless you have the nuts. Of course, you can't use this move too often and you must be careful to read your opponent and make sure you can't put him on the nuts. Don't let someone trick you into making these bets (easier said than done).

One situation that is likely to happen is that you'll end up with a set on the flop or two pair on the flop but there is a draw to a flush or straight already on the board or wose both. This is a scary flop and you have to be very careful. For the most part I will not be too agressive in this situation as most of the time your setting youself up to be in a losing position if this happens because someone is drawing to the nuts and it just isn't worth your chip stack and bruised ego to make a huge bet and get called down or go all in here and get busted by someone drawing to a better hand. Make a reasonable bet (1/2 to 1x the pot) and see what happens. If you get called then be very careful about how you approach the rest of the hand unless you really have a good read on your oppoenent (which I am still learning to do). A set is still likely to win but you must be causious when playing with people who love drawing hands and Ax or even Kx suited hands always trying to get you with the flush.

I think in any hand you want to go into you have to go into it as the agressor (unless your slowplaying a monster hand that is virtually unbreakable) and continue to be agressive if you want to play the hand. The minute you show weakness you will get taken down more often than not. Its better to take down a pot when your ahead and make $5 then to wait for the turn or the river and get beaten on a draw for a $50 pot.

If you are getting beaten allot on really great starting hands (JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AKs/AKo) allot then it might also be profitable for you to show your hand on occasion to at least let someone know "you got lucky against me punk I don't come into a flop with a bullshit hand like your Q3o!" Of course, you don't want to say this to people, its implied in the fact that you showed your hand. Always be polite and hope they make the move again when you have the nuts and you know this moron comes in with whacky hands trying to get lucky. Also, I know people say to never show cards but here is another example of a time I think you should occasionaly show which ties into my point above... sometimes you will hit a great run of cards and you have to play them and you may win the first two hands or so but then people think you are bluffing all of a sudden because you are playing so many hands back to back and they can't believe you'd be on such a run and you have to keep that shit in check as to how you continue to play these hands because a great run of cards can be your downfall if you play them all full-tilt as people will get sick of it, allot of people will come into the pot with you and destroy your odds and take away all of the profit you just made in the previous hand and probably some of your buy-in too. If you find youself in a great run of hands play the first few full tilt and be agressive but if you get some great pre-flop hands directly after that like AK, AQ, TT and the flop doesn't hit you and looks scary then back off on the flop betting and let someone else take it down if you have to. You don't want to get what I call the "karma burn" where you are getting too greedy and expecting to win your good hands and then suddenly you loose a big stack on your KK. Something that is helping me is to remember that I'm not entitled to win any pots and I have to play my cards well and earn those pots, only when I have earned them am I entitled to the win and even then you can get burned. I actually prefer to get a good hand once every 15 or so because then people almost instinctively know that i'm playing a good hand and they take my bets seriously. They may still call me or raise me but then I also know where I stand. When I get them all at once its very frustrating unless they are really great one's like AA, KK, AKs. When you are getting allot of them you may consider slowplaying some of the bigger ones and just see what happens. Don't get too cute and try this allot but on occasion it can be a great tool to rake in a pot that is much larger than normal. Likewise, don't be afraid to lay down AA when you were slowplaying against a large field of opponents and the flop comes KQJ or 44K, all one suit, etc... and you are re-raised or faced with an agressive bet.

If the pot is getting really big it is getting that way for a reason, not even complete idiots will call/throw their whole stack away at a pot in hopes of winning (well, ok, sometimes they do) with nothing. You have to show down the best hand if you are getting action on the flop. If you have the nut flush and the board is paired and another player can clearly see that the nut flush could be made but he's betting into you, you are probably beaten by a boat. This one was an expensive lesson to learn. Remember that 2 pair can improve to a full boat with 1 card and that beats just about every other hand going. Likewise, full boats get beaten by better full boats or 4-of-a-kind all the time so be careful and be agressive when it is time but DO NOT be afraid to lay down a hand on the river if your gut tells you to get out.

For the most part play your hands straight up unless you flop a true monster, be very agressive in your pots and take a win when you can get it and don't try to eek out a few extra dollars on a hand because on those times you do get drawn out on it will take away all the extra dollars you earned previously.

This is just my two cents and I hope that if I've made any glaring mistakes in my comments that someone with more experience will come in and correct me.

Regards,

Boo

(PS, if your basic game is already good but you still feel like a loser player then pick up Theory of Poker and read it from cover to cover many times and refer back to it anytime you have questions). This is advice that I am currently taking myself that was passed on to me. It is a good book that teaches you more about the game than just the ABC's.

*whistles appreciatively*

It's a bit wordy, but it covers it all. *gestures to the above post*

Act according to your position, your cards, your stack size compared to players left to act after you, the size of the pots, your pot/drawing/implied odds, whether you know someone is a maniac or tight etc...all of these factors and allot more come into play on each and every hand and by all other peoples accounting to me it will take you months and months if not years and years to be able to make the right move most of the time.

