Shortstack implied odds

Would you agree that have better implied odds against a half-buy because they are more likely to get pot-committed than a full-buy?

for me to agree, I'd have to be satisfied that a half stack is twice as likely to stack off as a full stack.

I'm not. So I disagree.

Assume they got AA or something. It's probably reasonable to assume a full buy is not going to try to blast you on 3 streets on a Q72 flop against your 22 so you can raise the river all in... but I reckon you can still get half a stack off them. And once in a while, they'll stack off.

And if he had AK, the full buy is more likely to try to bluff you off because he feels like he can actually exert some pressure on your stack where as half buy knows you have KQ you're gonna be felting it for 50BB

yeah, nvm I guess

It's just that I've been up against so many shortstacks who, after an obvious draw completes, still proceed to stick the rest in, that I'm beginning to wonder.

I think you usually do, but not for the reason that you said. You have better implied odds against someone who sucks than you have against someone who doesn't suck. Most shortstacks play terribly and as long as they have anything decent they'll hand you their stack.

i see a lot of short stack experts who are waiting for that one spot to double up....so they can leave and rebuy with a half stack. they arent necessarily bad tacticians, just poor strategists.

therefore, i disagree as a general statement that you can more easily pot commit a short stack, since they will often hold the hand value edge before allowing themselves to be committed.

<---- Wishes he could play every hand 50 deep.

Originally Posted by Fnord

<---- Wishes he could play every hand 50 deep.

buy in for 50?

50x the Big Blind.

Yea I know. Why dont you buy in half stacked?

he'd have to rathole too much

Yeah, I tend to accumulate chips.
Bad habbit

lol ok. So when you first sit down do you tend to buyin half? I guess it makes sense if you are unfamiliar with the players or if you know the tall stacks are better than you but the short stacks are way worse.
I was under the impression you had an edge over the majority of tall stacks in your games though.

I buy in full for a lot of different reasons.

But not because I think my edge gets higher over the field with every extra chip of depth added.

fnord, write up the world's greatest 50BB strategy...

I've been having problems against shorties, those 20bb idiots who like buying into the deep-stacked nit tables to take a shot (I'm talking 6max here). I often find myself running into them holding some garbage like J8 on a J42 flop when I make a pot-sized bet postflop, or they push for a PSB after the flop, and I'm holding AK/AQ. Is it normal to stick the shorties chips in when you've got Ace High on a nice dry board? I also struggle to fold AK high when I'm getting 2:1 on my money and shorty could have a huge range of hands. I also find it annoying that I have to change my strategy (from psycho raise-with-any-2 image to nit) when the Shorty Army come along, because my LAG strategy is a beautiful one for fairly deepstacked 6max, but 5h6h is no good against these idiots.

In terms of the original question, I disagree. In my opinion, apart from the obvious AA vs. set (and a few others) situations which have automatic implied odds, I feel a lot of implied odds in NLHE comes from forcing players to make decisions by being aggressive, forcing nits to play back at you, and forcing people who just play their cards to try to think on another level, and I feel that you need full buyins to do this effectively. Shorties also seem to have a camping mentality, and will happily lay down postflop and wait for TPTK.

I don't like short stacks very much because of the implied odds. But sometimes, shortstacks are prepared to push all their chips in on a bluff. Here is an example of tilted shortstacked guy. I couldn't believe my eyes!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($9.81)
UTG ($9.88)
Hero ($21.27)
Button ($3.30)
SB ($10.74)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, T.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 2 folds.

Flop: ($0.57) A, Q, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, Button raises to $0.9, Hero raises to $2.45, Button raises to $3.05, Hero calls $0.60.

Turn: ($6.67) A (2 players)

River: ($6.67) 4 (2 players)

Final Pot: $6.67

The guy showed 96 of spades! Can you believe that? He lost a hand against me before so he was tilted and there are a lot of cases you can see the same behavior. He is prepared to go all in on any two hands instead of rebuying. In this case, I loved I wasn't up against a full stack because he probably wouldn't do that (but you never know).

