Set or forget...your PP showdown cutoff

You're dealt a pp UTG and raise 4xBB preflop. You get two callers. Flop comes lower junk than your pair so you put out a 2/3 pot bet. One caller folds but LAGGY HJ raises you 3X. Your read is he's also holding a pair (not a set). How high does your pair need to be to go to showdown? (assume turn and river don't help either of you)

Will he ever fold an overpair?

I guess the question is what would you need to be holding to call the raise/play back at him? He'll play 22 like the nuts in position (kinda like Fnord).

HJ has full stack?

With Js/Ts I am calling to evaluate the turn. Is calling and possibly being pushed off later (by big bets) with more undercards bad?

As/Ks/Qs I am likely pushing.


If he is short stack (20xbb left) I push TT and greater.

Originally Posted by EricE

HJ has full stack?

ya, full buy

for me it would depend on how much higher than the board my PP is. for example, 99 on an 8 high board isnt nearly as strong as 99 on a 6 high board (since we are assuming no set for opp).

On a related note, would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to beat poker, thanks.

Originally Posted by Lukie

On a related note, would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to beat poker, thanks.

Lukie u r such a condescending asshole.

But u make me laugh.

Originally Posted by Lukie

On a related note, would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to beat poker, thanks.

The reason I'm asking is because I've faced a few situations like this where I've been raised by anything from 22+. A read is essential of course, but I'm just wondering if other players have a general rule of thumb they use.

btw, bite me.

Call raise and look to re-evaluate turn.If you hit your sset on the turn you are stacking him.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Lukie

On a related note, would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to beat poker, thanks.

The reason I'm asking is because I've faced a few situations like this where I've been raised by anything from 22+. A read is essential of course, but I'm just wondering if other players have a general rule of thumb they use.

btw, bite me.

No disrespect man, but I think it's kind of silly that you think that anybody can come up with a helpful response to your original post. It's just so vague and unanswerable. Sure, you can use the words 'in general' or 'guidelines' and what not, but the simple reality is that these kind of situations are so incredibly dependant on stuff like reads, table dynamics, how the guy's playing, how YOU"RE playing, flop texture ('lower junk then your overpair' doesn't exactly give too much info) and just so many things that make this question absolutely useless on a practical level. I mean, in spots like this I'm usually folding small/mid pairs, but that seems really obvious. Sometimes I'll push TT in these spots and sometimes I'll fold AA. Or I might give it a call with QQ, or I might call with AA and check/fold the turn. Or check/push the turn. There's just so many variables that go into it.

1 more thing

I guess the question is what would you need to be holding to call the raise/play back at him? He'll play 22 like the nuts in position (kinda like Fnord).

Fnord, unless he's gone suicidal maniac since I've played with him, is a good, solid TAgg. I don't know why everyone thinks he's this crazy laggtard.

What Lukie said there is kind of what I thought too when I read the first post. Basically, if you get a straight answer to your question, it's wrong, and if you want a more wholesome "it depends" answer, you'd be looking at an essay.

As a means to get a conversation going however, I saw more merit in this thread, which is why I didn't reply and waited to see where it would go..

Originally Posted by Lukie

1 more thing

I guess the question is what would you need to be holding to call the raise/play back at him? He'll play 22 like the nuts in position (kinda like Fnord).

Fnord, unless he's gone suicidal maniac since I've played with him, is a good, solid TAgg. I don't know why everyone thinks he's this crazy laggtard.

Don't get me wrong...Nowhere did I say, or would I ever say, Fnord is a crazy laggtard. What I meant by that comment is that Fnord knows how to use position with any two and will, representing strong lines with air at times. The hands posted in IRBusto's thread are very enlightening about his style, btw. I've never had the pleasure of playing against Fnord (as far as I know) but would certainly love to have the opportunity.

Your comments on my question are appreciated. Yeah, I guess it is too general.