I'd like to emphasis how observent you must be of your opponents. Start getting into the habit of taking small notes on them to help organize your thoughts during a hand. Mine usually note how the act post flop, what their raising standards and calling standards are preflop, if they're a clever player or a fish.. etc etc. You need to know your players to beat them. Right off the bat, it's not something to focus all your energies on. There are other aspects of your game to watch. Most importantly, what hands you're playing for loses and when you're making bad calls ect ect. But you should atleast start watching the other players a bit more.

-'rilla

Hey, I wanted to bring up an add-on to the original post by Excalibur and the comments by TLR and Elanto.

If you see 15-20 percent of the flops are you including in your flop percentage those where you were able to sneak in on the blinds with?

Also, when you aren't getting any hands that are playable (meaning you know you are most likely not going in with the best of it and are most likely dominated) why would you want to see the flop.

I guess my real question is...Don't the cards predominantly dictate the amount of flops you will see? If you are getting cards that you would normally not play why would you change your playing style and start playing bad cards or playing out of position just to see a higher percentage of flops. Especially since most always the pot has been raised preflop already. I can see every once in a while playing an off hand trying to get lucky or so you can show cards maybe to show that you don't always play tight etc...

Thanks, your feedback is appreciated.

Regards,

Boo

Since the distribution of good hands being dealt to you is a predicatable 15-20% you're still only playing the good hands. If you're not getting dealt ANY good hands, it'll be lower. And if you're getting dealt ONLY good hands, it will be high. However, both cases are rare oddities. So 15-20% is a good general indicator of what hands you are playing. (You don't have to force yourself to play within this range, but if you are naturally too loose, the number will be high and if you are too tight it will be lower.)

-'rilla

My opinion.. Throw away the book, change ABC to XYZ, and learn to become your own player. Play 74 a few times, call that raise that 5 people have called already with 63. Raise with J10, learn how to play a hand in the shoes of your opponent, learn how to re-raise, learn how to control a table. If you are passionte about the game, learn how to play it for yourself. Understand the fundementals, understand how the vast majority of your opponents will play, then play with different style of play, find your game that way.

Who knows you might turn out to be an ABC player, then you can get the book out of the trash.

After I started learning about playing and started learning about hand groups or levels or whatever you want to call them, I strated by only playing from the first 4 groups from any position. This left out mid-bottom pairs, and mid-lower suited and unsuited connectors etc. Then as part of learning I expanded a little aand added some hands from the next couple of groups in later position.

This was like a base of hands I played. Now as you play more and more, and are more observant of other players, I kind of tweak this base of hands, playing adding some hands and not playing some based on a wide range of things. You're in late position and there a lot of people in the pot, that 65s is worth a call or maybe a raise. I should clarify that I just play limit, and limit and NL is night and day. But, I think the concept might be the same. In a generic game, you have a set of basic set of hands that you play from various positions in different ways which ends up being pretty close to seeing the flop 15%- 20% of the time. Then you adjust this based on the type of table, the number of people in the hand, and the tendencies you've noticed or have notes on about the individuals in the hand, and perhaps most important, your position in the hand.

From the little I know, it sounds as if you've avoided the biggest problem learning to play, that being playing too many hands. There are a lot of very good players that post here, above all, that are willing to offer their advice. I appreciate all the help they've given me, I wish I could give help to people in return someday.

One thing you might do is because you are only playing so few hands, maybe post some of the hands that you folded, that you thought maybe you should've have played, and people will offer their ideas of whether you should've maybe played them and why. Remember poker is supposed to be fun, and getting answers to questions helps to make it more fun. These guys hae helped me a ton.

Originally Posted by Radashack

My opinion.. Throw away the book, change ABC to XYZ, and learn to become your own player. Play 74 a few times, call that raise that 5 people have called already with 63. Raise with J10, learn how to play a hand in the shoes of your opponent, learn how to re-raise, learn how to control a table. If you are passionte about the game, learn how to play it for yourself. Understand the fundementals, understand how the vast majority of your opponents will play, then play with different style of play, find your game that way.

Who knows you might turn out to be an ABC player, then you can get the book out of the trash.

Dangerous advice, Radashack. You've got to let the fresh pups learn ABC before they advance to XYZ. It's like teaching calculus to a 5th grader. Playing more hands require that you can play your opponents a lot better than most and that takes nothing but experience.

-'rilla

Since the distribution of good hands being dealt to you is a predicatable 15-20% you're still only playing the good hands. If you're not getting dealt ANY good hands, it'll be lower. And if you're getting dealt ONLY good hands, it will be high. However, both cases are rare oddities. So 15-20% is a good general indicator of what hands you are playing. (You don't have to force yourself to play within this range, but if you are naturally too loose, the number will be high and if you are too tight it will be lower.)

Hmm, ok, maybe it would be helpful for Excalibur and I to post which hands we deem as playable from what positions and whether we would call/raise/re-raise etc... I have an exact set system that I play by right now which is probably different than allot of people and it is a very tight set of starting hands.

I didn't want to post it here because I wanted to ask first if there was a better place or if I should just start a new thread. I'd like to see what other people are playing, how many people are playing by the starting hand set posted on FTR etc...