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

fnord, write up the world's greatest 50BB strategy...

Don't fold good hands.

Originally Posted by Dave Davis

I don't like short stacks very much because of the implied odds. But sometimes, shortstacks are prepared to push all their chips in on a bluff. Here is an example of tilted shortstacked guy. I couldn't believe my eyes!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($104.55)
Button ($53.15)
SB ($285.80)
BB ($238.15)
UTG ($226.50)
Fnord ($189)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with 3, 3.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, CO raises to $14, 3 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 3, 7, 7 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $22, Fnord calls $22.

Turn: ($75) 4 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

River: ($75) T (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $68.55 (All-In), Fnord calls $68.55.

Final Pot: $212.10

Results in white below:
Fnord has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of sevens).
CO has Qh Ad (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $212.10.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($109.50)
UTG ($88.30)
MP ($168.35)
Fnord ($501.85)
Button ($113.75)
SB ($392.70)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with J, Q.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Fnord raises to $10, 1 fold, SB calls $9, 1 fold, UTG calls $8.

Flop: ($32) 2, 4, J (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $8, Fnord raises to $30, SB folds, UTG calls $22.

Turn: ($92) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $48.3 (All-In), Fnord calls $48.30.

River: ($188.60) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $188.60

Results in white below:
UTG has Jc 8h (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Js Qc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Fnord wins $188.60.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($64.90)
SB ($91.65)
BB ($185.40)
Fnord ($197)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with T, K.
Fnord raises to $8, Button raises to $14, 2 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 7, T, 8 (2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $12, Fnord raises to $183, Button calls $38.90 (All-In).

Turn: ($264.90) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($264.90) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $264.90

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ts Kh (two pair, tens and sevens).
Button has Kd Ac (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $264.90.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($245.35)
Button ($127.80)
SB ($200)
BB ($319.25)
UTG ($61.50)
Fnord ($227.20)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with K, K.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, 1 fold, Button calls $8, 2 folds.

Flop: ($19) 3, T, 4 (2 players)
Fnord bets $15, Button raises to $30, Fnord raises to $219.2, Button calls $89.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($358) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($358) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $358

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
Button has Kd Td (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $358.

Even at higher stakes. Thanks, Fnord.

i see some shorties nut camp all day, then hit their hand make like $10BB and leave. casue they are so short stacked it is hard to fold to their all in. I just take notes on them when I see it happen. I know of 1 regular on stars that sits down 20BB and leaves with like 30 and sits at another table. he is actually quite profitable doing this, just very very slow at acumilating money.

How about c-betting shortstacked? I often c bet shortstacked and then he reraises to all in and I get like 5 to 1 odds to call so I can call with king high. It just seems like a waste of money.

Originally Posted by Fnord

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($104.55)
Button ($53.15)
SB ($285.80)
BB ($238.15)
UTG ($226.50)
Fnord ($189)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with 3, 3.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, CO raises to $14, 3 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 3, 7, 7 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $22, Fnord calls $22.

Turn: ($75) 4 (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

River: ($75) T (2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $68.55 (All-In), Fnord calls $68.55.

Final Pot: $212.10

Results in white below:
Fnord has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of sevens).
CO has Qh Ad (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $212.10.

fnord...if that 4th club doesn't come on the river, are you still checking there? do you think he still bluffs off his stack

Here's a shortie that built his stack up above a half-buyin but continued to play like he had 25bb:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $124.05
CO: $200
Hero: $249.60
SB: $312.45
BB: $201.30

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K A
UTG raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: A T 7 ($27, 3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $20, UTG raises all-in $112.05, Hero calls.

Turn: 4 ($251.1, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $251.1)


River: 3 ($251.1, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $251.1)


Results:
Final pot: $251.1
UTG showed Th 8h