LOL guys this is a simple question actually since you both have pairs in the hole and neither the flop or the turn will help either of you.

If your opponent will raise the flop with any pair (even lower than some of the cards on the board):

On the flop there are 3 cards lower than your pair so the lowest pair you can have is 55

If you have 55 there are 0 pairs (board must be 432, opponent doesnt have set) that your opponent can have that you beat and 9 that beat you. (13 possible pairs minus your pair and the 3 other pairs that would give him sets ie the three cards on the flop)
If you have 66 there is 1 pair that your opponent can have that you beat and 8 that beat you.
...
If you have TT there are 5 pairs that your opponent can have that you beat and 4 that beat you.
...
If you have AA there are 9 pairs that your opponent can have that you beat and 0 that beat you.

Therefore you should continue with TT and higher.

If he will only raise on the flop with a pair higher than the board then if the highest card on the board is:

4 - Possible pairs higher than the board are 55,66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA and you need to have TT or higher.
5 - Possible pairs are 66,77,88,99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA
so you also need TT or higher
6 - JJ or higher
7 - JJ or higher
8 - QQ or higher
9 - QQ or higher
T - KK or AA
J - KK or AA
Q - AA

Nice.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Lukie

1 more thing

I guess the question is what would you need to be holding to call the raise/play back at him? He'll play 22 like the nuts in position (kinda like Fnord).

Fnord, unless he's gone suicidal maniac since I've played with him, is a good, solid TAgg. I don't know why everyone thinks he's this crazy laggtard.

Don't get me wrong...Nowhere did I say, or would I ever say, Fnord is a crazy laggtard. What I meant by that comment is that Fnord knows how to use position with any two and will, representing strong lines with air at times. The hands posted in IRBusto's thread are very enlightening about his style, btw. I've never had the pleasure of playing against Fnord (as far as I know) but would certainly love to have the opportunity.

Your comments on my question are appreciated. Yeah, I guess it is too general.

Over a sample size of several thousand hands of playing with Fnord in the past, I can honestly say I never remember him playing a really big pot without the goods. He would absolutely say the same thing about me.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Over a sample size of several thousand hands of playing with Fnord in the past, I can honestly say I never remember him playing a really big pot without the goods. He would absolutely say the same thing about me.

Sure but your definition of "the goods" would have to include an OESD. Thats not really what most people consider to be the goods.

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by Lukie

Over a sample size of several thousand hands of playing with Fnord in the past, I can honestly say I never remember him playing a really big pot without the goods. He would absolutely say the same thing about me.

Sure but your definition of "the goods" would have to include an OESD. Thats not really what most people consider to be the goods.

pwned.

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by Lukie

Over a sample size of several thousand hands of playing with Fnord in the past, I can honestly say I never remember him playing a really big pot without the goods. He would absolutely say the same thing about me.

Sure but your definition of "the goods" would have to include an OESD. Thats not really what most people consider to be the goods.

pwned.

Well, to be fair, the hand posted recently where Fnord went AI with OESD was a PUSH by Fnord, not a Call. Big difference as he thought he could push the guy off his overpair. For the record, I think Fnord is really good but the more I try and emulate him the more $ I loose. It’s just not my style and I can’t implement it. I toasted off $200 in the first hr of play last night and just left. GG extended downswings!

Originally Posted by EricE

For the record, I think Fnord is really good but the more I try and emulate him the more $ I loose. It’s just not my style and I can’t implement it. I toasted off $200 in the first hr of play last night and just left. GG extended downswings!

I think that happens because you are too anxious to try it out.

I have often changed strategies, like Lagg 40/20, Slagg 30/10, Tagg 22/12, floating 40/0 etc, just to see what it's like. Also postflop, but I don't have names for that. Sometimes conservative, like mostly value bets, sometimes "going allin a lot" etc.

I only really get it to work if the table is right for it, and I don't try to force it to work, but stick to the "rules" of the strategy..

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by Lukie

Over a sample size of several thousand hands of playing with Fnord in the past, I can honestly say I never remember him playing a really big pot without the goods. He would absolutely say the same thing about me.

Sure but your definition of "the goods" would have to include an OESD. Thats not really what most people consider to be the goods.

pwned.

Well, to be fair, the hand posted recently where Fnord went AI with OESD was a PUSH by Fnord, not a Call. Big difference as he thought he could push the guy off his overpair. For the record, I think Fnord is really good but the more I try and emulate him the more $ I loose. It’s just not my style and I can’t implement it. I toasted off $200 in the first hr of play last night and just left. GG extended downswings!

For what it's worth, the pot in question was raised with 18bb in the pot on the flop and 70bb effective stacks when I figured to have ~11 outs against what I figured to be a medium-strong pre-flop hand. Meh on my line there. I used to pull that crap off way too often and in unraised pots which I've since come to realize is a leak.

As a very successful small stakes full ring limit player, picking spots to play a big one is an area of constant growth for me. Also, sometimes raising it up can make your life much more difficult. It takes time, experience and paying off a few stacks to get a feel for how people (mis)adjust to an aggressor. Another growth area.

I think the big difference between me and more medicore players is that I embrace the concept that poker is a gambling game. Sometimes I just gamble it up in close spots and it does create swings. However, it also makes me more difficult to play against and gets people to misread me horribly in spots and against opponents where I play a very tight game.

Originally Posted by EricE

For the record, I think Fnord is really good but the more I try and emulate him the more $ I loose. It’s just not my style and I can’t implement it.

I looked at your hand posts, didn't find many and found your reads lacking. Building lots of big pots with weak cards is both swingy and will get you bust without good information. I've dropped a lot of money in spots where I've blown/mistaken/ignored/over-looked a read.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by EricE

For the record, I think Fnord is really good but the more I try and emulate him the more $ I loose. It’s just not my style and I can’t implement it.

I looked at your hand posts, didn't find many and found your reads lacking. Building lots of big pots with weak cards is both swingy and will get you bust without good information. I've dropped a lot of money in spots where I've blown/mistaken/ignored/over-looked a read.

Hehe. I know.
My reads have been the weakest part of my game for a while now and I know it. To combat that I play 2 tables only…Any less and I just can’t stay focused and I’ll end up watching TV or something. Even so, half the people at my table are people I SHOULD have playstyles memorized on…and I just don’t. I should have a list of exploitable attributes on these people.
I guess I’ll re-dedicate myself to learning how to read cause I just don’t make conclusions beyond good/bad/terrible…tight/loose/very loose.
OK, I am off to search some posts on Reads. Please return to your regularly scheduled thread. Hehe.

How high does your pair need to be to go to showdown?

Higher than his?

Value bet, either 100bbs of value or 20. If you mean however are my sevens on a 6high board good vs what maybe 8s that he has then erm...get a read? Their cant be a minimum here, you simply decide whether or not your hand is goot.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

How high does your pair need to be to go to showdown?

Higher than his?

POTD

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

How high does your pair need to be to go to showdown?

Higher than his?

Value bet, either 100bbs of value or 20. If you mean however are my sevens on a 6high board good vs what maybe 8s that he has then erm...get a read? Their cant be a minimum here, you simply decide whether or not your hand is goot.

What I was trying to elicit is how low a pair will you showdown with no further information. As lukie said, too general a question...

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

How high does your pair need to be to go to showdown?

Higher than his?

Value bet, either 100bbs of value or 20. If you mean however are my sevens on a 6high board good vs what maybe 8s that he has then erm...get a read? Their cant be a minimum here, you simply decide whether or not your hand is goot.

What I was trying to elicit is how low a pair will you showdown with no further information. As lukie said, too general a question...

do we need to show them down?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

do we need to show them down?

...'continue'...would be more precise.